Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Kieran1990]

Could this be extended from Wakefield to Leeds to satisfy the TPE franchise agreement of 6tph between Leeds and Manchester? Or is this theory completely unrealistic due to a lack of platform space at Leeds? Still good for Wakefield to have a direct service to Manchester.

By the way, due the current three car Huddersfield to Manchester shuttles get busy by Stalybridge?

I suspect lack of platform space at Leeds- especially as they are 6 car and would come off the Woodlesford line and most us 17 which doesn’t fit 6 car I think?, and using 15/16 wouldn’t be an option as it is used by most of the north TP expresses

 

[Grumpy]

From May, the MAN - HUD stopper has been extended to Wakefield Kirkgate. This is to allow it to run as 6 cars .

Well that should be OK for Social distancing. The passengers can almost have a coach each to themselves

 

[The Ham]

Oh come on. Near trebling, which is what has been seen for some products, is not a ‘modest jump’.

Whilst there would always be things which couldn't be planned for having a bit more stock in each shop, and also within wearhousing, would clearly have eased the obvious empty shelves and therefore reduced the amount of panic buying.

Locally to my there's a village (probably a town but the locals like to think of it as a village still) where the local supermarket was too small for when it was built in the 1990's, since then there's been about 500 homes built, even a decade ago someone expected it as a rubbish supermarket but a brilliant corner shop (think a step up from an express but not by very much). There's been planning granted for a second supermarket (2.5 times the size, and no it's that not large it's just the other is so small) to be built, yet it hasn't been built yet.

However if it had been built then:
There would have been a lot more stock
There would have been more delivery slots (the new one would have done deliver whilst the current one doesn't as it's too small)
The pressure on other supermarkets in nearby settlements would have been reduced

All in all it would have been quite a lot better, but because there's no slack designed into the systems things haven't gone as well as they could have done.

It's not that it would have done badly under normal circumstances either as the settlement has a population of 9,000 and has a number of smaller settlements around and about which don't have much more than express type stores.

 

[Class 170101]

Oh come on. Near trebling, which is what has been seen for some products, is not a ‘modest jump’.

Supermarkets cope that at Christmas but that comes once a year and is planned for. This trebling was virtually immediate - and its no wonder the supply chain has been exposed.

I'm not sure the railways could cope should the Queen die tomorrow.

 

[tpjm]

Could this be extended from Wakefield to Leeds to satisfy the TPE franchise agreement of 6tph between Leeds and Manchester? Or is this theory completely unrealistic due to a lack of platform space at Leeds? Still good for Wakefield to have a direct service to Manchester.

By the way, due the current three car Huddersfield to Manchester shuttles get busy by Stalybridge?

I don't know what purpose it would serve going through to Leeds via that route other than to add an extra service between Leeds and Huddersfield which is currently plentiful already. There also wouldn't be any platform space at Leeds - there already isn't room to fit a 6-car Leeds-Huddersfield stopper at Leeds, even if there was room at Huddersfield!

The MAN - HUD stopper is busy. In the morning, a 3 car train is standing by Greenfield and that's before Mossley and Stalybridge. Similarly in the evening, coming out of Manchester, it's usually busy until after Greenfield. (and that's not just one train - I'm talking for about 3 hours AM and PM with two trains per hour, 1x 6 and 1x 3. This capacity is needed.)

 

[mwmbwls]

The DfT were supposed to be publishing the Transport Works Act documentation relating to the Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade, which some sources suggest electrification shortly. Does anybody have details of the overall scope of works. It starts from Manchester Victoria and continues via Stalybridge to Huddersfield and Leeds. Is it then projected out to the ECML - if so where on the ECML? Is the link from Stalybridge to Guide Bridge included in any electrification scheme - allowing stock to access the Ardwick maintenance facility without taken paths through the Castlefield corridor and as an emergency route to Piccadilly?

