Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification, CP6

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by GRALISTAIR, 9 Aug 2013.

  1. Invincibles

    Invincibles Member

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    It certainly does, but then that is what makes it relevant as a suggestion for this thread about that route.

    I imagine the trains could be sent to the East side of Victoria to terminate if the will was there.

    It was very much a fantasy suggestion, and maybe in keeping with that there would be a way to grade separate Guide Bridge and keep the connection. Perhaps my tunnel could start early instead of continuing to the limit of the 4 track line towards Hyde.
     
  2. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR Established Member

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    Well they are going to get them with HS2! Why not run the Woodhead route past Sheffield Victoria to Meadowhall and into HS2 and run 'compatibles' from Manchester Airport to Newcastle (for instance)?
     
  3. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    I would support any proposal to overturn the planned removal of the Newcastle service from Manchester Airport, but I only selfishly say this as the airport will lose its direct service to Durham and all its historical connections such as the cathedral.

    Middlesbrough does not seem to be an acceptable tourist substitute, notwithstanding its railway connectional link to Whitby...:roll:
     
  4. DJH1971

    DJH1971 Established Member

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    I'm surprised that there hasn't been more call on the CLC line from Liverpool to Manchester yo be wired, especially with the wires now going east of Manchester.

    The newly electrified Chat Moss line will be beyond saturation point!
     
  5. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    Every so often over last year or so, this matter appears in various threads, much discussion then ensues, then it dies down again.
     
  6. YorkshireBear

    YorkshireBear Established Member

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    The consensus is usually it will come in CP6/early 7.
     
  7. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    Its future is probably tied up with the Hope Valley route.
    It doesn't help that the Cleethorpes/Norwich services have no chance of electrification in the short term.

    Currently there are only 6tph max on the Chat Moss route (Lime St-Huyton), 7 after the Liverpool-Newcastle starts.
    Only 3/4tph east of Parkside. Not that busy really.
     
    Last edited: 12 Aug 2013
  8. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    On a personal level, my main issue with this change is yet more people with lots of luggage being told to change to Airport services at Huddersfield. The one thing Huddersfield doesn't need is way more crowds in the station that won't go into town and spend money! :roll:

    Then again, 2tph to Liverpool is a plus, so silver linings...:|
     
  9. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    For all you Woodhead tunnel fanatics.... Movement!
    Though perhaps not in a good direction.

    As you may remember reopening the tunnels was considered for Northern Hub but dropped in favour of Hope Valley and electrification. Developement work on Northern Hub in 2008 concluded that improving the Hope Valley line was cheaper, benfitted the freight traffic on the quarries along the route and that there was no short/medium term need to reopen the Woodhead tunnels complicated by the fact that the National Grid cables then ran through the tunnels and it was decided that the 1950's tunnels didnt meet modern standards and if Woodhead was to be reused new tunnels would have to be bored.

    In 2009 further Northern Hub work concluded that the Woodhead tunnels could not produce a potential Manchester-Sheffield journey time of under 40 minutes that improving the Hope Valley could though it could provide increased capacity for freight and slower passenger trains.

    Consequently the Woodhead tunnels were not included in the Governments 2012 HLOS for control period 5.

    However National Grid recently renewed the electricity cables through the 1950's tunnel and no longer requires the 19th century tunnels, In response to this the Secretary of State for Transport wrote to local authorities along the route in July and asked them their views on what should be done with the tunnels for future long term Transpennine transport and asked for responses by September. The Manchester policymakers believe that the Government/ORR is unhappy with the NR cost estimates for the Hope Valley lines improvement (The ORR draft determination suggests a reduction of £115m in the amount NR asked for to deliver Northern Hub) and is considering delaying work on the Hope Valley line for 5-10 years and instead reopening Woodhead as a short term fudge.

    Not sure what replys other authorities will give but TfGM is responding that the Hope Valley improvements are essential for faster services and while reopening the Woodhead tunnels is something they would support and an option they want to keep open they wouldnt support it if the sole purpose was to justify downgrading the Northern Hub scope.


    TfGM letter to Dft

     
    Last edited: 5 Sep 2013
  10. Chris125

    Chris125 Established Member

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    It strikes me as rather optimistic to think that a lack of funding to upgrade the Hope Valley could improve the case for a much more expensive reopening of Woodhead, either now or in the future.

    Chris
     
  11. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    Surely any new stock would be a big help? I should think that electrification could offer an improvement to the stopping services as well. Let's not forget Barlaston, Wedgwood and Norton Bridge which went that way as well.
     
  12. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    When was the last officially released report made on the structural and other related matters that concern the two original tunnel bores of Woodhead ?
     
  13. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Northern Hub/Manchester Hub studies of 2008 and 2009, not sure if they were in public sections though.
     
  14. furryfeet

    furryfeet Member

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    Nice to hear some forward thinking about Standedge !
    Is there any details in what form the disused bores would be used be they
    a) one bore or both
    b) electric or non-electric ( if non-electric then surely easier to get W10 gauge for freight and other large gauge rolling stock )
    c) unidirectional, or bi-directional. The latter in particular would enable the 1894 tunnel to be shut at night for periodic maintenance.

