Not sure I’d want to be a passenger on an aircraft over 100 times its maximum takeoff weight!
oops
as typos go that’s a belter! Corrected.
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Transpennine Industrial Relations
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oops
as typos go that’s a belter! Corrected.
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Solent&Wessex
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Indeed.
And there are strong rumours that the timetable is going to be cut again in a few weeks at the behest of the DfT.
Results of the Conductor ballot are out
gimmea50anyday
Established Member
TPE conductors are now under instruction from the union not to work any overtime or rest day work as of Sunday 13th February onwards. In addition conductors are not to book on for duty between 00:01 and 23:59 on Sunday 13th, Sunday 20th Sunday 27th February and Sunday 6th March.
This is all intents and purposes a strike. However bearing in mind Sunday is not part of the working week and is classed as overtime which staff don't have to work "unless cover is unavailable" in which case it is forced overtime.
Now I appreciate people on here will bemoan a strike and slate TPE staff for it and claim there are people out there who will do a conductor job for less money, you have to understand what TPE conductors are asking for. All they want is reasonable renumeration to work their days off. Currently a Sunday shift pays around £20 an hour. Seems like a lot. But that's before tax. So a 5 hour Sunday shift paying 100 less £22 tax, then take off NI, fuel costs getting to and from work, the cost of a cuppa and a sandwich on their break. Pension and brass deductions, other company incentives such as cycle to work and childcare vouchers, benevolent fund payment and so on. That £100 is rapidly diminishing to under £50. Then add on the time lost getting ready for work and the travel to and from home. 5 hours has gone up to 8. Where's the incentive to work the day off? In contrast drivers were being paid on a Sunday what a conductor earned in a week. They aren't bemoaning the drivers in any way they just want a fair slice of the cake, and they used to have it. 2 years ago when conductors were receiving a flat rate enhanced pay regardless of duty length there was no issue getting shifts covered as people wanted to work and it made life for the company and its resources team easy. Now they are struggling to cover work as it is then the drivers rest day work agreement expired and the company hasn't renewed it. Then you have covid sickness and leave on top. No one wants to work their day off because it isn't financially viable for them to work on their day off. That is the reality.
Staff don't want to strike, they want to be valued. They have a value. Management need to get around the table and thrash out a deal to get staff motivated to work. Is that too much to ask?
This is all intents and purposes a strike. However bearing in mind Sunday is not part of the working week and is classed as overtime which staff don't have to work "unless cover is unavailable" in which case it is forced overtime.
Now I appreciate people on here will bemoan a strike and slate TPE staff for it and claim there are people out there who will do a conductor job for less money, you have to understand what TPE conductors are asking for. All they want is reasonable renumeration to work their days off. Currently a Sunday shift pays around £20 an hour. Seems like a lot. But that's before tax. So a 5 hour Sunday shift paying 100 less £22 tax, then take off NI, fuel costs getting to and from work, the cost of a cuppa and a sandwich on their break. Pension and brass deductions, other company incentives such as cycle to work and childcare vouchers, benevolent fund payment and so on. That £100 is rapidly diminishing to under £50. Then add on the time lost getting ready for work and the travel to and from home. 5 hours has gone up to 8. Where's the incentive to work the day off? In contrast drivers were being paid on a Sunday what a conductor earned in a week. They aren't bemoaning the drivers in any way they just want a fair slice of the cake, and they used to have it. 2 years ago when conductors were receiving a flat rate enhanced pay regardless of duty length there was no issue getting shifts covered as people wanted to work and it made life for the company and its resources team easy. Now they are struggling to cover work as it is then the drivers rest day work agreement expired and the company hasn't renewed it. Then you have covid sickness and leave on top. No one wants to work their day off because it isn't financially viable for them to work on their day off. That is the reality.
Staff don't want to strike, they want to be valued. They have a value. Management need to get around the table and thrash out a deal to get staff motivated to work. Is that too much to ask?
Killingworth
Established Member
Sadly, although it's not too much to ask, and most managers probably agree, their hands will be financially tied, especially with the fear of precedents and repercussions! Covid + imminent GBR casts an ominous cloud over all the positivity being seen 2 or 3 years ago.
Reducing potential ticket revenue still further hardly helps. I was considering taking the train to Manchester Airport for our first trip abroad since 2019. I'll carry on with plans to go by car and avoid the worry of trains not running. No great loss for TPE but other more regular users will also turn their backs, just when they were thinking of returning to rail.
We've about 3 weeks to consider a workable arrangement to at least keep trains running reliably, at weekends in particular, until a full resolution can be achieved. The omens don't seem to be looking good.
I don't blame you.
Deafdoggie
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People simply not working it would alter it. The fact people are working it implies they are happy with it.
I'm not sure what argument you make when saying the money is before tax and NI, only the poorest paid don't pay that, surely you're not saying you want railway staff to be so badly paid they don't pay tax? Everyone (nearly) pays tax, they know how it works. Even unemployment benefit is taxable!
The bottom line is, the DFT want to save money, a strike saves them money. It's their ideal outcome, don't expect them to rush and resolve this. If it puts people off rail travel, better still. That's more cuts that can be made. The union are playing into the government's hands here. The trouble is, they don't realise it.
