Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates, CP6

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
5,849
Location
Peterborough
The Coal Authority Maps show mining under Ashton Moss North Junction in the 1950s. There was mining in the Philips Park area until 1968 when Bradford Colliery closed. Mining did for the Hollinwood Branch Canal near Droylesden Station in 1935 and the Denton- Ashton Moss line still shows unusual undulations near to the site of Ashton Moss (the Snipe) Colliery- the B&M store on the retail park is built over one of the shafts which was (is) over 3000ft deep:D
:D
Oh wow - no wonder the piles are as deep as they are!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

InOban

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2017
Messages
3,709
AIUI the problem isn't with the more recent mines which are on the Coal Industry maps, it's with the old shallow Bell pits from the Middle Ages .
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
6,037
Location
Leeds
More pictures posted by Freel07 on Skyscrapercity:


It really seems to be coming along well at last. Also lots of views of the duct containing the 25kV extension lead.
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
3,487
Location
Surrey
Pictures from LinkedIn of piles (some 10m!) being installed at Ashton Moss.
10m! pinning a 100m tall offshore wind farm to the seabed only use 30m piles
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
5,849
Location
Peterborough
10m! pinning a 100m tall offshore wind farm to the seabed only use 30m piles
I'd imagine the diameters of the turbines are much wider, and don't have old mine working or shallow bell pits to contend with...

More pictures posted by Freel07 on Skyscrapercity:


It really seems to be coming along well at last. Also lots of views of the duct containing the 25kV extension lead.
Based on Freel07's pictures, I've deduced a little list of structures in order, starting from west of O/B 12 (Bow Brow - referred to by Freel07 as "Gloucester Road") to O/B 16A (Littlemoss Rd).
  • UA TTC MVL/06/15 - masted and boomed
  • DA TTCs MVL/06/16, /17, /18 & /19 - all masted and boomed with DA EW bkts in. 06/16, /18 & /19 have UA EW stovepipes (and bkts), along with DA/UA stovepipes and cantilevers too. 06/19 is also a DEP.
  • O/B 12 (Bow Brow)
  • STC Pair MVL/06/20 & /21 - /20 has cantilever in.
  • STC Pair MVL/06/22 & /23 - DEPs. /22 has cantilever in.
  • STC Pair MVL/06/24 & /25
  • SSA Pair MVL/06/26 & /27 - Tensorexes definitely fitted to /26.
  • UA TTC MVL/07/01 - masted and boomed
  • TCM (Twin Cantilever Mast) Pair MVL/07/02 & /03 - both have EW bkts fitted, with cantilever bkts on /03.
  • SSA Pair MVL/07/04 & /05 - Tensorexes, EW bkt and cantilever fitted to /04.
  • STC Pair MVL/07/06 & /07 - EW & mast bkts in
  • STC Pair MVL/07/08 & /09 - EW & mast bkts in
  • STC Pair MVL/07/10 & /11 - EW & mast bkts in
  • DA TTC MVL/07/12 - DEP. Masted & boomed with DA EW bkt in.
  • O/B 12A (pipe bridge)
  • UA TTC MVL/07/13 - masted and boomed.
  • STC Pair MVL/07/14 & /15 - EW & mast bkts in
  • STC Pair MVL/07/16 & /17 - EW & mast bkts in
  • STC Pair MVL/07/18 & /19 - EW & mast bkts in. 07/19 (assumed) not in yet.
  • F/B 14A (Droylsden Footbridge)
  • STC Pair MVL/07/20 & /21 - DEPs. EW & mast bkts in.
  • DA TTC MVL/07/22 - masted and boomed. UA stovepipe and cantilever in.
  • UA TTC MVL/07/23 - masted and boomed.
  • DA TTC MVL/07/24 - masted and boomed. DA standoff EW bkt in.
  • UA TTC MVL/07/25 - masted and boomed. Will have backtie pile. 2 anchor brackets provided - my guess is that they're either for a half-tension length (i.e. with Tensorex at one end only, with the other end fixed), or an Earth Wire Anchor before the two bridges below and a tie wire anchor for the midpoint in the wire run.
  • SSA (DA) MVL/07/26 - 2 anchor brackets provided - my guess is that they're either for a half-tension length (i.e. with Tensorex at one end only, with the other end fixed), or an Earth Wire Anchor before the two bridges below along with a tie wire anchor for the midpoint in the wire run.
  • O/B 16 (Lumb Lane)
  • UA TTC MVL/07/27 - masted & boomed.
  • UA TTC MVL/07/28 - masted & boomed.
  • O/B 16A (Littlemoss Road) - will have bridge arms fixed. Structures MVL/07/29 to MVL/07/32 are likely to be those bridge arms.
  • UA TTC MVL/07/33 - masted & boomed. EW Anchor bracket in. Boom doesn't look long enough to support a potential DA EW stovepipe so I assume the DA EW won't return until the next overlap.
 
