Transpennine Express decide not to use MK3's on limited services

[Bovverboy]

Now that TPE have reloaded the timetable, it would appear that the loco sets will work the diagrams starting at Liverpool at 05:56 and 06:56

The one starting at 0556 is scheduled to do three round trips to Scarborough and back (second and third trips at 1156 and 1756 ex Lime Street) but the 0656 terminates at Manchester Victoria on its way back from its third trip.

Can't see any sign of loco-hauled workings at weekends.

There's been a fair amount of mention (probably, on other threads) of the intention to stop the Liverpool to Scarborough trains at Lea Green and the Liverpool to Newcastle at Newton-le-Willows. That, it seems, is going to be the general routine, but there are exceptions, as follows.
0520 Liverpool to Newcastle stops at both
0556 Liverpool to Scarborough stops at neither
2024 & 2124 Liverpool to Newcastle stop at both
2224 Liverpool to York stops at both
1803, 1853, 2003 and 2100 Newcastle to Liverpool stop at both
The evening trains listed above all run after the Scarborough trains have finished.
The above applies to Monday to Friday services, I haven't checked weekends.

 

[Goldie]

Do the loco hauled services start from the May timetable change? And will they be preceded by test runs? I got a distant view of a train heading away from Scarborough at about half past eight this morning that looked longer and more pointy than a Class 185...

 

[BMIFlyer]

Do the loco hauled services start from the May timetable change? And will they be preceded by test runs? I got a distant view of a train heading away from Scarborough at about half past eight this morning that looked longer and more pointy than a Class 185...

Test runs have run in the past but not to Scarborough. A class 68 has been there in the past however.

The crew training is currently ongoing and the test trains run from Crewe to Liverpool or Carlisle depending on the pathing.

The Mk3s and 68's are cleared now as far as I'm aware for the bits that they weren't cleared on previously, notably Leeds to Huddersfield.

 

[xotGD]

Now that TPE have reloaded the timetable, it would appear that the loco sets will work the diagrams starting at Liverpool at 05:56 and 06:56

Not exactly user friendly for Leeds to Manchester commuting

 

[EE Andy b1]

Not exactly user friendly for Leeds to Manchester commuting

Let's give them a chance!
Not even running yet.
How about let all the traincrew get trained up. Let's get these nice new MK5s for the December timetable and see where we go from there.
You never know you might then get a user friendly Leeds to Manchester commute.
At the very least they should release two 185s for elsewhere.

Good on TPE for getting on with this.

I look forward to future Transpennine crossing.

 

[marcouk2]

Not exactly user friendly for Leeds to Manchester commuting

Have you looked at the diagrams they go on to work?

The second of the two trains does Huddersfield 0800/Leeds 0818 and then works back and forth all day before leaving Leeds 1706 in the evening, I'm sure lots of people will find the extra capacity of that train useful nevermind the potential for two other services to have double the capacity with the released 185s.

 

[Starmill]

Good on TPE for getting on with this.

Yeah, they are really getting on with it.

The Franchise Agreement specifies this stock to be, using 'all reasonable endeavors' "capable of unrestricted passenger carrying service by no later than 1 April 2017.".

 

[EE Andy b1]

The Franchise Agreement specifies this stock to be, using 'all reasonable endeavors' "capable of unrestricted passenger carrying service by no later than 1 April 2017.".

I wonder who's real fault that is? TPE or that farce we call our government.
One of the reason TPE went to CAF was of an earlier build date for the small amount of rolling stock required. Which couldn't be ordered until the franchise was given.
But maybe you would rather have government decide on all future rolling stock procurement as they've made a really good job of that up to now.
You might have even got that on time with there passenger considered interiors and seating.

So yes i again say well done TPE with getting on with it.

Three new train types to come on stream that look as though passenger comfort has been considered for a change.

My own TOC has only been delayed by six years up to now.
I wonder how and by whom that came about? Hopefully will now know next year for investment from 0200 on 15th September 2019.

So how do you build for the future when you still don't know when or who will be running that franchise. Starved of investment because our government don't know what they really want. Apart from huge premium returns.

 

[Starmill]

I wonder who's real fault that is? TPE or that farce we call our government.

I don't presume to make such judgements.
Why do you feel especially well informed to do so? The point I was making was that they were very late, which wasn't something you'd seemed to realise.

The stock has been in store for quite some time now. I have no idea why it has been in store rather than being worked on and pressed into service, as per the franchise agreement.

 

[scarby]

Do the loco hauled services start from the May timetable change? And will they be preceded by test runs? I got a distant view of a train heading away from Scarborough at about half past eight this morning that looked longer and more pointy than a Class 185...

I don't know what this was.

According to RTT, there were TPE empty coaching stock moves yesterday pathed as "Diesel Multiple Unit", running from Scarborough at 10.10 (not clear how it got to Scarborough in the first place), arriving back from York at 11.52, out again at 12.10 and back in Scarborough again at 13.57.

