TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

[Bantamzen]

Absolute garbage service for Scarborough yesterday.

15.35 arrival / 15.46 departure cancelled as usual.

17.35 / 17.50 also cancelled.

19.35 / 19.46 also cancelled.

I don't know if all these were affected, but there were serious signal problems at Micklefield yesterday afternoon that caused a lot of problems.

 

[scarby]

Another cancellation at Scarborough! 10.35 in stopped at Leeds. 10.46 out cancelled.

 

[Bovverboy]

It really is unacceptable to cancel a service that only operates hourly anyway. I catch the train in Malton so it doesn’t affect me adversely - in fact the short turned service from Malton rarely has more than 50 passengers on it as far as York. However to chuck a train load of Scarborough bound passengers out at Malton where there is no waiting room, toilet, shop, etc is hugely inconvenient. And for those wanting to travel from Scarborough, a two hour service gap is just not on. It’s bad enough only seeing a 3 car set every hour, let alone every 2 hours

There's no excuse for not providing an RRB from Malton to Scarborough. Even if the short-turned train were 20L into Malton and the next were on time, the RRB would still get to Scarborough well before the next train. In any case there's the psychological advantage, on the RRB you'd be making progress, which is a big improvement on hanging around at an isolated railway station.

Coming back wouldn't be as easy, an xx.46 RRB from Scarborough wouldn't make it to Malton in time to connect with an xx.11 train departure, so the RRB would need to continue to York. But there again, it would get to York well before the next train.

 

[mike57]

On the 17:31 ex Manchester Vic heading home. Already 6 mins late and we hadn't reached Huddersfield yet in spite of leaving on time.

The other thing is how empty the train is, when I used to catch the 17:07 at Manchester Ox Rd in the old timetable it would be rammed, are people abandoning the train?

 

[Kieran1990]

On the 17:31 ex Manchester Vic heading home. Already 6 mins late and we hadn't reached Huddersfield yet in spite of leaving on time.

The other thing is how empty the train is, when I used to catch the 17:07 at Manchester Ox Rd in the old timetable it would be rammed, are people abandoning the train?

On the same train, it’s like this every night. We are either delayed Great Manchester side or Leeds side of of Hudds it’s a lottery to what will hold us up.
Tonight northern Picc-Hudds was 15ish late the TPE app shacks Picc-Leeds allowed to loop at Stayle then we had to follow the sprinter to Hudds

 

[NorthernSpirit]

...are people abandoning the train?

I wouldn't be too suprised if they have, passengers have either decided to use Coastliner, gone back to their cars or have probaby decided to travel via Hull if they're travelling to either Filey or Bridlington.

As we're rapidly approaching the summer season, I can only see problems between York and Scarborough getting even worse under the current timetable. How long will it be before members of rail staff are violently assaulted by either a family or a group of people because TPE have ruined their holiday? I can seeing something unpleasant happening before TPE finally act and introduce a self contained shuttle between York and Scarborough.

 

[Bevan Price]

There's no excuse for not providing an RRB from Malton to Scarborough. Even if the short-turned train were 20L into Malton and the next were on time, the RRB would still get to Scarborough well before the next train. In any case there's the psychological advantage, on the RRB you'd be making progress, which is a big improvement on hanging around at an isolated railway station.

But where do you find a spare bus - and driver - at short notice in Malton ? Not easy, when the "rail shamles" state seems to be unpredictable.

 

[Bovverboy]

But where do you find a spare bus - and driver - at short notice in Malton ? Not easy, when the "rail shamles" state seems to be unpredictable.

There appear to be 3 or 4 coach companies based in the Malton area, and Yorkshire Coastliner are based there too - well, at Norton.

 

[Bantamzen]

There appear to be 3 or 4 coach companies based in the Malton area, and Yorkshire Coastliner are based there too - well, at Norton.

They may be based there, but do they have spare capacity / drivers to have RRBs on standby just in case? Most companies don't employ tons of extra staff to sit around waiting on the off chance that they might get a short notice contract.

 

[scarby]

I'm pretty sure the 06.00 Scarborough to Manchester Airport hasn't managed to arrive at Manchester Airport on time even once on a weekday - not to mention the times it's been stopped at Manchester Picc.