 

[Bald Rick]

The DfT were supposed to be publishing the Transport Works Act documentation relating to the Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade, which some sources suggest electrification shortly. Does anybody have details of the overall scope of works. It starts from Manchester Victoria and continues via Stalybridge to Huddersfield and Leeds. Is it then projected out to the ECML - if so where on the ECML? Is the link from Stalybridge to Guide Bridge included in any electrification scheme - allowing stock to access the Ardwick maintenance facility without taken paths through the Castlefield corridor and as an emergency route to Piccadilly?

The project is Manchester Vic - York via Huddersfield (and Leeds, obviously).

Full scope not decided yet. I’d be amazed if electrification isn’t back on the agenda.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The project is Manchester Vic - York via Huddersfield (and Leeds, obviously).

Full scope not decided yet. I’d be amazed if electrification isn’t back on the agenda.

Indeed. I expect some overlap into CP7 though for the entire route to be electrified. Don't want to get into the speculative ideas section but Man Vic to Stalybridge and electrification. Huddersfield to Leeds York and Selby. Middle bit CP7 would make quite a bit of sense to me.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed. I expect some overlap into CP7 though for the entire route to be electrified. Don't want to get into the speculative ideas section but Man Vic to Stalybridge and electrification. Huddersfield to Leeds York and Selby. Middle bit CP7 would make quite a bit of sense to me.

It will be well into CP7 before it’s all done, and probably into CP8.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Speaking of Selby, does anybody know if its possible to electrify the swing bridge without preventing it from turning ?

Apologizes if this has been covered before.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Speaking of Selby, does anybody know if its possible to electrify the swing bridge without preventing it from turning ?

Apologizes if this has been covered before.

It should be possible, I don't know of anything specific to the Selby bridge that would prevent solid conductor bars being fitted to both tracks. Trowse swing bridge on the London to Norwich line is electrified (though single-track) and I believe there are several electrified moving bridges in the Netherlands.

 

[Bald Rick]

It should be possible, I don't know of anything specific to the Selby bridge that would prevent solid conductor bars being fitted to both tracks. Trowse swing bridge on the London to Norwich line is electrified (though single-track) and I believe there are several electrified moving bridges in the Netherlands.

Rather easier with single track.

 

[edwin_m]

One solution, I think, is to have solid bar overhead with a hinged section over the join that lifts out before the bridge swings. It may also be possible to do it with the OLE at different heights on the two tracks, so one passes under the other as the bridge swings, with the supports positioned far enough back that they aren't hit by the overlapping section. It probably helps that the line speed at Selby is fairly low.

 

[Spartacus]

I wonder if one solution might be to dispense with the bar idea and have the join between the two sections below the box? If set up correctly the attachments and balances could be set in a manner so that each side was aligned when the bridge was straight, but moved apart as the bridge swung, the balance weights holding the wire in tension as the pulleys drew them out. Similar to how it normally works, but with a horizonal as well as verticle pull.

Anyway, it's been done elsewhere, so there's probably a fairly simple solution to it, nothing to be worried about.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Or perhaps and auto pan dropper device and coast across the bridge. Would line speed preclude that idea?

 

[edwin_m]

Or perhaps and auto pan dropper device and coast across the bridge. Would line speed preclude that idea?

It's near the station so stopping trains would be going quite slowly.

 

[mwmbwls]

Furrer and Frey fixed-bar catenary equipment is fitted to lift bridges in the Netherlands

Furrer+Frey overhead contact lines - about us

www.furrerfrey.ch

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's near the station so stopping trains would be going quite slowly.

Similar to the issue of houses with rear balconies close to the line at Mossley: a neutral section would be a problem for stopping services setting off from Mossley towards Manchester. However at least Mossley has non-stop services, Selby AFAIK has very few if any at all.

 

[Starmill]

Electrification from Selby to Hull was proposed, but then cancelled. Presumably it's therefore undoubtedly technically feasible. There is undoubtedly no prospect of the idea returning yet, either.

 

[quantinghome]

Electrification from Selby to Hull was proposed, but then cancelled. Presumably it's therefore undoubtedly technically feasible. There is undoubtedly no prospect of the idea returning yet, either.

Although there have been no announcements as yet, there does seem to be a groundswell of opinion moving in favour of further electrification, possibly on a rolling basis. I wouldn't be surprised if Selby-Hull got the nod sooner rather than later.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wouldn't be surprised if Selby-Hull got the nod sooner rather than later.

