TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by tothetrains, 20 May 2018.

  1. tothetrains

    tothetrains Member

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    I see that in the new May 2018 Timetable change, TPE now call at all the local stations between Leeds and Stalybridge in some way.
    Does anyone know how this works in a tph kind of way?
    I've noticed that the express services now go into Victoria whilst the new semi-fasts will terminate at Piccadilly. This is especially confusing considering how the expresses often go to the airport (the rest going to Liverpool as I can see), I assume they use the Ordsall chord in some way.

    Also, in a point that nobody seems to be making, does the Dft not realise how crowded transpennine services are normally? How could they have allowed this to happen? TransPennine express services between Leeds and Manchester are well known for being the most overcrowded in the country. They're nearly always only 3 CARS and they have the job of transporting people between two of the biggest cities in the UK?
    And now that TPE calls at the local stations, you can bet that passenger numbers will increase at those stations given the new fancy express service they've received.
    And to finish this off, I feel exceptionally sorry for the people of Hull. You get 1 TPE every hour and it's always the most crowded one, and now TPE have decided to pour salt into wounds and make it call at 3 additional stations, increasing the number of passengers massively.
    Well done TPE and the Dft.

    Sorry for the rant, I saw the changes on the google maps planner and needed to vent. I hope you can excuse me.
     
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  3. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    From Manchester to Huddersfield, it's a change from five/hour TPE (plus one Norther stopper) to six/hour TPE.

    From Huddersfield to Leeds, it's a change from five/hour TPE (plus one Norther stopper) to six/hour TPE.

    From Manchester to Leeds, it's a change from five/hour TPE to six/hour TPE.

    In a year or two the TPE services will generally be five coaches (802s or mk5s) with six coach 185s on the Hull services, so a capacity increase on pretty much every service.

    Given all of the competing demands on the trans-pennine route, this is probably about as sensible a compromise as you could have with existing infrastructure (half hourly to Liverpool/ Newcastle/ Manchester Airport, finding space for six trains per hour from Manchester to Leeds by removing the slow Northern stopper to make room). Hull gets a slower service, sure, but somewhere would have to - do you put the Marsden (etc) stops in the Newcastle/ Middlesbrough/ Liverpool/ Manchester Airport services instead? Tricky.
     
  4. cprc

    cprc New Member

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    All the 'local' stations get a 1tph service plus extras at Stalybridge (2tph) and Dewsbury (3tph). There are also extras in the peaks plus other northern services calling at stations Huddersfield to Leeds and Manchester to Stalybridge.

    The Man Pic -- Leeds train (which serves most local stations) gets overtaken by a fast TPE between Huddersfield and Leeds so I think the hope is that Manchester - Leeds passengers will avoid this meaning most of the patronage will be local passengers. This means capacity is actually a step up on the northern services it replaces which were often only 2 carriages.

    Yes Hull gets a slightly worse service but most of the time the Hull train only makes 2 extra stops (at fairly quiet stations Slaithwaite and Mossley). Also this will be upgraded to 6 carriages once new (5 carriage) trains are introduced on other TPE services.
     
  5. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    2 out of the 4 units that have been on loan to Northern since TPE Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere services transferred 2 years ago have just returned to TPE. The Lime Street closure starts in 10 days time and lasts until the end of July, saving 3 units until the 2 loco hauled sets enter service. The 6th North TPE service requires 3 units and the extension of a second service to Newcastle requires 2 extra units. However, running Liverpool to Scarborough via Chat Moss saves 1 unit. Therefore TPE is short by 2 units for the next 10 days, then Lime Street is closed and then the 2 loco hauled sets enter service providing more seats than a single 185. TPE will be overcrowded until new stock arrives but the new timetable won't make things worse.
     
  6. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

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    What makes you think that DfT cares about passenger comfort / overcrowding ?

    The same DfT that seems to have done nothing visible about ending the conductor / guards disputes for over a year - despite many passengers being badly inconvenienced.?
    The DfT which insisted on reduced the number of Class 185s being obtained, and which prevented them from being built with 4 coaches.?
    The DfT which is saddling the super-expensive Class 800s with "super-comfortable seats" ?
    The DfT which should have been able to block the revised EU regulations about electrification clearances - but failed to do so, thereby helping to make UK electrification almost unaffordable.
     
