Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Meerkat]

Besides, it's easier to get that bit paid for nationally by HS2 than to try to fit it into the 3bn

I was thinking of getting the bit needed by TRU agreed and paid for by DfT separate from the TRU budget.
Would give DfT a bit of “look we are serious about phase 2 -we have already started it” PR.
Doing the bit through Sheffield would also fit that and not be throwaway.

 

[jyte]

In fact his 'wasn't in the bag comment' was apparently meant to be a comment along the lines of 'the transport sector has to rally behind phase 2 to absolutely make sure it gets built'. Probably not his clearest comment....

 

[Class 170101]

In fact his 'wasn't in the bag comment' was apparently meant to be a comment along the lines of 'the transport sector has to rally behind phase 2 to absolutely make sure it gets built'. Probably not his clearest comment....

Actually I think Grayling was very clear, he isn't going to push the case its upto the transport sector and he won't push it along.

I'm sorry he has failed and its time for him to go!

 

[CrickUK]

I have noticed that Murphy have set up an extensive site compound in the station yard at Ulleskelf. Does any one know if this is a sign of an impending start on the works east of Leeds or is it there for some other reason?

 

[Ploughman]

I have noticed that Murphy have set up an extensive site compound in the station yard at Ulleskelf. Does any one know if this is a sign of an impending start on the works east of Leeds or is it there for some other reason?

Think this comment is relevant -

Two out of four bridges between Church Fenton and Colton Jnc have already been lifted as part of the original TP electrification scheme.

They would be Bolton Percy and Brumber Hill leaving Ulleskelf and Church Fenton bridges to complete.
I would imagine C Fenton to be the trickiest to rebuild.

Anyone know if Rose Lane Footbridge and the Station footbridge are to be upgraded as part of a follow on scheme?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I notice Modern Railways mentions twice in current issue that it has been as good as leaked even though not announced in Parliament that Huddersfield to Stalybridge core section is not getting electrified.

 

[deltic08]

I notice Modern Railways mentions twice in current issue that it has been as good as leaked even though not announced in Parliament that Huddersfield to Stalybridge core section is not getting electrified.

But don't they know down in London that this is the steepest part of the trans Pennine route and would benefit from electrification?

Electrify the billiard table GWML instead. Bonkers.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

But don't they know down in London that this is the steepest part of the trans Pennine route and would benefit most from electrification? Bonkers.

I totally hear you brother. Frustrating as f—-

 

[Spartacus]

To be fair it's also the area most likely to suffer from the wires being down as well. From a personal perspective use of bi-modes will at least leave some scope for continued running during such disruption, rather than the job coming to stop for all electric traction.

 

[Ploughman]

Does the stretch between Huddersfield and Stalybridge get many disruptions currently that would only affect OHLE in the future?

 

[hwl]

But don't they know down in London that this is the steepest part of the trans Pennine route and would benefit from electrification?

Electrify the billiard table GWML instead. Bonkers.

Transpennine Electrification is about more than just Transpennine services, lots of local service West of Staylbridge and East of Hudderfield will help the numbers look better in both locations and "Northern" have lots of DMUs that will be life expired around a first round of electrification is finished and could ideally be replaced with longer EMUs, This isn't the case with TP rolling stock. When either side of the gap is completed (along with other upgrades) and is up and running it then become far easier to justify the gap.
Small or infill type schemes are the way to go to get things approved at the moment.

 

[edwin_m]

Does the stretch between Huddersfield and Stalybridge get many disruptions currently that would only affect OHLE in the future?

The main problem areas for wind on OLE tend to be where the line is running across a flat moorland at high altitude perpendicular to the strongest winds, especially if it is on an embankment which will strengthen the wind passing over the track. The area around Shap summit is a classic example, where extra OLE supports were put in soon after the original electrification. From Stalybridge the line runs up the valley of the Tame and the Diggle Brook, then tunnels through to follow the valley of the Colne down into Huddersfield. So I would guess it would be rather less prone to OLE damage than some other places are.

 

[Ploughman]

That was my thoughts as well.

 

[Chris125]

But don't they know down in London that this is the steepest part of the trans Pennine route and would benefit from electrification?

Electrify the billiard table GWML instead. Bonkers.

Sadly it's the only sensible thing to do, especially if there are plans for NPR to bypass it.

Until Network Rail prove they can deliver electrification timely and affordably they should steer well clear of Stalybridge-Huddersfield, surely one of the hardest routes to wire in the whole country - the last thing we need is another high-profile failure.

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect lack of decision/commitment on NPR is stalling anything on the TP upgrade as well as various other transport projects in the North. For example NPR could provide extra east-west capacity across Manchester that might be considered a reason not to do anything costly in the Castlefield Corridor.

 

[AndrewE]

Sadly it's the only sensible thing to do, especially if there are plans for NPR to bypass it.

Until Network Rail prove they can deliver electrification timely and affordably they should steer well clear of Stalybridge-Huddersfield, surely one of the hardest routes to wire in the whole country - the last thing we need is another high-profile failure.