Oh well, it's only into its fourth week of operation.

 

[yorkguy]

It always surprises me that Scarborough Council doesn’t try to exert any influence regarding it’s useless transport links (road and rail). You couldn’t imagine the councils in Blackpool, Brighton, Bournemouth, etc accepting what Scarborough does as a major seaside resort. It must cost millions in lost business, but the council seems totally impotent.

 

[Bantamzen]

It always surprises me that Scarborough Council doesn’t try to exert any influence regarding it’s useless transport links (road and rail). You couldn’t imagine the councils in Blackpool, Brighton, Bournemouth, etc accepting what Scarborough does as a major seaside resort. It must cost millions in lost business, but the council seems totally impotent.

Not strictly on-topic, but visit Scarborough & the many other places the council there preside over & you might have your answer. As a town it's spread it's influence a little to far & a little too thinly meaning that the places seem to suffer from what can only be described as mild neglect. For example, just ask the people of Whitby what they think of Scarborough council, just step well back before you do!

 

[mike57]

And yet another bad day at Scarborough 11.35 arrival and 11.46 departure cancelled at Scarborough 12.35 is 10 late and 13.45 is already 14 late, and a candidate for cancellation 2 of the day.

Really a York Scarborough shuttle seems like the only short term answer unless the whole timetable change is reversed (Northern and TPE).

 

[scarby]

It always surprises me that Scarborough Council doesn’t try to exert any influence regarding it’s useless transport links (road and rail). You couldn’t imagine the councils in Blackpool, Brighton, Bournemouth, etc accepting what Scarborough does as a major seaside resort. It must cost millions in lost business, but the council seems totally impotent.

I wouldn't say the rail links are "useless". Until this complete fiasco began last month, the rail service had been reliable. Okay, hourly isn't ideal, and I'm a big advocate of increasing that, but the service had gradually improved, with a better Sunday service, later finish, and supposedly with this useless new schedule, an earlier start.

When it worked properly it was easy to get on a train at Scarborough, make a quick connection at York and be in London in three hours total.

The main other failure is the general lack of recognition that passenger numbers spike markedly in the summer months (there's a little bit of reinforcement on Saturdays, but no other days), with a "one size fits all approach" that the same number of carriages and frequency that works on a wet Wednesday in January will do for a baking hot Friday in August. However, that seems to be a wider failing of the industry's modern approach.

 

[Bovverboy]

There appear to be 3 or 4 coach companies based in the Malton area, and Yorkshire Coastliner are based there too - well, at Norton.

They may be based there, but do they have spare capacity / drivers to have RRBs on standby just in case? Most companies don't employ tons of extra staff to sit around waiting on the off chance that they might get a short notice contract.

You seem determined to justify TPE's refusal to employ RRBs between Malton and Scarborough. Perhaps it would be better if TPE were to cease running between York and Scarborough altogether? Yorkshire Coastliner would soon find the extra buses and drivers they needed then.

 

[Bantamzen]

You seem determined to justify TPE's refusal to employ RRBs between Malton and Scarborough. Perhaps it would be better if TPE were to cease running between York and Scarborough altogether? Yorkshire Coastliner would soon find the extra buses and drivers they needed then.

Who is defending them not hiring RRBs? Did I say that? No I didn't! What I said, had you bothered to read it, was that local operators may not have had vehicles and / or drivers available to offer any RRBs. And unless you can categorically prove that there were both ready & available, and TPE refused to hire them then I conclude you are desperately looking for any reason to complain, regardless how relevant, something that is all to prevelant in today's society.

So I am not defending TPE so much as offering pragmatic explanations. Because life really isn't that simple as press a button & a solution magics it's way in...

 

[swissrailpassion]

Passengers left at Malton can walk across the road to the bus station for a bus to Scarborough in order to keep moving. I think a York shuttle service is the only way to restore the reliability at the moment. When Liverpool re-opens things may get even worse once more.

 

[mike57]

Passengers left at Malton can walk across the road to the bus station for a bus to Scarborough in order to keep moving. I think a York shuttle service is the only way to restore the reliability at the moment. When Liverpool re-opens things may get even worse once more.