No idea what that was or was all about, what happened to whatever it was after 13.57 is not stated.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I don't presume to make such judgements.
Why do you feel especially well informed to do so?

Maybe i just open my eyes a bit more and actually see whats happening!!

Yes i understood the MK3s are very late in being used and had been in store at Plymouth Laira and then Crewe LNWR but because of the knock on effect with the franchising the whole process gets knocked back and runs late also, Maintenance, gauging, training of traincrew, and why was that!

I'm sure it will all be worth the wait it in the end.

 

[43096]

Maybe i just open my eyes a bit more and actually see whats happening!!

Yes i understood the MK3s are very late in being used and had been in store at Plymouth Laira and then Crewe LNWR but because of the knock on effect with the franchising the whole process gets knocked back and runs late also, Maintenance, gauging, training of traincrew, and why was that!

I'm sure it will all be worth the wait it in the end.

I'm not buying that as an excuse. The Mark 3s have been on lease to TPE since the start of the franchise (though sub-leased to Anglia for the first 6 months or so). What have they been doing since?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The version of the TPE franchise agreement on the DfT web site calls for the 2 sets of Mk3 coaches to be in service by 30 September 2016.
Penalties for late availability are stipulated to be agreed between TPE/DfT.
So by no stretch of imagination have TPE been "getting on with it".
Running one non-refurbished set late on new year's eve sounds like someone was having a laugh.
And the continual delay in all the new rolling stock programmes erodes the notion that the Mk5s were purchased because of the short lead times.
Unlike Northern, TPE has not been materially affected by the delayed electrification projects.

38.3
The Franchisee shall ensure that sufficient appropriate locomotives are available to it to enable the two sets of Mark III coaches to be available for unrestricted passenger carrying service by no later than 30 September 2016.

 

[xotGD]

Have you looked at the diagrams they go on to work?

The second of the two trains does Huddersfield 0800/Leeds 0818 and then works back and forth all day before leaving Leeds 1706 in the evening, I'm sure lots of people will find the extra capacity of that train useful nevermind the potential for two other services to have double the capacity with the released 185s.

Exactly. Easy to get for those commuting into Leeds, going in the opposite direction for those who commute Leeds to Manchester.

 

[37201xoIM]

HUD-LDS is a very strong commuting flow, far more so than HUD-XMC. It's also generally those flows of that sort of distance that are the strongest for commuting (not for all journey purposes) rather than Leeds - Manchester or vice versa right through. So there's sense in putting capacity on to serve these flows.

 

[Goldie]

I don't know what this was.

According to RTT, there were TPE empty coaching stock moves yesterday pathed as "Diesel Multiple Unit", running from Scarborough at 10.10 (not clear how it got to Scarborough in the first place), arriving back from York at 11.52, out again at 12.10 and back in Scarborough again at 13.57.

No idea what that was or was all about, what happened to whatever it was after 13.57 is not stated.

I see what you mean - there aren't any departures around that time from Scarbs. Does RTT ever miss out rolling stock movements? Incidentally, my view was from the top of Seamer Moor Lane and the train was on the straight between Seamer and Ganton.

 

[IanXC]

I don't know what this was.

According to RTT, there were TPE empty coaching stock moves yesterday pathed as "Diesel Multiple Unit", running from Scarborough at 10.10 (not clear how it got to Scarborough in the first place), arriving back from York at 11.52, out again at 12.10 and back in Scarborough again at 13.57.

No idea what that was or was all about, what happened to whatever it was after 13.57 is not stated.

These were formed of 185 units.

 

[47802]

The version of the TPE franchise agreement on the DfT web site calls for the 2 sets of Mk3 coaches to be in service by 30 September 2016.
Penalties for late availability are stipulated to be agreed between TPE/DfT.
So by no stretch of imagination have TPE been "getting on with it".
Running one non-refurbished set late on new year's eve sounds like someone was having a laugh.
And the continual delay in all the new rolling stock programmes erodes the notion that the Mk5s were purchased because of the short lead times.
Unlike Northern, TPE has not been materially affected by the delayed electrification projects.

Well that's not quite true is it they have had to lend 185's to Northern longer than originally intended and allegedly will still be lending a couple in the new timetable. Running T&T Slam Door MK3's strikes me as a very cumbersome operation on todays very busy North TPE route so if I were them I would try and avoid running them if possible.

As for the MK5's well TPE are dependent on how quickly the manufacturer can build them and they are still likely to be a quicker arrival than the only other likely alternative of an entire fleet of 802's

 

[Mathew S]

The version of the TPE franchise agreement on the DfT web site calls for the 2 sets of Mk3 coaches to be in service by 30 September 2016.
Penalties for late availability are stipulated to be agreed between TPE/DfT.
So by no stretch of imagination have TPE been "getting on with it".
Running one non-refurbished set late on new year's eve sounds like someone was having a laugh.
And the continual delay in all the new rolling stock programmes erodes the notion that the Mk5s were purchased because of the short lead times.
Unlike Northern, TPE has not been materially affected by the delayed electrification projects.

