Transpennine not offering full refund during coronavirus lockdown

[Grizzly]

Hello all,
I hope this is the right area of the forum to post my question. I had an Advance ticket for travel on 20 March. At that time non-essential travel was only advised against, and fees for changing Advance tickets were waived. I took advantage of this and changed my ticket to 8 May, which was about as far ahead as you could book at the time, realising that travel might still not be possible then, but thinking it was worth paying the small excess I had to pay to change the ticket date, because I had already decided not to travel on 20 March.

On 23 March policy changed to allow refunds of any ticket, including Advance. As it got nearer to 8 May, the situation had not changed and I applied for a refund from Transpennine (who I bought the ticket from). Some time later they refunded the excess but not the original ticket price. I have questioned this and they stick to the line that because my original ticket was for 20 March, before the 23 March change of policy, they won't refund it. I contend that, after I paid the excess, I no longer had a valid ticket for 20 March and only one for 8 May (original ticket + excess) and therefore they should refund the total cost.

Do you think I have a case?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hello all,
I hope this is the right area of the forum to post my question. I had an Advance ticket for travel on 20 March. At that time non-essential travel was only advised against, and fees for changing Advance tickets were waived. I took advantage of this and changed my ticket to 8 May, which was about as far ahead as you could book at the time, realising that travel might still not be possible then, but thinking it was worth paying the small excess I had to pay to change the ticket date, because I had already decided not to travel on 20 March.

On 23 March policy changed to allow refunds of any ticket, including Advance. As it got nearer to 8 May, the situation had not changed and I applied for a refund from Transpennine (who I bought the ticket from). Some time later they refunded the excess but not the original ticket price. I have questioned this and they stick to the line that because my original ticket was for 20 March, before the 23 March change of policy, they won't refund it. I contend that, after I paid the excess, I no longer had a valid ticket for 20 March and only one for 8 May (original ticket + excess) and therefore they should refund the total cost.

Do you think I have a case?

National Rail Enquiries says the entitlement to get a refund on Advances applies to tickets "bought before" 23 March. It doesn't qualify that by referring to the date when the Advance must be for, so I suspect it's simply the case that NRE is saying one thing and the guidance to retailers is saying another. Of course that doesn't excuse the situation.

Was your train for 8 May cancelled or retimed? If so, it's a simple case of being able to claim a full refund on that basis alone. If not, you'll have to rely on the above argument.

Stuff like this is really petty when the industry has been - and indeed still is - telling people to go away. And yet at the same time is refusing to give appropriate redress.

 

[Grizzly]

National Rail Enquiries says the entitlement to get a refund on Advances applies to tickets "bought before" 23 March. It doesn't qualify that by referring to the date when the Advance must be for, so I suspect it's simply the case that NRE is saying one thing and the guidance to retailers is saying another. Of course that doesn't excuse the situation.

Was your train for 8 May cancelled or retimed? If so, it's a simple case of being able to claim a full refund on that basis alone. If not, you'll have to rely on the above argument.

Stuff like this is really petty when the industry has been - and indeed still is - telling people to go away. And yet at the same time is refusing to give appropriate redress.

Thanks, I didn't think of seeing whether the train was actually running as I had no intention of travelling by the time we got to May. It wouldn't be running on tomorrow's timetable, but I don't know if it's possible to see timetables further back than the 7 days you can on Real Time Trains.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Thanks, I didn't think of seeing whether the train was actually running as I had no intention of travelling by the time we got to May. It wouldn't be running on tomorrow's timetable, but I don't know if it's possible to see timetables further back than the 7 days you can on Real Time Trains.

Try finding the train in the current timetable on Real Time Trains, then changing the date in the address bar of your web browser to the date in question. It might not work due to the length of time passed, and the commencement of the summer timetable in May.

As an aside. Today I received from TPE a cheque through the post for a journey I initially claimed for exactly 13 weeks ago. It took four on-line/email contacts (no response), then an on-line complaint to get to that situation.

Persist is all I can offer in support!

