Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[gimmea50anyday]

Please forgive my ignorance but is Leeds to York definitely going to be electrified or not? I get the impression it is not. I seem to remember there were plans for a reversing siding at Micklefield once.

Leeds-York has always been a “missing link” since intercity days. In the original ECML electrification plans the wires weren’t going to Neville hill which would have meant diesel haulage from station to depot. Operationally that would have been a pain in the a55! However electrification will be happening (at some stage) as work has started on wiring as far as Church Fenton from York in preparation for HS2 joining the ECML at that point and to close the gap for TPE. Plans beyond Church Fenton through Micklefield still need approval however but it is progressing

 

[edwin_m]

Achievable speed from a station stop should not be a factor in the application of approach control - as one day there will be a non-stop service...

However a speed restriction could be applied at a speed that makes no difference unless that notional non-stopper turns up, but reduces the need for signaling complications.

Aren't they paired by use, as they always were? I thought the northern pair are the down and up fast, the southern pair the down and up slow, with the fasts at Miles Platting continuing as the Rochdale lines and the slow as the Stalybridge lines. So a train that has left Victoria on the down slow will face neither crossover nor junction at Miles Platting but will just carry straight on round the corner—there's no question of any approach control being needed. (And likewise anything leaving Victoria on the down fast gets a clear run towards Rochdale.)

Yes it is, so the point is moot (in fact there are no points at all...). Any approach control or flashing yellows will only apply to trains making crossing moves.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Aren't they paired by use, as they always were? I thought the northern pair are the down and up fast, the southern pair the down and up slow, with the fasts at Miles Platting continuing as the Rochdale lines and the slow as the Stalybridge lines. So a train that has left Victoria on the down slow will face neither crossover nor junction at Miles Platting but will just carry straight on round the corner—there's no question of any approach control being needed. (And likewise anything leaving Victoria on the down fast gets a clear run towards Rochdale.)

Yes, that's right.
The current junction at Miles Platting is a left hand ladder to/from the Rochdale route.
The last junction for Stalybridge eastbound from Victoria is at Vic East Jn/Bromley St Jn (at the end of the current electrification run).
From Victoria, the lines from north to south are named Down/Up Rochdale Fast and Down/Up Rochdale Slow.
After Miles Platting Jn they change to Down/Up Rochdale and Down/Up Ashton.

 

[jfollows]

Miles Platting diagram attached for information

 

[CW2]

OK, so what is / will be the speed of the ladder junction connecting Down Slow to Down Rochdale?

 

[jfollows]

OK, so what is / will be the speed of the ladder junction connecting Down Slow to Down Rochdale?

25mph today according to the Sectional Appendix

 

[WAO]

Aren't they paired by use, as they always were? I thought the northern pair are the down and up fast, the southern pair the down and up slow, with the fasts at Miles Platting continuing as the Rochdale lines and the slow as the Stalybridge lines.

Yes of course, I used the wrong word, thanks for the correction and apologies!

I suppose the lines are all named for Rochdale from L&Y days.

WAO

 

[Senex]

Yes of course, I used the wrong word, thanks for the correction and apologies!

I suppose the lines are all named for Rochdale from L&Y days.

WAO

I think the ELR takes us even further back into history : MVN = Manchester Victoria and Normanton, or the whole length of the Manchester & Leeds Railway (to be purist I suppose we might have hoped for MON as Manchester Oldham Road and Normanton).

 

[CW2]

So assuming no change to the speed of the ladder, only trains going Down Slow to Down Rochdale will be approach controlled, but if they are routinely routed onto the Down Fast immediately on departure from Victoria that shouldn't be an issue. Trains going Down Slow to Down Stalybridge will not be approach controlled, so all is good.

 

[jfollows]

So assuming no change to the speed of the ladder, only trains going Down Slow to Down Rochdale will be approach controlled, but if they are routinely routed onto the Down Fast immediately on departure from Victoria that shouldn't be an issue. Trains going Down Slow to Down Stalybridge will not be approach controlled, so all is good.

Trains going Down Slow to Down Ashton will not be approach controlled, so all is good. - to be pedantic.

EDIT - Trains going Down Rochdale Slow to Down Ashton will not be approach controlled, so all is good. - to be exceptionally pedantic!

 

[WAO]

A pity the M&LR (later L&YR) didn't persevere with its direct link from Oldham Rd to Liverpool Road (L&MR) - a single central station for the city.

Normanton (stress on the first syllable in Yorkshire) still has one island platform left from its original greatness.The handsome early Victorian buildings have now gone (improvements!), where Midland passengers enjoyed a dining stop on the way North.

The Calder Valley route always seemed potentially the better route, longer and mostly only 2-track but well aligned and with easy gradients.