The section of the franchise agreement you've word doesn't actually say that the MK3s have to be in service by that date, only that TPE must ensure there are enough locomotives available. Not quite the same thing.

 

[yorkie]

Does RTT ever miss out rolling stock movements?

Open data feeds do not show all movements, I don't think VSTP (very short term plan) movements are shown.

 

[Harbornite]

Does RTT ever miss out rolling stock movements? Incidentally, my view was from the top of Seamer Moor Lane and the train was on the straight between Seamer and Ganton.

I recommend using trackit, slightly less user friendly than RTT but it tends to show the VSTPs that RTT doesn't.

 

[D1009]

I recommend using trackit, slightly less user friendly than RTT but it tends to show the VSTPs that RTT doesn't.

AIUI all the sites use the same source data. RTT does show VSTPs, but not all the VSTPs make it into NR's open data feeds.

 

[Mark62]

Why are these train top and tailed? Why can't they run around?
Oops that costs money and takes skills that drivers may not have any more.
At newcastle , Scarborough and Liverpool there's no reason why these trains can't be single loco as the facilities exist to easily do so. Scarborough and Newcastle are like ghost stations these days with very little moving through them.
It's a waste of a loco to top and tail.
I'm not sure today's cosseted drivers know how to hook on and off anymore. They are so used to fixed formations and computers running the trains. It take skill and precision to hook on and off. They may be lost skills these days
We are supposed to short of rolling stock and yet we see trains top and tailed without reason. They are now using two 68s between Carlise and Barrow with three carriages. What a waste when both stations have run round facilities. It seems there's plenty of rolling stock available when the taxpayer funds the bill.
Bring back proper trains with one loco, trained staff and run arounds. It saves money in the long run. Then again, the current system of franchising is a licence for TOC to print money.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why are these train top and tailed? Why can't they run around?
Oops that costs money and takes skills that drivers may not have any more.
At newcastle , Scarborough and Liverpool there's no reason why these trains can't be single loco as the facilities exist to easily do so. Scarborough and Newcastle are like ghost stations these days with very little moving through them.
It's a waste of a loco to top and tail.
I'm not sure today's cosseted drivers know how to hook on and off anymore. They are so used to fixed formations and computers running the trains. It take skill and precision to hook on and off. They may be lost skills these days
We are supposed to short of rolling stock and yet we see trains top and tailed without reason. They are now using two 68s between Carlise and Barrow with three carriages. What a waste when both stations have run round facilities. It seems there's plenty of rolling stock available when the taxpayer funds the bill.
Bring back proper trains with one loco, trained staff and run arounds. It saves money in the long run. Then again, the current system of franchising is a licence for TOC to print money.

I'm sure you'll get a bite there... where's my popcorn?

 

[transmanche]

Scarborough and Newcastle are like ghost stations these days with very little moving through them.

Alston has only one shop? Newcastle is a ghost station?

 

[rebmcr]

It's a waste of a loco to top and tail.

We are supposed to short of rolling stock

Tell me more about locos being rolling stock...

 

[Chrisyd]

Why are these train top and tailed? Why can't they run around?
Oops that costs money and takes skills that drivers may not have any more.
At newcastle , Scarborough and Liverpool there's no reason why these trains can't be single loco as the facilities exist to easily do so.

I thought that the run around tracks at Liverpool Lime Street are being removed as part of the modernisation works which are ongoing?

 

[louis97]

Why are these train top and tailed? Why can't they run around?
Oops that costs money and takes skills that drivers may not have any more.

Turnaround time is limited at each end, especially at Scarborough, for a start. I'd much rather have a loco at each end and do a quicker turnaround if running late than still have to do the run around.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Why are these train top and tailed? Why can't they run around?
...
Bring back proper trains with one loco, trained staff and run arounds. It saves money in the long run. ....

Long term money saving (since the 1980s at least) has come from having easily reversible trains, removing the costs associated with staff on the ground and pointwork to maintain, and reducing congestion (extra movements) at ever-busier stations.
The T+T Mk3s are a short-term fix.
For the long run, TP are saving more money by introducing "proper" trains with one loco, trained staff and no run arounds (i.e. a driving trailer at the other end).

 

[notlob.divad]

I thought that the run around tracks at Liverpool Lime Street are being removed as part of the modernisation works which are ongoing?

The ability to 'run around' at Lime Street went a long time ago, certainly before the current modernisation. The modernisation is getting rid of the next siding, which would have allowed a 2nd loco to wait and back onto the rolling stock in the platform, but again it hasn't been used for ages due to no safe way for driver to exit the loco whilst it is there.

Recent Specials (Football / Grand National /etc ) have had a 2nd loco approach from Edge Hill, and attach. It has then been 'top and tailed' empty back to Crewe where both locos run around before returning to Lime Street empty read for the return working. For occasional specials this works, but to do something similar every hour would require 2 extra paths in and out of Lime Street which would be much better used by passenger services.