TransPennine Express North Route, New Timetable

[J-P_L]

Currently the Newcastle turnarounds are around 10 minutes for the Airport services and around 35 minutes for the Liverpools. The booked Newcastle platforms shown on RTT for May to Dec would leave the Liverpools' turnarounds unchanged, but extend the Airports' by an hour, to around 70 minutes.

Is the plan now to interwork the Liverpool and Airport diagrams at Newcastle? That would even up the turnaround times, with around 55 - 60 minutes between an arrival from the Airport and a departure to Liverpool, and around 50 minutes between an arrival from Liverpool and a departure to the Airport. But any 802s introduced before December would have to work both routes.

No, they are due to be separate diagrams. The Liverpool’s are booked into bay platforms at Newcastle. The airports arrive on 2 or 3 and then shunt into Forth Banks sidings and then back to take up their departure for Airport.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Stopping trains to remain as they are - split at Hudds. Currently the planning for December timetable is in the works and the stoppers might be retimed to suit other services passing.

Looks like the trains will remain split for the foreseeable future due to infrastructure.

Regarding the 2 class 185s returning...

The original plan was 2 Nova 3 sets into service replace 2 class 185 units. Then those 185’s do the Liverpool based WCML services.

The final 2 class 185s we need would also return from Northern meaning one set can extend turnarounds on the Liverpool to Scarborough runs from 15 mins to 70 mins. The other would extend Newcastle turnarounds from 10-20 mins to nearly an hour.

That would involve keeping the 170 until later.

Now the plan is that the extended turns at NCL and SCA will happen as planned with the 2 extra 185’s and further changes to unit allocations and introducing new services will go ahead when Mk5’s begin service (removal of the 170 for example).

Interesting to hear about the plans, and about the 170 diagram. A TPE source tells me that they have been told, only this week, that the 170 is going in the May changes, 100% guaranteed, with no chance ofnit staying on.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Did anyone notice that the stoppers to Huddersfield used to be operated by Northern, until the last franchise change in 2016 when they were transferred to TPE.
And as far as we are concerned TPE can keep them

Yes we did, as I (and others) have been discussing exactly that in the last few posts!

Also it didn't change hands at the franchise changeover, it changed hands at the May timetable change last year.

 

[Greybeard33]

No, they are due to be separate diagrams. The Liverpool’s are booked into bay platforms at Newcastle. The airports arrive on 2 or 3 and then shunt into Forth Banks sidings and then back to take up their departure for Airport.

In fact the booked Newcastle platforms for the post-May TPE services vary through the day, and include the through platforms 5, 6 & 7 as well as 2 & 3, plus the bays 9 & 11. One Liverpool service even loops round over the High Level Bridge to use Platform 1, the east-facing bay!

But the platforms actually used can be changed from those booked in the Working Timetable, and often are. It would be possible for TPE to switch to interworked diagrams without changing the WTT. This might reduce the need to use the through platforms.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Interesting to hear about the plans, and about the 170 diagram. A TPE source tells me that they have been told, only this week, that the 170 is going in the May changes, 100% guaranteed, with no chance ofnit staying on.

Correct, the class 170 is being replaced with a 185.

As of today the actual plan is that the other 185 from Northern will be used to extend the layovers at Scarborough to 70 mins, keeping the unit with the operating crew - currently the crew stays and the unit doesn’t.

 

[bengley]

Correct, the class 170 is being replaced with a 185.

As of today the actual plan is that the other 185 from Northern will be used to extend the layovers at Scarborough to 70 mins, keeping the unit with the operating crew - currently the crew stays and the unit doesn’t.

Thank god for that!

 

[yorkguy]

Only single track working available at Malton now. The corroded signal light controlling the bypass line fell off in a spring storm. It was swinging around for a while til Network Rail came and finished the job off, and chucked the unit in the lineside grass. Can’t see them replacing that before the summer specials start coming through

 

[TheVicLine]

Only single track working available at Malton now. The corroded signal light controlling the bypass line fell off in a spring storm. It was swinging around for a while til Network Rail came and finished the job off, and chucked the unit in the lineside grass. Can’t see them replacing that before the summer specials start coming through

 

[paddyb6]

Not sure if this is the correct thread but, I assume this is TP related:
Any ideas on what the following are:
Heaton > Man Picc > Heaton
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97133/2019/05/06/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97132/2019/05/06/advanced

 

[Bovverboy]

I see that in its six-minute dwell at Picc it morphs from an IC125 (HST) into a 100mph DMU.

 

[paddyb6]

I see that in its six-minute dwell at Picc it morphs from an IC125 (HST) into a 100mph DMU.

Yeah - not sure what it is though - possibly a Network Rail NMT

 

[BMIFlyer]

No double 185’s on the North route from May. Specifically the diagram that is a double all day between Man Air and Middlesbrough, which becomes a single unit.

Long layovers at the ends of the route in Newcastle and Scarborough (an hour at each) and up to 40 mins at the other end of the spectrum at Man Airport.

A few services gain stops, such a Stalybridge.

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
I see that in its six-minute dwell at Picc it morphs from an IC125 (HST) into a 100mph DMU.

Yeah - not sure what it is though - possibly a Network Rail NMT

I can't see it being an NMT - surely it wouldn't be scheduled to do the same run five days in a row. It's been cancelled Mon/Tues anyway.

 

[BeHereNow]

No double 185’s on the North route from May. Specifically the diagram that is a double all day between Man Air and Middlesbrough, which becomes a single unit.