Last edited:

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
3,487
Location
Surrey
I'd imagine the diameters of the turbines are much wider, and don't have old mine working or shallow bell pits to contend with...
No just a very wet seabed.

Anyhow with the background and the calculations we will never know but what we do know is on GWR is foundation design was one of the key short comings in the design process. I also see these days that engineering judgement isn't prevalent anymore and that with all the sign offs required there is the potential for engineers to add their own safety factor on i suspect.
 

LDECRexile

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2014
Messages
2,149
Location
Southport, UK
Wrinkley and I did our approximately monthly Wigan to Stalybridge and back via Manchester Victoria yesterday.

Heartening progress visible, lots of masts marching, bases blossoming and cabling careering along.

Impossible to tell from train windows if there are gaps, but bases now extend well east of Ashton Station.

:D
 

Sonik

Member
Joined
7 Jun 2022
Messages
127
Location
WCML South
Anyhow with the background and the calculations we will never know but what we do know is on GWR is foundation design was one of the key short comings in the design process. I also see these days that engineering judgement isn't prevalent anymore and that with all the sign offs required there is the potential for engineers to add their own safety factor on i suspect.
I think it's just lack of experience due to the 20 year hiatus.

With practice comes the confidence to sail a bit closer to the wind.
 

Revaulx

Member
Joined
17 Sep 2019
Messages
393
Location
Saddleworth
Wrinkley and I did our approximately monthly Wigan to Stalybridge and back via Manchester Victoria yesterday.

Heartening progress visible, lots of masts marching, bases blossoming and cabling careering along.

Impossible to tell from train windows if there are gaps, but bases now extend well east of Ashton Station.

:D
So what’s left aside from completion of the actual wiring? The short tunnel under Penny Meadow and the bridge under Stamford Street a bit to its east? The Mossley Road bridge between the two was done years ago.

Given what they’ve done with the other underline bridges, I’d be surprised if Stamford Street doesn’t get completely rebuilt. Not sure about the tunnel.

It’ll be interesting to see if there are any layout changes at Stalybridge. I reckon there won’t be.
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
5,849
Location
Peterborough
So what’s left aside from completion of the actual wiring? The short tunnel under Penny Meadow and the bridge under Stamford Street a bit to its east? The Mossley Road bridge between the two was done years ago.

Given what they’ve done with the other underline bridges, I’d be surprised if Stamford Street doesn’t get completely rebuilt. Not sure about the tunnel.

It’ll be interesting to see if there are any layout changes at Stalybridge. I reckon there won’t be.
That seems to be it for bridges and tunnels as far as Staly. Stamford St is a big one to do, and it has a lot of utilities to divert/stop-up while works are done - I suspect planning to undertake the work is going on behind the scenes.
 

Buspilot

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
119
So what’s left aside from completion of the actual wiring? The short tunnel under Penny Meadow and the bridge under Stamford Street a bit to its east?