This for me is the worrying bit of what you've put on here. The idea that 'management' are somehow going to pull a rabbit from the hat in regards to pay when the DfT are on a cost cutting mission, hate when fellow staff have a go at the wrong people and say that they aren't being valued due to pay. Especially when a deal to bring Sunday's in the working week was knocked back a few years ago and one I thought was more than reasonable.
As has been posted above, what the union is doing is playing into the governments hands here. I know people I've been working with who've been wanting nationalisation for years and always told them to be careful what you wish for as we more than benefitted from franchising. This is what happens when you're affectively nationalised and the fact is the DfT won't budge.
Killingworth
Established Member
I don't know all the details behind all the issues afflicting the railway today (although I've a few clues) but between Sheffield and Manchester a normal Saturday morning service should comprise 3 hourly trains, 6 coaches from TPE, 4 from EMR and 3 from Northern, 13 coaches.
For 3 hours this morning only Northern ran, so only 9 coaches instead of 39 in 3 hours. EMR offered a bus substitute from Chesterfield and Sheffield to Stockport (there was no engineering work).
After TPEs 6 coach 8.08 their next wasn't until a 3 car at 12.14.
Norhern couldn't take all aboard at Sheffield and at Dore some who couldn't get on their 10.21 couldn't get on the 11.21 either. It was probably much the same at most other stations into Manchester. At least the guard made the sensible suggestion to get the 11.58 into Sheffield and come back out rather than chancing waiting for the 12.21. It did squeeze everyone in but can't have been a pleasant experience.
And to think we are supposed to be getting a 4th hourly train by 2023/4.
Passenger/customers don't care exactly why trains don't turn up, are late, or short formed. As far as they're concerned they want to get to their destination reliably when they want to travel.
With so many other things messing up rail journeys imposing industrial action on top of all the rest is most unhelpul. It was telling that many of those at Dore were cursing the railway, but were off to get their cars or lifts rather than chance waiting for another train that might be full, or not turn up. Why would they chance it next time they wanted to make a journey?
I write as one who was an elected union representative for over 20 years (25 years ag), not railway. I'd warn to be careful what you get involved in. We banned overtime and worked strictly to rule for over 3 months, and got most of what we wanted. Employers discovered ways to gradually change many rules (we still had to use sealing wax back then) and working practices to make all more efficient. The pay roll gradually subsided over the years that followed. Those who stayed got more, but a lot left together with masses of experience. The organisation today is totally different.
For 3 hours this morning only Northern ran, so only 9 coaches instead of 39 in 3 hours. EMR offered a bus substitute from Chesterfield and Sheffield to Stockport (there was no engineering work).
After TPEs 6 coach 8.08 their next wasn't until a 3 car at 12.14.
Norhern couldn't take all aboard at Sheffield and at Dore some who couldn't get on their 10.21 couldn't get on the 11.21 either. It was probably much the same at most other stations into Manchester. At least the guard made the sensible suggestion to get the 11.58 into Sheffield and come back out rather than chancing waiting for the 12.21. It did squeeze everyone in but can't have been a pleasant experience.
And to think we are supposed to be getting a 4th hourly train by 2023/4.
Passenger/customers don't care exactly why trains don't turn up, are late, or short formed. As far as they're concerned they want to get to their destination reliably when they want to travel.
With so many other things messing up rail journeys imposing industrial action on top of all the rest is most unhelpul. It was telling that many of those at Dore were cursing the railway, but were off to get their cars or lifts rather than chance waiting for another train that might be full, or not turn up. Why would they chance it next time they wanted to make a journey?
I write as one who was an elected union representative for over 20 years (25 years ag), not railway. I'd warn to be careful what you get involved in. We banned overtime and worked strictly to rule for over 3 months, and got most of what we wanted. Employers discovered ways to gradually change many rules (we still had to use sealing wax back then) and working practices to make all more efficient. The pay roll gradually subsided over the years that followed. Those who stayed got more, but a lot left together with masses of experience. The organisation today is totally different.
Broken down freight train caused this. Scunthorpe to Cleethorpes was cut off due to it.
Killingworth
Established Member
That explains missing 6025, the 6 coach 10.11 from Sheffield, but not why the 9.11 and 11.11 were missing from the timetable, and the 12.11 only had 3 cars.
Nor does it explain why EMR chose to blame non-existent engineering work for suspending their services. Posters have been on Hope Valley stations since late December.
They’re not missing from the timetable, they’re removed from the timetable. There is no 9.11 or 11.11 until further notice due to Covid related staff shortages. The route is 2-hourly off peak (which includes weekends)
By the same logic people taking part in the strike implies that they are happy with that as well
Indeed, the narrative at first was the railway was full of nasty covid and that put people off.
Now it’s switched to trains are just unreliable and staffed by overpaid union shirkers stopping nurses getting to work and costing your beloved government money that could be spent on medicine or a nicer school for the wee ones. So if you could all just hop on a plane or your car that would be great.
A perfect target for a right wing govt with huge treasury savings to make, especially one in a majority, If unions are expecting the public (outside of this forum and a twitter echo chamber) to step up and support, they’re in for a shock.