Well if NPR is going to follow on from HS2 something needs to be done a lot sooner.
And re your comment (bolded above) what basis have you got for the assertion? We have challenged it here and so far the only difficulty that holds water is the proximity of the houses at Mossley, which could probably be bought for around £500k

 

[Chris125]

I suspect lack of decision/commitment on NPR is stalling anything on the TP upgrade as well as various other transport projects in the North. For example NPR could provide extra east-west capacity across Manchester that might be considered a reason not to do anything costly in the Castlefield Corridor.

That seems likely, especially with the talk of Liverpool-Manchester being prioritised.

Well if NPR is going to follow on from HS2 something needs to be done a lot sooner.

Of course, and something *is* going to be done - NR have £3bn to spend on the Transpennine Upgrade.

And re your comment (bolded above) what basis have you got for the assertion?

Virtually everything I've seen and read over the years? Seems pretty obvious to me - tight clearances, lots of curves, limited access points etc etc.

 

[LM93]

Another problem is the ridiculous amount of bridges over that section that are grade listed.

 

[59CosG95]

Another problem is the ridiculous amount of bridges over that section that are grade listed.

If that's the case, it's hardly surprising that Grayling's baulked over it, given the farce with the listed bridge at Steventon! Then again, as Secretaries of State for Transport go, he does seem to have a distinctive lack of vertebrae...

 

[Bantamzen]

That seems likely, especially with the talk of Liverpool-Manchester being prioritised.

There is growing unease east of the Pennines that various improvement works might be getting pushed back because of ongoing & planned work to the west. If there is even a tiny amount of truth in that, this could quite quickly spell the end of NPR as various stakeholders from the various regions start to fight over priorities. But uncertainty in things like platform lengthening away from the North TP & other station improvements seemingly being delayed is not helping the mood.

Of course, and something *is* going to be done - NR have £3bn to spend on the Transpennine Upgrade.

"Is hoped to be" is what you should still be saying, no definitive final plans have been laid and so any number of improvements could be shelved at the stroke of a pen.

Virtually everything I've seen and read over the years? Seems pretty obvious to me - tight clearances, lots of curves, limited access points etc etc.

Is it really any more difficult than other routes that have been wired? As previously mentioned, aside from the issues of the housea close to the wire height at Mosseley a lot of people don't consider this to be the hardest route to wire. And if stringing a couple of wires with associated infrastructure is going to be too hard to contemplate, then forget ever seeing a brand new alignment under the Pennines any time this century!

 

[AndrewE]

That seems likely, especially with the talk of Liverpool-Manchester being prioritised.
Of course, and something *is* going to be done - NR have £3bn to spend on the Transpennine Upgrade.

Yeah, right. And Stalybridge to Huddersfield?

Virtually everything I've seen and read over the years? Seems pretty obvious to me - tight clearances, lots of curves, limited access points etc etc.

Another problem is the ridiculous amount of bridges over that section that are grade listed.

There's some pathetic excuses being dredged up now. JFDI.
It is reasonable to say that NPR might one day remove the Castlefield corridor problem, also that a new Pennine base tunnel would side-step most of the loading-gauge problems (and possibly should be the first priority) but that will still leave the current problems to be endured for several more decades, plus a non-electrified commuter and diversionary route serving 2 big conurbations.

 

[B Box]

Well now, it seems the exciting prospect of mains electric/diesel bi-mode is on the horizon for trans-pennine services.

Before this gets set in concrete, and CG said last year passengers didn’t care so long as the trains got you there, or something similar, it is worth saying that to major on the benefits to passengers is a somewhat defensive strategy and for good reason.

Long bi-mode trains on their diesel sections means heavier trains means noisier trains especially in hilly areas with valleys to trap the noise and pollution, which affects passengers and lineside residents 24/7 amplified by more and faster services.

All electric in these areas benefits both passengers and local residents, so any attempt at stating equivalence between bi-mode and electric is a false comparison.

Bi-mode is rather like the Victorians planning long term use of the first trans-pennine rail link using a mixture of steam trains, canals and stage coaches, where the stage coaches, horses and hay are carried onboard the train.

After all the comments about fossil fuels we plan to use them as a key part of a major transport link, probably because Network Rail couldn’t project manage a raffle.

This route is not some rural branch line which will never be electrified, and where bi-mode might make some sense, it’s the major link across the Pennines.

You would hope the local MP’s and Councils would step up to the mark on behalf of the public in areas which would be most affected, starting now.

Oh but don’t ask Leeds City Council or you will end up with hundreds of bi-mode buses on the M62.

 

[matacaster]

Yeah, right. And Stalybridge to Huddersfield?

There's some pathetic excuses being dredged up now. JFDI.
It is reasonable to say that NPR might one day remove the Castlefield corridor problem, also that a new Pennine base tunnel would side-step most of the loading-gauge problems (and possibly should be the first priority) but that will still leave the current problems to be endured for several more decades, plus a non-electrified commuter and diversionary route serving 2 big conurbations.

It is more reasonable to say that NPR will morph into the dead parrot sketch. NPR is unlikely ever to see the light of day.