As I recall the bridge at Stamford Street East should have been dealt with in June 2021.
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
6,037
Location
Leeds
As I recall the bridge at Stamford Street East should have been dealt with in June 2021.
If I remember correctly the major closure last summer was in July-August. Most lists of the bridges to be worked on during the closure only mentioned bridges in the Victoria to Miles Platting area. One item, possibly in RAIL magazine, claimed that work would also be done on the Stamford Street East bridge, but I don't think I have ever seen anything (e.g. press releases or posts on here) to confirm that any work actually happened there.

Edit: 15 more photos from Freel07 on SSC:


In the last picture but one and the last but two (P1100445 and P1100449) there seems to be an STC and a TTC almost opposite each other on double-track plain line. It's not clear why both would be needed.
 
Last edited:

sportzbar

Member
Joined
11 May 2014
Messages
108
If I remember correctly the major closure last summer was in July-August. Most lists of the bridges to be worked on during the closure only mentioned bridges in the Victoria to Miles Platting area. One item, possibly in RAIL magazine, claimed that work would also be done on the Stamford Street East bridge, but I don't think I have ever seen anything (e.g. press releases or posts on here) to confirm that any work actually happened there.
I used to live not far from Stamford St East bridge, beside the railway on Mossley Road and Network Rail would send periodic letters through regarding work happening nearby. One of them did state that work needed to be done on the bridge that would include road closures and diversions but no date had yet been agreed with Tameside council as to when this would happen. This was around 12 months ago. I moved I August last year so unfortunately don't get any "Dear Railway Neighbour" letters anymore....
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
5,849
Location
Peterborough

Looks like movement on the Huddersfield to Leeds section
Hope that's ground movement...and not the "wrong" ground movement!

Looks like Lundy Projects (who are currently on W1) are being supplanted on the Hudds route. In fairness, I'm hardly surprised - Van Elle are the biggest (and one of the best) piling contractors in the industry. They've been on OLE projects on pretty much every route with OLE in the last few years, most notably MMLe.

If I remember correctly the major closure last summer was in July-August. Most lists of the bridges to be worked on during the closure only mentioned bridges in the Victoria to Miles Platting area. One item, possibly in RAIL magazine, claimed that work would also be done on the Stamford Street East bridge, but I don't think I have ever seen anything (e.g. press releases or posts on here) to confirm that any work actually happened there.

Edit: 15 more photos from Freel07 on SSC:


In the last picture but one and the last but two (P1100445 and P1100449) there seems to be an STC and a TTC almost opposite each other on double-track plain line. It's not clear why both would be needed.
In those two pictures mentioned, I can see two brackets on each of the masts; on MVL/07/25, the TTC, and on MVL/07/26, the SSA.
My guess is that both are anchoring the earth wires on both sides with one bracket, and the tie wires for the mid-point anchors on the other. The preceding structure, DA TTC MVL/07/24 has no such brackets, but in image P1100450, I can see that the structure behind that (i.e. UA TTC no. MVL/07/23) has an anchor bracket on it too, almost certainly for the UA wire run's tie wire.

As such, I think MVL/07/22, behind that, despite being 2 spans away from the structure where the mid-point is, will hold the tie wire for the DA wire run, along with MVL/07/26. I don't know why there's no portal here, but I imagine land take, signal sighting and ground conditions may all have played a part.
 
Last edited:

quantinghome

Established Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
2,101
10m! pinning a 100m tall offshore wind farm to the seabed only use 30m piles
No just a very wet seabed.

Anyhow with the background and the calculations we will never know but what we do know is on GWR is foundation design was one of the key short comings in the design process. I also see these days that engineering judgement isn't prevalent anymore and that with all the sign offs required there is the potential for engineers to add their own safety factor on i suspect.

Very difficult to make that comparison given the different variables involved.

The 'ground' conditions of the seabed could well be significantly better than those on land in this case - you don't tend to get peat bogs on the seabed.