  7. nr758123

    nr758123 Member

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    Unfortunately most of the extras do not call at Slaithwaite or Marsden, whose peak frequency to/from Manchester drops to levels last seen in the 1980s.

    Off-peak, capacity appears to be similar. Not at peak times where Northern services were typically 4 x class 150, so a 3 carriage class 185 is a substantial reduction in capacity.

    At 205,000 & 322,000 passenger journeys pa, not as quiet as all that, and not at all quiet at peak times or when compared with other stations with only one train per hour. TPE, WYCA and TfGM have all acknowledged that overcrowding at peak times is likely to be a big problem.

    Passengers at these stations at peak times are the collateral damage of the DfT's silly obsession with being able to claim 6tph between Manchester and Leeds.
     
  8. lejog

    lejog Established Member

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    Your's is not the first rant on this subject ..... but to answer the only direct question you raise all the local stations between Stalybridge and Leeds receive the same service (1/2 tph) as now. Calls have been
    redistributed between the new TPE Leeds-Manchester service replacing the Northern stoppers, the existing TPE Hull and Northern Brighouse services.

    Sorry if the new Northern Hub timetable with vast increases in capacity through Mancbester is confusing, but change has a cost. It has been in the pipeline for 7 years now.

    Yes train lengths have long been known to be inadequate, but there is a lead time for ordering new stock and all services will be 5 or 6 car within the next few years (even the Huddersfield-Manchester peak hour extras).
     
    Last edited: 20 May 2018
  9. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Presumably Northern will need less units also with the Lime Street Blockade?

    Northern are also running some peak time services between Huddersfield and Manchester via Marsden calling at these stations.
     
  10. nr758123

    nr758123 Member

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    Not at peak times they don't. Most of Northern's peak extras for Manchester commuters miss out Marsden, all of them miss out Slaithwaite. Slaithwaite to Manchester in the morning peak goes from 5 trains down to 3. Manchester to Slaithwaite in the evening peak goes from 6 trains down to 3.
     
  11. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    Immediately prior to Northern taking over the Blackpool, Barrow, and Windermere services TPE had been hiring 6 x 156s per day from them - this was, iirc, to make up for the loss of the 170s. When the services transferred the 156s & 185s continued doing what they had done before, but instead of TPE hiring from NT, it was the other way round. So at that point TPE didn't gain or lose any 185s.
    The number of 185s on hire to NT reduced from four to three (for most of the day) from July 2016. Four units would stable at NT depots overnight (previously it had been five) but one of those would return to TPE as soon as it had done a single journey Barrow - Manchester Airport. From December 2017 the number stabled at NT depots reduced to three, but it was still three in use during the daytime. I don't know whether or not anything changed when the Blackpool line reopened.

    The Lime Street closure only saves two units, one off Scarborough and one off Newcastle.

    I make it three units - the five extra, less the one returning from NT and the one saved on Scarborough.
    I'm taking you word that an extra two units are going to be needed for Newcastle, I haven't checked it out.

     
    Last edited: 21 May 2018
  12. MontyP

    MontyP Member

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    The Piccadilly to Hull trains have gone from typically 1hr 54 with 6 intermediate stops to 1hr 58 with 10 intermediate stops (extra stops at Mossley, Slaithwaite, Batley and Garforth). So effectively Hull's semi-fast service from Manchester has been converted into a stopper to allow an extra fast service to Newcastle. Does the demand on the Newcastle route really justify this increase in frequency at Hull's expense, or would greater capacity on an hourly link be sufficient? And surely a fast train every 15 mins between Manchester and Leeds (with 1 or 2 stops) is frequent enough, as long as the trains are big enough to provide sufficient capacity? This could be achieved by diverting one of the fast Newcastle trains to Hull and cutting back the Manc - Hull to terminate at Leeds.
     
  13. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    As a fairly regular user of the Leeds-Newcastle portion, and an occasional user of the Leeds-Hull section I'd say the demand for fast & through services to Leeds & Manchester beyond is far greater on the former. It isn't ideal for Hull users I admit, but save a few peaks there really isn't anything like the demand of the North-East route. Perhaps some Hull services could have been joined at Leeds with one of the fasts through to Liverpool, but then additional units would have been needed for the skip-stopper plus you'd have all the problems of keeping timings & finding suitable platforms for joining / separating when things go wrong.