-it will be found to be around £20Bn once they have realised that there are no minor mods which will allow a Bradford central stop and a straight-ish route will involve lots of tunnelling. Indeed its not all that clear to me how the Bradford station can be above ground given the topography.0
-its not in London and the local workforce is unlikely to be of interest to businesses in London
-Whilst the time savings between Newcastle and Liverpool are decent, I suspect most journeys are much shorter - Manchester to Liverpool, Leeds top Manchester, Newcastle to Leeds, Huddersfield to Manchester / airport and Leeds etc. For many of these the time savings, especially once the TPE upgrade has been completed will be relatively small and not worth the cost. -When someone in authority realises that what we need is LONGER trains on TPE ie 8 or 9 coach (to cater for growth) and 4 or 5 per hour is perfectly ok and that is relatively cheap and quick to achieve (political brownie points) then NPR will doubtless get dumped (along with the hapless Chris Grayling).
-Electrifiying the whole TPE route could be doen for a small fraction of cost of NPR
-Bradford is not exactly a 'destination of choioce'

 

[Bantamzen]

It is more reasonable to say that NPR will morph into the dead parrot sketch. NPR is unlikely ever to see the light of day.

-it will be found to be around £20Bn once they have realised that there are no minor mods which will allow a Bradford central stop and a straight-ish route will involve lots of tunnelling. Indeed its not all that clear to me how the Bradford station can be above ground given the topography.0
-its not in London and the local workforce is unlikely to be of interest to businesses in London
-Whilst the time savings between Newcastle and Liverpool are decent, I suspect most journeys are much shorter - Manchester to Liverpool, Leeds top Manchester, Newcastle to Leeds, Huddersfield to Manchester / airport and Leeds etc. For many of these the time savings, especially once the TPE upgrade has been completed will be relatively small and not worth the cost. -When someone in authority realises that what we need is LONGER trains on TPE ie 8 or 9 coach (to cater for growth) and 4 or 5 per hour is perfectly ok and that is relatively cheap and quick to achieve (political brownie points) then NPR will doubtless get dumped (along with the hapless Chris Grayling).
-Electrifiying the whole TPE route could be doen for a small fraction of cost of NPR
-Bradford is not exactly a 'destination of choioce'

Putting aside the rather snide references to the people of Bradford, its worth remembering that the wider Metropolitan area of Bradford is growing rapidly, with large number of new build homes planned both in the centre and without. This will mean additional demand out, and into the city & to its suburbs. And as anyone who knows the topography, new road building is difficult at best and so either the city's roads become even more congested, or other means are found to allow commuters living in Bradford to reach jobs beyond a radius of a few miles. Plus with many filmmakers making use of locations again within the Metropolitan area, demand is growing in the tourism sector too. This is in part why Bradford has been considered in the early concepts of NPR.

However, I do agree that there is more chance of me winning big in tomorrow's EuroMillions than of NPR actually happening at all, let alone passing through the city. I also agree that the priority should be to wire the full length of the North TP first, with a view to also planning for future wiring of the Calder Valley.

 

[DarloRich]

I notice Modern Railways mentions twice in current issue that it has been as good as leaked even though not announced in Parliament that Huddersfield to Stalybridge core section is not getting electrified.

madness. is there any reasoning presented?

But don't they know down in London that this is the steepest part of the trans Pennine route and would benefit from electrification?

Electrify the billiard table GWML instead. Bonkers.

Brace yourself - I agree (at least on the TPE section. GW electrification delivers benefits as well but for other reasons)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

madness. is there any reasoning presented?

The way I read it "cost, cost, cost and cost.

 

[AndrewE]

The way I read it "cost, cost, cost and cost.

Is that just because NR have over-run badly on most other jobs recently, or have you got any specific areas or features that you think will cause these unquantified and unidentified extra costs? Between Stalybridge and Huddersfield there aren't anything like the coal mines that existed once upon a time between Manchester and Preston, you know...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I will reread the article and get back to you. I would still hope there would be an official announcement and then The Transport Select Committee to cross-examine the SoS

 

[CdBrux]

Assuming the presentation from almost 2 years ago is still valid (where the main gains are, i.e. not electrification) then I would hope the priority is to the non electrification part of the project as they will deliver the capacity and speed and from what I see NR are far better at doing that kind of thing to budget. What we don't want is the electrification that does happen, that adds little to capacity or speed, to go way over budget as seems normal and blow the budget so other things cannot be done or are delayed

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Assuming the presentation from almost 2 years ago is still valid (where the main gains are, i.e. not electrification) then I would hope the priority is to the non electrification part of the project as they will deliver the capacity and speed and from what I see NR are far better at doing that kind of thing to budget. What we don't want is the electrification that does happen, that adds little to capacity or speed, to go way over budget as seems normal and blow the budget so other things cannot be done or are delayed

I hear what you are saying. So, speed improvements and probable electrification to Stalybridge with all the little infills around Baguley fold Jct. Then York-Leeds and to Selby then Leeds - Huddersfield with 4 tracking Heaton Lodge to Ravensthorpe with electrification. The advantage of this is, the core Huddersfield to Stalybridge can be done by another government.