I've done it a several times since 20th May, for those who are interested 843 leaves Malton for Scarborough at xx:45 most of the day (but check times early and late), and takes 50mins to Scarborough, also stops at Crossgates, get off at Crab Lane, which is 5mins (quick) walk from Seamer if your car is parked there. Works quite well with a 25 min late turf out at Malton. Come out of the station, you cant miss the bus station its on the opposite side of the road. Buses are modern, quite comfortable, and the stops are announced and displayed, so if you want Crab Lane you get warning. Remember to press the stop button as soon as Crab Lane is announced/displayed if you are getting off there, its a request stop.

Two points:
1. Bus to York/Leeds also leaves (840) also leaves around the same time, don't get on wrong bus
2. You have to buy a ticket, they obviously won't honour the rail ticket. Fare is £7 single

 

[30907]

Passengers left at Malton can walk across the road to the bus station for a bus to Scarborough in order to keep moving. I think a York shuttle service is the only way to restore the reliability at the moment. When Liverpool re-opens things may get even worse once more.

Worth noting that you reach Scarborough at the same time as the next TPE - assuming it's on time. Even a nonstop bus would only shave 10 minutes off the time, so I am not convinced that ad hoc bus replacements are worth it. A 185 and crew on standby at York would be far better, but sadly I don't see that happening.

 

[Bovverboy]

Who is defending them not hiring RRBs? Did I say that? No I didn't! What I said, had you bothered to read it, was that local operators may not have had vehicles and / or drivers available to offer any RRBs. And unless you can categorically prove that there were both ready & available, and TPE refused to hire them then I conclude you are desperately looking for any reason to complain, regardless how relevant, something that is all to prevelant in today's society.

So I am not defending TPE so much as offering pragmatic explanations. Because life really isn't that simple as press a button & a solution magics it's way in...

Contributors to this forum (including 'swissrailpassion' and 'mike57', above) have implied that there has never been an RRB provided when they have themselves been on a train which has been terminated at Malton, neither has there been any suggestion that TPE has attempted to provide one but have been unsuccessful. The implication, therefore, is that it is TPE policy to refrain from providing an RRB in the circumstances.

Could the regular travellers possibly enlighten me in respect of how much notice passengers on board receive of a Malton termination? The evidence seems to indicate that it varies. I remember seeing mention of what would have been a Scarborough train being shown on the screens at Huddersfield as terminating at Malton, but on the other hand I recall a Scarborough train still being shown on RTT as terminating at Scarborough, even when the return working was already being shown as commencing at Malton, implying that passengers on the Scarborough train were kept in the dark until as late as possible.
I would think better of TPE if passengers for Seamer and Scarborough were to be given the absolute option of alighting at York (in order to wait for the next train), with break of journey restrictions lifted of course.

 

[Bovverboy]

Worth noting that you reach Scarborough at the same time as the next TPE - assuming it's on time. Even a nonstop bus would only shave 10 minutes off the time, so I am not convinced that ad hoc bus replacements are worth it.

Assuming an xx.28 train arrival at Malton (i.e. 20L) you would hopefully have the RRB away by xx.35, i.e. with already a 10-minute advantage over the Coastliner. Assuming that a few possible stops by the Coastliner were to be balanced by the RRB's stop at Seamer, you would indeed finish up with only a ten-minute or so advantage over the next train, assuming the latter to be on time. But why would it be on time? If the train you were on were 20L, wouldn't the next one be as likely to be?

I did make the point that there is a psychological advantage in keeping moving. 'Mike57' clearly agrees, but there is the additional advantage for him in that the saving to Seamer over a following on-time train would be about 20 minutes. Anyone going to Seamer would be barmy not to take an RRB if offered, but I think someone going to Scarborough would be, too.

A 185 and crew on standby at York would be far better, but sadly I don't see that happening.

That would help passengers travelling between York and Scarborough, and those returning from the latter point, but it wouldn't do anything for eastbound passengers who were already on the train at York.