Long layovers at the ends of the route in Newcastle and Scarborough (an hour at each) and up to 40 mins at the other end of the spectrum at Man Airport.

A few services gain stops, such a Stalybridge.

Excellent, what Transpennine Express needs is shorter trains.

 

[Starmill]

Excellent, what TransPennine Express needs is shorter trains.

Well there have been progressively fewer 6 cars working on the North route for a while now, haven't there? Taking away the few that are left probably won't have much impact?

 

[AndrewE]

Well there have been progressively fewer 6 cars working on the North route for a while now, haven't there? Taking away the few that are left probably won't have much impact?

...apart from proving to be the last straw for the commuters who have been lucky enough to have 2 sets on their usual train until now. And showing even more of the occasionally-travelling general public that rail is not the answer to our future travel needs. (Not true, of course, but the way it is being done now is going to damage any case for investment.)

 

[darloscott]

I have to say I was pleasantly surprised recently when a few weeks ago I caught the 1547 Airport-Middlesbrough from Victoria on a weekday... it wasn't spectacularly busy with standing down the aisles only really between Huddersfield and Leeds but other than that there wasn't much of a problem. I had an empty seat next to me most of the way home to Thornaby.

 

[Jamesrob637]

No double 185’s on the North route from May. Specifically the diagram that is a double all day between Man Air and Middlesbrough, which becomes a single unit.

OK so what does the erstwhile second unit do? Form a completely new service? I guess sometimes you rob Peter to pay Paul

 

[BMIFlyer]

OK so what does the erstwhile second unit do? Form a completely new service? I guess sometimes you rob Peter to pay Paul

Increases turnaround times in Newcastle for other services.

 

[Jonny]

Increases turnaround times in Newcastle for other services.

Which is the only way to sort out delays on the Newcastle-bound legs, which occur at pretty much any point on the journey.

 

[BeHereNow]

You only need to extend turnrounds if you plan them to be ludicrously tight in the first place. That way, when anything goes wrong, it is always someone else's fault.

The FirstGroup way!

 

[AndrewE]

You only need to extend turnrounds if you plan them to be ludicrously tight in the first place. That way, when anything goes wrong, it is always someone else's fault.

The FirstGroup way!

Was it really their fault though? Timetable planning has an almost impossible number of constraints and it may be that making it work through the core (and on the ECML) means that at the extremities you get inconvenient layover time choices.
What would happen if you swapped the xx.39 Leeds to Newcastle departure with the xx.21 for Scarborough trains, for example? (xx.02 and xx.44 from York.) It would make the Newcastle arrivals nearer half-hourly but might well cause other problems on the ECML - or on the Scarborough line.
The southbound departures from Newcastle do seem to be ridiculously close, at around xx.03 and .15

 

[Starmill]

The southbound departures from Newcastle do seem to be ridiculously close, at around xx.03 and .15

The trains from the North route must serve Manchester Airport on a half-hourly schedule. I don't see how they could be spaced otherwise between Manchester and Newcastle to achieve this half hourly spacing to Manchester Airport.

 

[YorkshireBear]

You only need to extend turnrounds if you plan them to be ludicrously tight in the first place. That way, when anything goes wrong, it is always someone else's fault.

The FirstGroup way!

The headline timetable was developed by the DfT not First Group. The details is what caused the massive issue, but of course any TOC would have hit the timetabling issues as it was an industry wide c**k up.

 

[BeHereNow]

The headline timetable was developed by the DfT not First Group.

Are you able to evidence the claim that DfT designed 10 minute turnrounds as part of Transpennine's timetable?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Are you able to evidence the claim that DfT designed 10 minute turnrounds as part of Transpennine's timetable?

That would be why I said headline timetable not the detail.

The DfT did however know that 6tph would have to be delivered by the current trains before any could be brought in. Which would mean either less 6 cars or shorter turn arounds. First chose short turn arounds. But if the timetable worked short turnarounds would not have led to the chaos they did. So as I said that was an industry problem.

Longer turnarounds have not stopped delays they just cut the head off the snake when they happen.

 

[BeHereNow]

The franchise agreement states that the new trains will be in from December 2017, in line with the timetable change. In the event the timetable change was delayed and the new trains still weren't in.

Not sure where you have the idea that they had to choose shorter trains or shorter turnrounds. Their May 2018 plan matches the bid plan.

As you say, their timetable didn't work, particularly for the stopping trains between Manchester and Leeds. And the short turnrounds. And the under-crewing. And the shorter trains.

 

[BMIFlyer]

There will be some big changes in December, due to inter-working of the Newcastle and Middlesbrough trains ending (for turn arounds at Man Air).

There will be a recast or the timetable which should even out both the Newcastle departures.

Also, Northern will end their peak hour trains from Huddersfield to Manchester in December and TPE will run extra ones in place of those.

Plus many other changes to come to further improve train running.

 

[Greybeard33]

There will be some big changes in December, due to inter-working of the Newcastle and Middlesbrough trains ending (for turn arounds at Man Air).

There will be a recast or the timetable which should even out both the Newcastle departures.

Also, Northern will end their peak hour trains from Huddersfield to Manchester in December and TPE will run extra ones in place of those.

Plus many other changes to come to further improve train running.

So will the December recast mean the end of the clockface timetable between Victoria and Leeds?

 

[BMIFlyer]

So will the December recast mean the end of the clockface timetable between Victoria and Leeds?

No. It will however even out the Newcastle’s to every 30 mins from Man Vic instead of one train leaving, then the next one 15 mins later then a 45 mins wait.