    All in all, a four minute loss isn't that bad provided that the timetables can be kept to (which to be fair remains to be seen). OK four extra stops might be a pain but is either that or change at Leeds for a fast that might overtake?
     
  14. wellhouse

    wellhouse Member

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    Monday-Saturday Hull services also have two further additional stops at Batley and Garforth.
     
  15. MontyP

    MontyP Member

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    Ok but the Manchester-Hull service was slow anyway. I would argue that one fast service from each of the 4 eastern destinations (Hull, Scarborough, Middlesbrough, Newcastle) should be the basis of the timetable. Meet the capacity (as opposed to frequency) demands through length of train. If extra frequency is required on certain legs then have extra services just on those legs, provided by either TPE or another operator (I think Northern are going to introduce extra Hull-Leeds and Scarborough-York services at some point). There is already an hourly Newcastle-Leeds on XC - surely 2 direct services per hour is sufficient on that route if the train capacity is tailored to meet demand? I know everyone wants "turn up and go" frequency on every inter-urban route but where this can only be satisfied by sacrificing an essential fast link for a major city like Hull then I'm not sure that this is appropriate.
     
  16. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    A four-minute longer journey is hardly 'sacrificing an essential fast link'!
     
  17. MontyP

    MontyP Member

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    Perhaps I should have said the "perception" of a fast link. It was already relatively slow compared to some other TPE services due to the Stalybridge and Dewsbury stops.
     
  18. notlob.divad

    notlob.divad Member

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    The whole thing was done simply to provide a through train from Newcastle to Manchester Airport and thus justify the building of the Ordsall Chord. If it was simply a case of matching end points on either side of the Pennines, to me, it would have made more sense to run the Scarborough service as the skip-stop to Manchester, and have Hull run fast and continue on to Liverpool. However I guess it has been done this way to keep the York-Manchester section as close to clock-face 4tph as they can.
     
  19. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    I know that the long term aspiration is to have fast services to & from Hull, but with all the changes to operators, rolling stock, and possibly infrastructure there are always going to be winners and losers until things pan out a bit more. I'm a regular traveller to Warrington & Birchwood and have now lost that direct connection, at least until the Northern Leeds-Chester service starts at the end of the year (which itself will be slower & longer than the previous TPEs).
     
  20. hibtastic

    hibtastic Member

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    A lot of late trains at Stalybridge this morning.
     
  21. Kieran1990

    Kieran1990 Member

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    Looking at departures across the entire northern TPE core route it’s a similar story. Seems the timetable as some aches and pains but I hold hope that when I go back to work next week my commute from Leeds to Manchester, the service would have settled down.
     
  22. nr758123

    nr758123 Member

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    I just want a reliable and frequent train service. We knew we weren't getting a frequent service, and if the first two days of the new timetable are anything to go by reliable doesn't appear to be on offer either. Merely looking for TPE to be less useless than Northern was setting the bar very low, but so far they have fallen short even of that.

    Hope TPE can improve on a poor start.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 23 May 2018
  23. mike57

    mike57 Member

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    Well the performance today on the York - Scarborough section has been dire, many trains 20 mins late and two cancellations, with all but one of the decent connections at Seamer down the coast to Filey missed, and even the one that one might have been missed, it was very close.

    This performance is appalling, in any other business head would roll, but no doubt all the old excuses will be rolled out.

    My train due to arrive at 17:25 was cancelled, I caught the bus from Malton. Not looking forwards to a trip to Preston Thursday, York tomorrow, so we will see if things improve

    Here is a breakdown from Seamer today.