 

[mike57]

I've been using TPE from Scarborough for probably 10 years now and I can only remember one occasion where a RRB was available at Malton. Prior to 20th May termination at Malton was unusual (may be 1 time a year to me and perhaps 1 per month total), since then it's been a daily occurrence, some days 2 or 3 times.

 

[scarby]

Thursday at Scarborough: 0835 arrival 21 minutes late, 0846 departure therefore 15 late and terminated at Huddersfield 78 late; 1035 arrival 10 minutes late; 1135 arrival cancelled and 1146 departure therefore cancelled; 1335 arrival 19 minutes late despite being started short at Huddersfield and the 1346 departure therefore 12 late; 1735 arrival 26 minutes late and 1750 departure therefore 15 late; 1835 arrival 20 minutes late; 1935 arrival 12 minutes late; 2035 arrival 15 minutes late; 2135 arrival 14 minutes late.

 

[Kieran1990]

Thursday at Scarborough: 0835 arrival 21 minutes late, 0846 departure therefore 15 late and terminated at Huddersfield 78 late; 1035 arrival 10 minutes late; 1135 arrival cancelled and 1146 departure therefore cancelled; 1335 arrival 19 minutes late despite being started short at Huddersfield and the 1346 departure therefore 12 late; 1735 arrival 26 minutes late and 1750 departure therefore 15 late; 1835 arrival 20 minutes late; 1935 arrival 12 minutes late; 2035 arrival 15 minutes late; 2135 arrival 14 minutes late.

I honestly don’t know how TPE are getting away with it. I did make a complaint to them last week as it’s getting stupid across the entire network and I highlight in my complaint the ongoing lack of a reliable service on the York-SCA section.
The response- we are working with the industry and basically then blamed Notthern & Network rail

 

[mike57]

I honestly don’t know how TPE are getting away with it. I did make a complaint to them last week as it’s getting stupid across the entire network and I highlight in my complaint the ongoing lack of a reliable service on the York-SCA section.
The response- we are working with the industry and basically then blamed Notthern & Network rail

I think the problem is the senior management still draw the same salary even if the service is rubbish. I am certain if they were hit in their pocket there would be a lot more incentives to sort things out, even if that means taking network rail or another TOC on regarding problem. A well engineered bonus system in lue of part of their salary removes the issue of complacent management, ive seen it work in other industries

 

[30907]

That would help passengers travelling between York and Scarborough, and those returning from the latter point, but it wouldn't do anything for eastbound passengers who were already on the train at York.

On reflection, the standby unit needs to be at Scarborough, in other words having a 70min turnround (which would allow a PNB too) and allowing westbound trains to start right time. But of course there isn't a spare unit.

 

[scarby]

The 1535 arrival into Scarborough / 1546 departure has been cancelled AGAIN.

So it has been cancelled on Monday, Tuesday and Friday this week.

 

[yorkguy]

Just got off the 15.08 into Malton from Manchester which arrived 30 minutes late this afternoon, and therefore turned, so the 15.46 from Scarborough was cancelled. The train had standing room only when it pulled into Malton, with dozens of people having to alight and wait for the 16.08 service, which was also running 25 minutes late. This was a typical summer Friday afternoon loading, with many people travelling for holidays/weekending. What a truly shambolic situation this is. The poor guy in the ticket office at Malton was getting so much stick from very frustrated passengers. Things seemed to go wrong coming into Leeds today as the service was only about 5 minutes late as we approached but around 30 late on departure

 

[Bovverboy]

Just got off the 15.08 into Malton from Manchester which arrived 30 minutes late this afternoon, and therefore turned, so the 15.46 from Scarborough was cancelled. The train had standing room only when it pulled into Malton, with dozens of people having to alight and wait for the 16.08 service, which was also running 25 minutes late.

The '1608' is reported to have left York 29L. According to RTT, though, it's still expected to return from Scarborough on time at 1646!

 

[Bovverboy]

1433 ex-Manchester Victoria now reported to have departed Malton at 1640, 31L. Glad I'm not on it!
Still shown as expected to depart Scarborough at 1646.

EDIT: Now showing as having arrived Scarborough 1701 and departed 1707 (21L). RTT was still showing an expected departure time of 1646 up to 1711, so I imagine the screens at Scarborough were saying simply 'DELAY'.