    If it goes ahead, would this work go in tandem with the Nothern Hub upgrade and associated electrification and resignalling work ?
     
  15. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    I am unsure if there was once a thread on the unused Standedge tunnels and their condition in the last two years on this forum. I may be wrong in this and have seen it elsewhere.
     
  16. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    One of the disused single bores at Standedge is used as emergency access for the canal tunnel (and in theory the extant rail tunnel too). WY Fire Service periodically drive an appliance down it as a training exercise. Though I don't see any reason why a tramway-style surface couldn't be laid over running lines to allow this to continue, as if there ever was an emergency in one of the tunnels all trains would be stopped anyway, I'd have thought.
     
  17. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    Are there any reinforced bracings affixed in the Standedge disused bores ? If so, would they be the cause of any problems should re-opening be a considered option.
     
  18. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    There may be some in the completely disused bore, though I've never heard it mentioned- and given that reopening the unused tunnels has been talked about on-and-off for the last 10-15 years I'd have thought if there were any blockages or problems that you wouldn't need to be a civil engineer to spot- then this would have been mentioned on this forum by now! As for the emergency tunnel, I'm not sure if the fire appliances are able to run right through to Diggle (into 'enemy' territory!) or if there's similar access on the Lancashire side of the tunnel. However it's probably fair to say that this tunnel will at least have been maintained to a reasonable standard at least along the length that's required for access.
     
    Last edited: 8 Sep 2013
  19. Ploughman

    Ploughman Established Member

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    The single bores always used to be treated as one way traffic for any authorised vehicles.
    There was also the option of turning round and returning out the way you came in by the "Cathedral" in the centre of the tunnel, if your turning circle was small enough.

    Access to the canal can be made from either the current Up Line or from the Northern single track bore as the cross passages link to both tunnels and have bridges across the canal.

    Emergency vehicle access can always be provided by use of R/Rail vehicles as used by Avon Fire brigade for the Severn Tunnel, no need for tramway surfacing.
     
  20. lancastrian

    lancastrian Member

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    I know that this might sound like a simple idea, and I don't seem to have seen it suggested before in this discussion, although I could be wrong.

    If the express will catch up the stopper by New Mills Junction, then surely the simplest solution would be to put in loops and re-instated platforms at Chinley. Then any expresses from either Sheffield or Manchester can pass the stoppers at Chinley. Simples.
     
  21. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    Both you and I are of an age to recall when Chinley was of a different station layout to that of today.

    Even before our time, the rearranging works of 1902 saw five through platforms and one bay platform.
     
    Last edited: 8 Sep 2013
  22. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    The Northern Hub considered extra tracks at Chinley, and I guess it would be quite easy to put back some non-platform tracks round the outside though it looks like housing has been built where the southernmost platform used to be. Operationally it's not ideal though, as it is only a short distance from the junction where the slow and the fast trains take different routes. The ideal overtaking place would be about half way between Dore and Chinley but that is more difficult as it's in the National Park and this section was only ever double track with occasional sidings.
     
  23. Sapphire Blue

    Sapphire Blue Member

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    Stop right there fella!
    Diggle is not, and never was, in enemy territory.
    West Riding of Yorkshire pre 1974 and, whatever the politicians say, still is.
     
  24. lancastrian

    lancastrian Member

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    They ideal thing would to reopen the northern island platform, then you could have cross platform connections between fast services which use the route via Stockport and those slow services which use the old Mid?GCR route via Romiley.

    This would give the stations in the Hope Valley a decent connection to Manchester & London via Stockport.
     
  25. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    Some of these men of Yorkshire will not be happy until that county has another coastline running down the Irish Sea coast....:D
     
  26. Ploughman

    Ploughman Established Member

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    However on the Railway the boundary between what was Eastern and Midland regions upto at least 2010 was approx the West Portal of Standedge tunnel.
    Actually the small culvert a few yards west.

    So Diggle could be held to be in enemy territory.
     
  27. YorkshireBear

    YorkshireBear Established Member

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    I thought chinley was confirmed as getting extra tracks as part of the hub.
     
  28. Viscount702

    Viscount702 Member

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    This is what is quoted on the Hub fact sheet to be done at Chinley. The precise detail isn't known yet. Also as has been reported elsewhere the funding/timescale for the Hope Valley line is now possibly in doubt


    "Facts: We're adding an overtaking loop and providing the ability to terminate trains from Manchester without blocking the main line.

    Benefits: Trains going beyond Chinley can overtake terminating trains, reducing bottlenecks, and faster, more frequent trains can be operated between Manchester and Sheffield."
     
  29. noddingdonkey

    noddingdonkey Member

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    How will TPE cope with off-wire diversions once they've redeployed the 185s to non electric routes and 350s are the main traction?
     
  30. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Busses
     

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