I’ve been wondering about this, mainly in terms of another industry where 4 day working weeks are becoming normal.
I have no evidence, and if people have evidence please post it.
Good things for safety critical job:
- Plenty of sleep
- So short commute
- Nice mattress
- Probably a spare room with blackout and noise insulation
- Organised life
- Decent glasses if needed
- Exercise
- Management of minor health niggles.
- Work life balance
- Decent food
- Stable housing (not having to keep moving between rented places)
- Reliable childcare
- Stress
- Car trouble
- Unreliable commute
- Unreliable heating
- Cut to bone finances
- Second jobs
- Illness and temptation to work when ill.
- Hungover days
There’s a problem in the USA where pilot pay has probably got a bit lower than it needs to be to stay healthy.
My circle of friends includes people whose pay is part time on minimum wage (ish) to people paid £400k+ a year. £70k is beyond the wildest dreams of many, but isn’t mega mega pay in the whole scheme of things.
(I’d expect to work Sundays and bank holidays for £70k. If you boss says, I’d jump)
(I think there is a society problem where the difference between lowest and highest paid is so wide. I think we are under educated as a country meaning the confident and skilled can demand and get mega money. And the cost of basic decent housing too high. But for another forum)
Lots of tocs pay £50k this £70k people go on about is for the top intercity tocs
Reminds me of similar debates over many years particularly when the various “ban the bomb” movements where popular, where those promoting the Nuclear industry claimed its workforce was amongst the country’s healthiest, but counter arguments suggested that was only because it employed a significantly high proportion of well paid & educated people on good T&Cs
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Atishyou
Member
Driver's aren't paid what a conductor earns in a week for a Sunday.
Their union agreed a rest day work agreement, just like the union did for the conductors.
You're also comparing a 5 hour day for a conductor with a possibly double that day for a driver. I'll not even get into the job differences, which you clearly know about.
mike57
Established Member
I work in another safety critical industry, and certainly 'distractions' are known to be contributers to the erosion of safety standards, certainly the 'Bad things' you mention, and a few others, e.g. relationship troubles, and any sort of addiction, alcohol, drugs, gambling, which are actually mentioned almost as the first things on the list in my industry. Being well paid moves the balance in the right direction, but there will still be those who will just **** the extra money against the wall on a weekend, but you try and weed those people out. Ultimatley there is a saying "pay peanuts, get monkeys" and if my life and well being depends upon someone making the right decisions I would expect that they are well paid enough to be able to function without the obvious distractions, and would hope that the recruitment process weeds out any obvious flawed characters, there is also a security clearance required in our industry and that will hopefully weed out less suitable people.
Come off it, Drivers were frequently getting a flat rate of several hundred pounds to come in on their rest day and do 1 shunt to Ardwick and taxi back (and other similar 1-2 hour duties). Don't make it out like they were working their backsides off, because they weren't.
Conductors (and other grades) have been continuously crapped on while Drivers get whatever they like throughout the whole pandemic. If it's good enough for Drivers (and the DfT were clearly willing to authorise said payments), it's good enough for the rest of them. This is essentially the same dispute as Scotrail had.
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Those are some good points however the difference between 50-70k means one is more professional than the other?
And I think drivers have to live within an hour of their depot and I don't doubt that some may live a bit further.
Now are train cleaners not professional at their jobs because they don't get paid the top money? Or the person who trains to become anything that doesn't pay top whack are not professional?
I could go on but you see my point
There is a requirement on recruitment to live within a set distance , ive seen some say an hour and some 45 mins . Either way it is checked at recruitment it would be difficult to enforce this beyond that .
As for being professional at their jobs , I have all the respect in the world for clearners and the important job they do . But the stakes are just not the same , if a cleaner makes a mistake its extremely unlikely to result in death or serious injury to others .On the other hand a driver , signaller , shunter , guard or some other safety critical member of staff could make mistakes that result in that .
I don’t see your point to be honest, unless you’re saying you think everyone on the railway should be paid the same as cleaners?!
Different jobs attract different rates of pay, and the same job often attracts different rates at different employers. I expect that’s as true for cleaners as it is for drivers, or any other railway grade.
This strikes me as just the standard moaning about drivers’ wages…
175001
Established Member
Rest days are never guaranteed. I despair at train crew colleagues who claim that they can't live without rest day work, that they feed their families by working them etc...
The other side of the argument is equally tedious - IE someone sagely saying to someone who really doesn't wish to be losing money to someone else's principled stand which they aren't remotely fussed about that "you should be able to live on your basic wage, you know".
Personal circumstances are just that.
Atishyou
Member
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I don't think tpe conductors have a RDW sanction so it's incorrect to state that the union agreed to it . If anything this dispute shows the union reps don't agree nor do the majority of members balloted .
Atishyou
Member
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Not at all, I'm happy for whoever earns what and fair play to them, however you have taken my post in isolation whereas my first question was rather pertinent in someone claiming that you can only be professional if you earn lots of money .
I'm a professional social worker yet I don’t earn loads so am I now devalued in someone’s eyes because I don’t earn a lot?
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