 

[robbeech]

It's also possible (if the RTT example doesn't work) that if you tell us the time the train on the 8th May was due to leave and depart which stations someone can find out if that train ran to the timetable in place when you booked it. You'd also need to specify what date you changed the ticket from 20/03 to 08/05 (and it might help to know what date you originally booked the ticket for 20/03.

 

[Grizzly]

Thanks for the replies so far. It didn't work with RTT changing the date. If someone has access to look it up I'd be grateful.

I booked on 17/02 to travel on 20/03. I amended the ticket to 08/05 on 20/03 several hours before the time of travel. On the amended ticket I was due to travel on 08/05 at 10:25 from Shrewsbury to Swansea (changing at Newport).

 

[alistairlees]

Hello all,
I hope this is the right area of the forum to post my question. I had an Advance ticket for travel on 20 March. At that time non-essential travel was only advised against, and fees for changing Advance tickets were waived. I took advantage of this and changed my ticket to 8 May, which was about as far ahead as you could book at the time, realising that travel might still not be possible then, but thinking it was worth paying the small excess I had to pay to change the ticket date, because I had already decided not to travel on 20 March.

On 23 March policy changed to allow refunds of any ticket, including Advance. As it got nearer to 8 May, the situation had not changed and I applied for a refund from Transpennine (who I bought the ticket from). Some time later they refunded the excess but not the original ticket price. I have questioned this and they stick to the line that because my original ticket was for 20 March, before the 23 March change of policy, they won't refund it. I contend that, after I paid the excess, I no longer had a valid ticket for 20 March and only one for 8 May (original ticket + excess) and therefore they should refund the total cost.

Do you think I have a case?

You are correct. You no longer had a ticket for 20th March, instead possessing one for 5th May. This ticket is refundable in full, without any fees being applied, provided that you applied for your refund before the train departed. TransPennine Express are incorrect.

This approach was agreed by all retailers. It is why we (and other retailers) were asking customers to forward date their Advance ticket changes before 23rd March to a date as far as possible ahead - in the expectation that the tickets would by then be refundable.

 

[Grizzly]

You are correct. You no longer had a ticket for 20th March, instead possessing one for 5th May. This ticket is refundable in full, without any fees being applied, provided that you applied for your refund before the train departed. TransPennine Express are incorrect.

This approach was agreed by all retailers. It is why we (and other retailers) were asking customers to forward date their Advance ticket changes before 23rd March to a date as far as possible ahead - in the expectation that the tickets would by then be refundable.

Thank you. I couldn't see a flaw in my logic, as I could no longer have used that ticket to travel on 20 March. I am wondering whether to try:
(a) a further approach to TPE Customer Service on these grounds
(b) if the train didn't run, mention that as well, or
(c) go straight to the complaints department

 

[alistairlees]

Thank you. I couldn't see a flaw in my logic, as I could no longer have used that ticket to travel on 20 March. I am wondering whether to try:
(a) a further approach to TPE Customer Service on these grounds
(b) if the train didn't run, mention that as well, or
(c) go straight to the complaints department

I would just do (a). If you get no satisfaction then I would do (c), followed by transport focus if you get no satisfaction.

I would not do (b) unless it is sufficiently true for you to succeed on those grounds.

 

[Grizzly]

I would just do (a). If you get no satisfaction then I would do (c), followed by transport focus if you get no satisfaction.

I would not do (b) unless it is sufficiently true for you to succeed on those grounds.

Yes, I think at this stage mentioning whether or not the train ran is a complication.
I've already had a series of 3 responses from TPE (i) not reading my email and just saying how to apply for a refund (ii) saying they could not refund the ticket for travel on 20 March (even though I'd amended the date and (iii) reiterating this when I questioned it.

 

[alistairlees]

This page on national rail is not well written or presented, but I think is clear enough for your case:

Travel Information | National Rail

Everything you need to know about National Rail services, including alerts, timetables, engineering works, train companies, safe train travel, sustainability and more

www.nationalrail.co.uk

See the “advance” bullet point.

 

[Grizzly]

This page on national rail is not well written or presented, but I think is clear enough for your case:

Travel Information | National Rail

Everything you need to know about National Rail services, including alerts, timetables, engineering works, train companies, safe train travel, sustainability and more

www.nationalrail.co.uk

See the “advance” bullet point.