Back on topic

WAO

 

[SuperNova]

Please forgive my ignorance but is Leeds to York definitely going to be electrified or not? I get the impression it is not. I seem to remember there were plans for a reversing siding at Micklefield once.

That's up to the Treasury and the DfT. I suspect it will.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Please forgive my ignorance but is Leeds to York definitely going to be electrified or not? I get the impression it is not. I seem to remember there were plans for a reversing siding at Micklefield once.

Up to Church Fenton is getting done - so it is frustrating but bit by bit it is happening.

 

[Chris125]

Another online meeting, this time courtesy of IET Yorkshire - the opening remarks certainly suggest renewed enthusiasm, if affordable, for wiring Manchester to York and Selby.

Tony, James, Aaron, Paul and Steve share some of the work that has been going on with the transpennine route upgrade.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Just Leeds Selby would be a huge win. Obviously I want more but that would be good.

 

[InOban]

Going back to the original PWI presentation (thanks for posting) I noticed that, except for one reference to the extent of the existing OHLE, all the measurements, eg the radius of the new curve, were given in metric. Does this mean that the new NR dataset is entirely metric?

 

[Pieman]

Just a head ups, for those who are interested. This weekend I'm planning on mapping the Transpennine Route Upgrade with icons which people can click on to view required interventions and what other info I can find on the project. I'll be sure to share the link once I'm done.

EDIT: Work has now started and can be found on the link below.
https://railmap.azurewebsites.net/Public/TRU

An excellent tool which I will definitely use over the coming years. One very minor criticism is the colours for proposed and construction are very close could they be altered for easier recognition?

 

[Purple Orange]

Another online meeting, this time courtesy of IET Yorkshire - the opening remarks certainly suggest renewed enthusiasm, if affordable, for wiring Manchester to York and Selby.

It’s interesting that they depicted a 7-car Nova 1.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

1 hour 11 minutes in states Man Vic to Stalybridge is at a very advanced stage and Church Fenton is boots on the ground stage so definitely progressing.

 

[Purple Orange]

1 hour 11 minutes in states Man Vic to Stalybridge is at a very advanced stage and Church Fenton is boots on the ground stage so definitely progressing.

Chipping away nicely then. There is a lot to unpack in that presentation, but did it give an indication of possible completion of all the work due to take place between Huddersfield and Leeds? (I may have missed it).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Chipping away nicely then. There is a lot to unpack in that presentation, but did it give an indication of possible completion of all the work due to take place between Huddersfield and Leeds? (I may have missed it).

Discussed but I did not get a firm date from my hearing.

 

[Purple Orange]

Discussed but I did not get a firm date from my hearing.

It’s frustrating. I assume there must surely be a target completion date. Is 2025 too soon? Or is 2030 too late? That gives us an indication as to when full electrification could be delivered, which can then feed in to the proposed NPR junction south of Piccadilly. (I’m increasingly of the belief that NPR between Leeds & Manchester will be no more than full electrification of the existing line, with 4-tracking where possible. I.e. the additional 2-tracks will receive full spin treatment from Westminster and be lauded as the new line between Manchester & Leeds).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It’s frustrating. I assume there must surely be a target completion date. Is 2025 too soon? Or is 2030 too late? That gives us an indication as to when full electrification could be delivered, which can then feed in to the proposed NPR junction south of Piccadilly. (I’m increasingly of the belief that NPR between Leeds & Manchester will be no more than full electrification of the existing line, with 4-tracking where possible. I.e. the additional 2-tracks will receive full spin treatment from Westminster and be lauded as the new line between Manchester & Leeds).

Without getting too OT - the sop would be to electrify and upgrade Hope Valley route too. We will see. Back on topic, the chiselling away at TPU I sort of understand. The DfT and Treasury were really p----d off at the cost overruns on other projects. By doing it this way they get each bit thoroughly costed and done and if any time there is a huge cost overrun they cut back or stop. Doing the upgrade in meaningful chunks makes sense. I suspect that Leeds Selby may get announced in the next few months which would be another nice chunk.

 

[Efini92]

There was a report out in about 98/99 that proposed reopening the loop from Stalybridge to diggle jn then 4 tracking from there into Huddersfield. I hope network could at least look into the feasibility of that. It would certainly allow for the reintroduction of the Victoria - Huddersfield stopping service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

There was a report out in about 98/99 that proposed reopening the loop from Stalybridge to diggle jn then 4 tracking from there into Huddersfield. I hope network could at least look into the feasibility of that. It would certainly allow for the reintroduction of the Victoria - Huddersfield stopping service.

Costs would be astronomical relative to the benefits. The stopper still exists to Huddersfield, just to piccadilly instead. NPR should free up more space for stoppers with less express trains on the current TRU route. Huddersfield to Stalybridge can support six trains an hour is say two were stoppers, two stopped only Stalybridge and two ran express all the way through. It just can't support six expresses and a stopper as well.

