Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates, CP6

GRALISTAIR

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And also far easier to push for sign off on the last 25% later as well.

Some bits will be technically harder than others needing lots more design and optioneering
Some bits will be more disruptive than other
Some bits will be much quicker to complete than others.

Hence there would probably be a 4-5 year range in completion dates between the first and last section even if all were approved now. Hence the Bi-modes allow each section to be used as it becomes available.

Unlike many previous scheme there is less pressure from electric only new stock being ordered and delivered. Flexing delivery date not cost to hit a deadline will be the name of the game.
I had not thought of it that way - but yes. Also no pressure from the Persons of Reduced Mobility legislation deadline because all trains in future will be compliant anyway.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Would anyone be able to quote the full text, I'm not registered and therefore can't read this article myself?
The RG article isn't behind a paywall and can normally be read without any trouble.
The guts of it is taken from the DfT announcement anyway.

The more I read Shapps' remarks about full electrification, 4-tracking and extra freight provision makes me think that the L&Y route will be wired as well.
That achieves 4 tracks and freight capacity over much of the route without the huge cost of widening the routes through Morley and Mossley.
You also get a lot more benefit from DMU-EMU conversion or bi-mode operation if both routes are wired.
 

GRALISTAIR

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So do the blockades mid year rather than when people will be jetting away, but over lots of weekends.

Possibly even a week in August, but not over the Bank Holiday weekend.
Weekends in Mid year, like Summer? What’s airport traffic like then?
The oft quoted PWI lecture on the scheme and has been referenced many times already did the work and showed and agreed by many that summer closures when schools and universities etc were out were the best time for closures not winter. It was then pointed out in the presentation that also helps with the atrocious weather across the Pennines in winter. I am sure this has not changed. Summer June - September will be when a lot of work gets done.
 

GRALISTAIR

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The Modern Railways enews letter interpretation

And for completeness the Rail Technology Magazine version
 

Mollman

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Did I dream of the time Doncaster to Hull was going to be electrified? A company called Hull Trains was so keen on that and made it sound like it was going to happen by about now!

The directors of the North Eastern Railway in 1914 would be fascinated to see how far we've not got in over 100 years! Their plans to electrify the East Coast mainline came to grief with WW1. Can COVID have the opposite effect by accelerating electrification today?
Indeed Hull - Selby - Templehurst Jnc was a Hull Trains offer of private funding (or contribution) with the aim of linking in with the original TP Electrification plan which would have seen the wires from the west stop at Selby. Hull Trains felt it was a win-win as they would invest in EMUs (to replace DMUs) and get a longer licence whilst NR / DfT got money which covered all or most of the cost of electrification to allow Manchester - Hull trains (and by common sense YOrk - Hull trains via ECML or with a bit more electrification) to also convert from DMU to EMU.

As for the NER scheme, a very interesting What If, just like what if the NER had been the more influencial party in LNER instead of GN, would we have seen a Southern style electrification programme?
 

hwl

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The oft quoted PWI lecture on the scheme and has been referenced many times already did the work and showed and agreed by many that summer closures when schools and universities etc were out were the best time for closures not winter. It was then pointed out in the presentation that also helps with the atrocious weather across the Pennines in winter. I am sure this has not changed. Summer June - September will be when a lot of work gets done.
Indeed , there is a lot more to traffic on the routes affected by TRU than just Airport traffic or even TP traffic.

In terms of being able to run passenger services including diversions the short section of 4 tracking and grade separation and electrification between Heaton Lodge and Thornhill Junction will be the most problematic as regards closures and limited alternatives and alternative capacity. Colton Jn to Church Fenton is in theory similarly high impact in terms of lack of alternatives etc. but it is already 4 track and needs far less work.
There is some optimisation to be done in terms of how much is done at once in terms of limiting closure time vs total impact of a closure.
 