Thanks, I may well quote that when I contact TPE.

 

[robbeech]

I agree you may not wish to complicate things at this stage but for reference 1V93 (1025 from Shrewsbury) for 08/05 was removed from the timetable on 23/04.

I assume it would have put you on the 1227 service to Swansea from London. This did run, though incidentally was delayed after Newport by a signalling fault. This service had been cancelled and reinstated a few days before hand but did run on the day. Academic given the first was cancelled.

TPE are wrong regardless and this seems to be common place with claims that aren’t really straightforward. They usually pay out but you have to push and push, I suspect they get away with lots.

 

[Grizzly]

I agree you may not wish to complicate things at this stage but for reference 1V93 (1025 from Shrewsbury) for 08/05 was removed from the timetable on 23/04.

I assume it would have put you on the 1227 service to Swansea from London. This did run, though incidentally was delayed after Newport by a signalling fault. This service had been cancelled and reinstated a few days before hand but did run on the day. Academic given the first was cancelled.

TPE are wrong regardless and this seems to be common place with claims that aren’t really straightforward. They usually pay out but you have to push and push, I suspect they get away with lots.

Thanks for taking the time to look it up - I'll try again.

 

[Grizzly]

Well I had another two goes with TPE customer service, with no change. Their latest response mentions that I can take my case to the Rail Ombudsman and states that their latest email is a Deadlock Letter. It's not a large amount of money, but I still feel I have followed the guidelines and am due a refund. In none of TPE's responses do they address the fact that I had changed the date of my original ticket and it was no longer valid for travel on 20 March, if my understanding and those of the forum members who have responded is correct.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Well I had another two goes with TPE customer service, with no change. Their latest response mentions that I can take my case to the Rail Ombudsman and states that their latest email is a Deadlock Letter. It's not a large amount of money, but I still feel I have followed the guidelines and am due a refund. In none of TPE's responses do they address the fact that I had changed the date of my original ticket and it was no longer valid for travel on 20 March, if my understanding and those of the forum members who have responded is correct.

I wouldn't be messing around with the Rail Ombudsman if I were you - they are just as incompetent as Transport Focus really, with the only different being that their (usually wrong) decisions are binding on the TOC. Whoopee doo.

You might have quicker and easier recourse by pursuing a chargeback (or S75 claim, as appropriate). Alternatively you could pursue it in Court.

 

[alistairlees]

I wouldn't be messing around with the Rail Ombudsman if I were you - they are just as incompetent as Transport Focus really, with the only different being that their (usually wrong) decisions are binding on the TOC. Whoopee doo.

You might have quicker and easier recourse by pursuing a chargeback (or S75 claim, as appropriate). Alternatively you could pursue it in Court.

How do you know that their decisions are ‘usually’ wrong? Do you have insight into this, or any statistics?

 

[Grizzly]

I wouldn't be messing around with the Rail Ombudsman if I were you - they are just as incompetent as Transport Focus really, with the only different being that their (usually wrong) decisions are binding on the TOC. Whoopee doo.

You might have quicker and easier recourse by pursuing a chargeback (or S75 claim, as appropriate). Alternatively you could pursue it in Court.

Oh well, I've done it now. Will have to see what they say.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

How do you know that their decisions are ‘usually’ wrong? Do you have insight into this, or any statistics?

We have heard of enough cases on the forum where, just like TF always did, the Rail Ombudsman simply parrots the TOC's version of events as if they were in cahoots. They utterly lack the independence, assertiveness and subject knowledge required for an ombudsman to be effective. It is hardly surprising given that Ombudsman assessor adverts went out a few years ago, offering tiny amounts for each case.

 

[Grizzly]

Good news: the Rail Ombudsman have ruled in my favour and TPE have offered a small amount extra by way of apology. Thanks again for the advice and support.

 

[WesternLancer]

Good news: the Rail Ombudsman have ruled in my favour and TPE have offered a small amount extra by way of apology. Thanks again for the advice and support.

Great - and interesting (given the skeptical comments about the Ombudsman up thread) - well done for pursuing it and thanks for the update!