I would, as the benefit is rather small compared to many other electrification proposals (core Transpennine, MML, Oxford, Bristol, London Gateway, Feliixstowe Branch, etc).

 

[Glenn1969]

I can see Micklefield to Hull being wired to stop unnecessary diesels running under the wires on the core Transpennine network. At some stage,

 

[Bald Rick]

I can see Micklefield to Hull being wired to stop unnecessary diesels running under the wires on the core Transpennine network. At some stage,

At some stage, but no time soon.

I foresee:

Core Transpennine route electrified Manchester - York
Newcastle (Edinburgh if they are still happening) services going over to all electric operation
Hull / xxxboro’ services using bimodes.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Middlesbrough bimode?

 

[Bald Rick]

Middlesbrough bimode?

That’s my guess.

 

[quantinghome]

Well fair enough, it's not going to be before Transpennine electrification, but it will happen due to one or both of the following things:

1. I understand the existing line is constrained by poor ground conditions which impose speed restrictions on heavier trains. Moving to lighter electric-only traction may allow a speed increase.
2. It is surely inconceivable that NPR will use hybrid trains rather than electric-only, which means electrification if Hull is to be on NPR.

 

[Iskra]

Not strictly correct.

Hull - Manchester Piccadilly services currently do all stops between Huddersfield and Manchester in the peaks. From last December, both of the stoppers (Man - Hud and Hud - Leeds) were supposed to also go to six cars. This wasn’t possible due to Platform 0 not being built on time at Leeds and TPE not having enough spare Cl185s.

From May, the MAN - HUD stopper has been extended to Wakefield Kirkgate. This is to allow it to run as 6 cars (as there isn’t enough capacity at HUD). Leeds will have to wait until there is adequate platform capacity. This is something that RNP are very keen to see as there is definitely sufficient demand at peak.

Where will this call (if anywhere) between Huddersfield and Wakefield?

That could be an excellent service for Wakefield to gain. Direct Manchester trains could really help both Wakefield as a town and Kirkgate station.

 

[quantinghome]

That could be an excellent service for Wakefield to gain. Direct Manchester trains could really help both Wakefield as a town and Kirkgate station.

This is how towns not served by NPR will gain from NPR. Imagine the services that could be run once the fast transpennine services are moved onto a new line.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well fair enough, it's not going to be before Transpennine electrification, but it will happen due to one or both of the following things:

1. I understand the existing line is constrained by poor ground conditions which impose speed restrictions on heavier trains. Moving to lighter electric-only traction may allow a speed increase.
2. It is surely inconceivable that NPR will use hybrid trains rather than electric-only, which means electrification if Hull is to be on NPR.

1) if electric trains could meet the conditions for the existing SP speed profile, then yes, but note that the electric Class 800 series trains don’t meet this AIUI. But it would be the hell of an expensive way of saving a couple of minutes.

2) I can see hybrid trains on NPR, why not? There’s hybrid trains on high speed lines in Spain.

In any event, NPR is probably around 20 years away.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well fair enough, it's not going to be before Transpennine electrification, but it will happen due to one or both of the following things:

1. I understand the existing line is constrained by poor ground conditions which impose speed restrictions on heavier trains. Moving to lighter electric-only traction may allow a speed increase.
2. It is surely inconceivable that NPR will use hybrid trains rather than electric-only, which means electrification if Hull is to be on NPR.

I don't believe 1. to be the case, as there are no significant SP, MU or HST speeds through the core at all, and it's only at the extremities of the line where the 185s are subject to speed restrictions. Surely if the ground conditions were particularly poor there would be significant restrictions for these heavy units? One of the reasons they can have so much power and weight (for improved tractive effort) is that the route they were designed for didn't require them to meet the weight requirements for differential speeds.

The ground around Mirfield probably isn't the easiest to work with when doing the big work for the upgrade (I heard the water table is quite high round there) but I don't think the existing formation has any major issues. It even manages to avoid all (or most) of the old mine workings that the West Riding is littered with.