BigCj34

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Which will be able to divert via alternate routes during engineering and other disruption, resulting in a minimum amount of bustitution. Those alternatives, Hebden Bridge, Wakefield Kirkgate, and Castleford, are a long way from all being electrified. Long may hybrids continue on the route, for the passengers’ sake.
Bi-modes are fine for now. Though in the future, should the whole route be electrified, then the rolling stock used could be switched to all-electric if it provides any tangible improvement in journey times.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Bi-modes are fine for now. Though in the future, should the whole route be electrified, then the rolling stock used could be switched to all-electric if it provides any tangible improvement in journey times.
I think that is what the TDNS document is hoping to show and document. Bi-modes - complete electrification - get new electric only trains - train the drivers -cascade the bimodes. Rinse and repeat.
 

Class 170101

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Weekends in Mid year, like Summer? What’s airport traffic like then?
Based on my experience of Stansted Airport it tends to be in January (after New Year rush back) and February and later in the year in November that this airport is quieter. Looking at Rules of the Route for Manchester Airport its not far out, being Mid February to end of March and last week of October until December timetable change where the disruptive access is.
 

Bald Rick

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Indeed Hull - Selby - Templehurst Jnc was a Hull Trains offer of private funding
HT wanted some fairly substantial guarantees from government though, and I’m not sure their cost estimates would have held. I suspect if it had progressed, we’d now be looking st a Government rescue of a half finished job, using up cash that could be better deployed elsewhere.


Based on my experience of Stansted Airport it tends to be in January (after New Year rush back) and February and later in the year in November that this airport is quieter. Looking at Rules of the Route for Manchester Airport its not far out, being Mid February to end of March and last week of October until December timetable change where the disruptive access is.
The quietest month for air travel in this country is November. Very few people go on holiday that month, but they do the rest of the year round.
 

ohgoditsjames

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Are we ever gonna actually get any proper funding for Sheffield rail lines? We’re still sat here with ZERO electrification, ZERO commitment from NPR and HS2 and we’re stuck with the painfully inadequate Hope Valley Line.
 
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Killingworth

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Are we ever gonna actually get any proper funding for Sheffield rail lines? We’re still sat here with ZERO electrification, ZERO commitment from NPR it HS2 and we’re stuck with the painfully inadequate Hope Valley Line.
MML electrification through to Leeds and Doncaster would be a good start for Sheffield. How many years ago was that promised? But I digress.

As far as Transpennine is concerned the Hope Valley Line improvements due by the end of 2023 will make a small improvement to what is currently available. If we see blockades for electrification to the North it is likely some diversionary capacity wil be required. The configuration after 2023 won't allow many extra paths for that .

Some attention to signalling west from Earles Sidings and addition of bi-directional capacity at key points would assist by providing more flexibility, but essentially the nature of the line doesn't lend itself to major line speed improvements.
 

Seehof

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Put the TPE trains from the Leeds direction to the airport back reversing at Piccadilly as they used to do. That is a major improvement and enhancement without any expenditure needed.
 

CW2

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Put the TPE trains from the Leeds direction to the airport back reversing at Piccadilly as they used to do. That is a major improvement and enhancement without any expenditure needed.
Except they need to go right across the station throat at Piccadilly to achieve this, bringing all other movements to a standstill. That is why the route via platforms 13/14 is preferred.

It might be a good time to review just how many trains we need to send to Manchester Airport per hour, and where they need to come from. The current aim of unconstrained growth isn't really supportable.
 

GRALISTAIR

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It might be a good time to review just how many trains we need to send to Manchester Airport per hour, and where they need to come from. The current aim of unconstrained growth isn't really supportable.
Agreed. Not without massive infrastructure spending and in a post Covid world.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Except they need to go right across the station throat at Piccadilly to achieve this, bringing all other movements to a standstill. That is why the route via platforms 13/14 is preferred.

It might be a good time to review just how many trains we need to send to Manchester Airport per hour, and where they need to come from. The current aim of unconstrained growth isn't really supportable.
That genie is well and truly out of the bottle now - passenger numbers have doubled in a little under 10 years, and that's despite Metrolink reaching the airport in 2014. The service is as well used by staff at the airport as it is by travellers/holidaymakers, which means an irregular service, which might be acceptable to travellers, isn't acceptable to the airport staff.
 