 

[edwin_m]

There was a report out in about 98/99 that proposed reopening the loop from Stalybridge to diggle jn then 4 tracking from there into Huddersfield. I hope network could at least look into the feasibility of that. It would certainly allow for the reintroduction of the Victoria - Huddersfield stopping service.

Costs would be astronomical relative to the benefits. The stopper still exists to Huddersfield, just to piccadilly instead. NPR should free up more space for stoppers with less express trains on the current TRU route. Huddersfield to Stalybridge can support six trains an hour is say two were stoppers, two stopped only Stalybridge and two ran express all the way through. It just can't support six expresses and a stopper as well.

I walked most of this route as a child in the 1970s and went back a few years ago to do a quick assessment of the potential for re-opening. It's basically a no-hoper, with five large viaducts and numerous smaller structures demolished and housing encroaching in Uppermill.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It’s frustrating. I assume there must surely be a target completion date. Is 2025 too soon? Or is 2030 too late? That gives us an indication as to when full electrification could be delivered, which can then feed in to the proposed NPR junction south of Piccadilly. (I’m increasingly of the belief that NPR between Leeds & Manchester will be no more than full electrification of the existing line, with 4-tracking where possible. I.e. the additional 2-tracks will receive full spin treatment from Westminster and be lauded as the new line between Manchester & Leeds).

The political cycle doesn't help.
NR gets funded in 5-year chunks, and the current one (CP6) is 2019-24.
So you're not going to get any clarity on anything after that until the next round for which the negotiation cycle starts in 2022.
Then there's the much bigger Treasury Spending Review which is supposed to come out before Christmas (it will set DfT budgets).
I'd expect that to be the trigger for things like NPR commitments.
Covid and its impact on finances doesn't help.

 

[YorksLad12]

Costs would be astronomical relative to the benefits. The stopper still exists to Huddersfield, just to piccadilly instead. NPR should free up more space for stoppers with less express trains on the current TRU route. Huddersfield to Stalybridge can support six trains an hour is say two were stoppers, two stopped only Stalybridge and two ran express all the way through. It just can't support six expresses and a stopper as well.

The "solution" here would be to revert the Airport services to Piccadilly, which would free up a path for the stopper to return to Victoria as well as reducing movements through Castlefield. The real solution would be to stop planning services to run on infrastructure that hasn't been built yet (Castlefield plus P15 & 16 at Pic). Adding back the two tracks between Huddersfield and Marsden/Standedge should be possible though.

It’s frustrating. I assume there must surely be a target completion date. Is 2025 too soon? Or is 2030 too late? That gives us an indication as to when full electrification could be delivered, which can then feed in to the proposed NPR junction south of Piccadilly. (I’m increasingly of the belief that NPR between Leeds & Manchester will be no more than full electrification of the existing line, with 4-tracking where possible. I.e. the additional 2-tracks will receive full spin treatment from Westminster and be lauded as the new line between Manchester & Leeds).

Last summer it was mentioned to me that the project would last seven-ish years, so well into CP7. It's a big project, but breaking it up into smaller packages that in of themselves bring some benefits is a good thing, I think.

 

[SuperNova]

The "solution" here would be to revert the Airport services to Piccadilly, which would free up a path for the stopper to return to Victoria as well as reducing movements through Castlefield. The real solution would be to stop planning services to run on infrastructure that hasn't been built yet (Castlefield plus P15 & 16 at Pic). Adding back the two tracks between Huddersfield and Marsden/Standedge should be possible though.



Last summer it was mentioned to me that the project would last seven-ish years, so well into CP7. It's a big project, but breaking it up into smaller packages that in of themselves bring some benefits is a good thing, I think.

Firstly, any reinstatement of tracks west of Huddersfield would lead to lower line speeds. Given one of the targets of TRU is Manchester - York in just over an hour, this would hinder that.

Secondly, some will say breaking TRU as a project up is solely for cost management. However, it's such a complicated project that doing it in manageable chunk will also help any disruption for people travelling on the route. In a strange way, now is the time to go hell for leather as pax. numbers are about a third they usually are and most likely won't recover until the end of the decade. Like you say, it's a good thing.

 

[Revaulx]

Firstly, any reinstatement of tracks west of Huddersfield would lead to lower line speeds. Given one of the targets of TRU is Manchester - York in just over an hour, this would hinder that.

Any reinstatement? Sure, re quadrupling all along the extant formation (Hudds-Diggle Jn) would lead to lower line speeds as there’s been a fair bit of slewing east of Marsden. I’m also not convinced it would achieve much, as you’d still be stuck with a two track section westwards to Stalybridge.

Joining the existing (and not terribly useful) loops at Marsden and Diggle into one lengthy bi-directional third track could surely be achieved without impinging on line speeds, but would provide meaningful extra capacity.