    Arr SEM from YRK--------- Dep to Filey
    TT ---------- ACT --------- ACT Missed
    07:15 ------ 07:14
    08:25------08:39------08:32 Yes
    09:25------09:32------ 10:05
    10:25------10:45
    11:25------11:39------11:38 Probably
    12:25 Cancelled
    13:25 ------13:49------ 13:31 Yes
    14:25------14:46------15:03
    15:25------15:46
    16:25------16:45------16:30 Yes
    17:25 Cancelled------18:03 Yes
    18:24------18:36
    19:25 19:51
     
  24. paddyb6

    paddyb6 Member

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    Hello, I am just wondering if this is true and that the TP 68s are running with the Mk3s

    This is an extract from:
    http://www.railtourinfo.co.uk/locohauled26.html

    TransPennine Express


    DRS Class 68 + Mk3 TSO + TSO + TSO + FO + DRS Class 68

    Runs Monday - Friday
    21st May 2018 until 20th July 2018


    1F58 08:46 Scarborough - Liverpool Lime Street (a. 11:31)
    1F60 09:46 Scarborough - Liverpool Lime Street (a. 12:32)
    1F70 14:46 Scarborough - Liverpool Lime Street (a. 17:38)
    1F72 15:46 Scarborough - Liverpool Lime Street (a. 18:31)
    1F82 20:50 Scarborough - Liverpool Lime Street (a. 23:35)
    1F84 21:49 Scarborough - Manchester Victoria (a. 23:54)

    1E23 05:56 Liverpool Lime Street - Scarborough (a. 08:33)
    1E25 06:56 Liverpool Lime Street - Scarborough (a. 09:33)
    1E35 11:56 Liverpool Lime Street - Scarborough (a. 14:33)
    1E37 12:56 Liverpool Lime Street - Scarborough (a. 15:33)
    1E47 17:56 Liverpool Lime Street - Scarborough (a. 20:33)
    1E49 18:56 Liverpool Lime Street - Scarborough (a. 21:33)

    Thanks
    Paddy
     
  25. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    PIS at Mirfield could do with some extra punctuation. Current message for the delayed 2038 Wigan to Leeds:
    Seems like there's some severe "teething problems" with the new timetable.

    I do feel that many journeys on the route that aren't the main flow are being unfairly inconvenienced in pursuit of the (arbitrary) six trains per hour goal.
    Batley to Mirfield passengers now realistically have 1 train per hour due to the inconvenient connection into the Calder Valley service. Hull passengers are also unhappy as they now have their service downgraded. The extra stops aren't much of a problem but the overcrowding due to 2 services being rolled into one (Hull express + Leeds to Huddersfield locals) without any major increase in capacity, IS a problem.

    At the very least, the big change should've been delayed for 6 months IMO.
     
  26. Crossover

    Crossover Established Member

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    As you can probably imagine, I have been keeping a watch over proceedings at Mirfield over the day. At least no TPE stoppers were cancelled, though some started/terminated short (Staly) and some ran with significant delays. Quite a few Northern cancellations including the first few Huddersfield - Kirkgate shuttles and 3 services in a row in the evening peak to Manchester Victoria and beyond.

    I was around for the 08:47 service yesterday (first service westbound) which ran a little late, as did my 09:00 stopper to Leeds. The journey back was smooth though (from Leeds - I managed to find one that wasn't cancelled!) and only about a minute late by Mirfield - I feel some of that will be sorted in due course as it felt like stops were being approached with greater caution to get the stopping location right. On the return, it also seemed that all my fellow passengers had an aversion to the front coach, so I got it to myself, and it was definitely an upgrade on the usual Pacer as I sat there with WiFi, charging sockets and air conditioning!
     
  27. dilbertphil

    dilbertphil Member

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    68 locos and mk3's are not running in passenger service during the Lime Street blockade. Only time they are running is for driver training.
     
  28. td97

    td97 Member

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    https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-limited-services.144501/page-19#post-3455460
     
  29. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    I noticed the cautious approaches to stations too, along with the front cars being quieter.

    At Batley, Ravensthorpe and Mirfield, 'S' stop markers have been placed at the forwardmost point on the platforms. So at Batley heading west for example the unit will stop as far foward as possible. This might explain the front cars not being as busy.
     
  30. M60lad

    M60lad Member

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    Problems at the moment for TPE on their Liverpool Lime Street route due to the following:

    The emergency services are dealing with an incident between Huyton and Earlestown. As a result, some lines are blocked.

    Trains between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Victoria may be cancelled, delayed or revised. Disruption is expected until 12:30.
     
  31. xotGD

    xotGD Established Member

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    I'm sat on a train to the airport. Or so I thought. Due to late running (only about 12 mins) it is now terminating at Pic. Boo hiss.

    Apparently the same thing happened on this service yesterday (1P62 - 06:00 from Scarbados)
     

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