CW2

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That genie is well and truly out of the bottle now - passenger numbers have doubled in a little under 10 years, and that's despite Metrolink reaching the airport in 2014. The service is as well used by staff at the airport as it is by travellers/holidaymakers, which means an irregular service, which might be acceptable to travellers, isn't acceptable to the airport staff.
I can't disagree with any of that. However it is increasingly clear that the Airport - Piccadilly - Victoria corridor needs a thorough review and timetable overhaul, with a view to providing a regular, predictable, reliable service. For example:
- Should there be fewer trains per hour through 13/14 at Piccadilly;
- Should each train through 13/14 be a minimum of 4 vehicles - and more if possible;
- Where should trains run to from the Airport, and at what frequency / stopping pattern;
Then you get into the wider question of where the trans-Pennine services should run, and how frequently.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I've never understood why the airport is so hard to reach for the early bank of departures when huge numbers need to check in from 6am - or earlier.
Return from the airport in the evenings is poor too, even with connections.
Many LCC flights start early and get back late to fit 3 return flights in a day to the Med.
Early/late TP services are actually better provided for currently than places on the Northern/TfW networks.
I know, just what the engineers on the TP upgrade need - more services eating into their precious possession time!
 

Class 170101

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I've never understood why the airport is so hard to reach for the early bank of departures when huge numbers need to check in from 6am - or earlier.
Return from the airport in the evenings is poor too, even with connections.
Many LCC flights start early and get back late to fit 3 return flights in a day to the Med.
Early/late TP services are actually better provided for currently than places on the Northern/TfW networks.
I know, just what the engineers on the TP upgrade need - more services eating into their precious possession time!
It won't be just the engineers on the upgrade but the usual maintenance team as well.

They should also wire the link between Bolton and Wigan in addition to the Calder Valley.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates; any ideas/suggestions belong in Speculative Ideas.

It can be difficult to keep up with threads that have thousands of posts and the forum does have plenty of spare capacity to discuss other matters in their own threads in the relevant forum sections, to make it easier to follow the electrification updates in this thread.

Thanks :)


 
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SuperNova

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Ultimately it is down to the treasury. As long as there's political will (which there seems to be to keep the Tory's new seats and voters happy), then it will happen in full. Hopefully, those voices involved in TfN like Burnham are also ignored RE TRU, whose sole drive is HS3.
 

sportzbar

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As I write this contractors are preparing to drill exploratory holes in the small patch of land behind my house for electrification works. I live beside the line between Ashton-under-lyne and Stalybridge
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I am still unsure what work has been authorised to work until completion! Is it just one stretch of wiring and the rest is planning and enabling works?
This is my take.
The Church Fenton scheme is approved in full.
I think the Leeds-Huddersfield scheme (4-tracking, remodelling and resignalling) is approved but I'm not sure about the wiring.
The Miles Platting remodelling scheme has not been specifically mentioned but is also probably approved.
The rest of the route will still be at the planning stage, with a decision due at the end of the year when NR has produced and costed the plans.

I think the mood music for full electrification is good at the moment but it has to last until the specific go-ahead is given and contracts are in place.
As we have seen before, projects can be stopped/scaled down even after "approval".
The next positive sign will be when NR awards delivery contracts to the major suppliers (some framework contracts are already in place).
 

Grumpy

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What is meant by “the Church Fenton scheme”?
Has this been published anywhere? Is this for two tracks or four?
I can’t fathom out how you can make any sort of Business Case for just electrifying from York to Church Fenton.
 
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What is meant by “the Church Fenton scheme”?
Has this been published anywhere? Is this for two tracks or four?
I can’t fathom out how you can make any sort of Business Case for just electrifying from York to Church Fenton.
It’s this - https://www.networkrail.co.uk/runni...ade/york-to-church-fenton-improvement-scheme/

Our work
Over the next three years, we will:

  • Replace old track, sleepers, and ballast (The stones which support the track)
  • Install new signalling gantries, lights, and cabling
  • Fully electrify the route from York to Church Fenton – extending the already electrified railway from York”
On another note it seems like track renewals is going to be a significant part of the TPRU scheme. The Q&A video from the PWI lecture is quite informative (watch from 3:50 to 5:50):
 
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