The piles used for offshore wind are absolutely massive - 7m diameter or more, compared to the standard 610mm diameter pile used on rail electrification.

And lateral pile capacity increases with the cube of the embedded depth, so going from a 10m pile to 30m will be about 30 times the capacity. Then the greater diameter will increase this by a further factor of 10.

One thing the two designs do have in common is that a considerable amount of research has now gone into the design to make them efficient. For offshore wind piles, a joint academic/industry project (PISA) worked to produce a new design method which allowed major savings on the pile design. Likewise, in the aftermath of the failures on GW, full scale trials were undertaken (University of Southampton) which allowed various technical design issues to be clarified and efficiencies to be made.
 

Buspilot

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
119
From Northern's Journey Check website:
Between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge


Planned engineering work will take place between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, from 00:10, Tuesday 28 June 2022 to 06:20, Friday 01 July 2022.
Some services will be replaced by buses throughout.
From Tuesday 28th June until Friday 1st July, the 06:30 Stalybridge to Wigan North Western service will start from Manchester Victoria.
A replacement BUS will be provided between Stalybridge to Manchester Victoria. The BUS will depart Stalybridge at 06:30 calling at Ashton under Lyne (06:37) and Manchester Victoria (06:57).
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
6,037
Location
Leeds
The Order under the Transport and Works Act for the Huddersfield to Westtown scheme has been made.


First mentioned by Snow1964 in the Marsden Spur thread.

Incidentally the Northumberland TWAO has also been made.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
17,063
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Phew. What a complex project. NR will be pleased after all the planning work.
Could the project now be deemed "shovel ready"?
There seem to be a large number of planning conditions before work, including preparatory work, can start.
Presumably the funding is in place, as part of the £96 billion Integrated Rail Plan.
I note the project is part of the "Levelling Up" agenda.
 

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
6,660
Location
Dalton GA USA & Preston Lancs
The Order under the Transport and Works Act for the Huddersfield to Westtown scheme has been made.


First mentioned by Snow1964 in the Marsden Spur thread.

Incidentally the Northumberland TWAO has also been made.
Thanks for that snowball. I was just about to copy and paste myself.

Good news. I have not read all the waffle yet. Will do so later.
 

Nottingham59

Member
Joined
10 Dec 2019
Messages
760
Location
Nottingham
The Order under the Transport and Works Act for the Huddersfield to Westtown scheme has been made.
I know it will be in the documentation somewhere, but what will the track layout be for the 4-track sections? (e.g fasts in the middle; paired slows and fasts)

EDIT: And how will those be squeezed down into the three-track sections between Huddersfield and Marsden?
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
14,723
Location
Another planet...
Thank you. That screws up my crayoning efforts in the HS2 Marsden Spur thread lol. Oh well...
Just means you need to factor in a flyover or dive-under somewhere between Marsden and Huddersfield... easy-peasy! ;)

In some ways it would be better on the Deighton side of Huddersfield to allow through-running to and from the Sheffield line, but (a) that ship has sailed, and (b) as much as it would be useful for me, it isn't a sensible objective.
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
3,487
Location
Surrey
Phew. What a complex project. NR will be pleased after all the planning work.
Could the project now be deemed "shovel ready"?
There seem to be a large number of planning conditions before work, including preparatory work, can start.
Presumably the funding is in place, as part of the £96 billion Integrated Rail Plan.
I note the project is part of the "Levelling Up" agenda.
I would have thought so but IRP references that individual projects still need to move through the various phases of the Rail National Enhancement Pipeline document. This hasn't been updated for nearly three years but a lot of political capital invested in TPU so probably just waiting the right moment for BoJo to did a hole somewhere and say he's levelling up the North.
 

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
6,660
Location
Dalton GA USA & Preston Lancs
Phew. What a complex project. NR will be pleased after all the planning work.
Could the project now be deemed "shovel ready"?
There seem to be a large number of planning conditions before work, including preparatory work, can start.
I think you have answered your own question to some degree.

However, this means (IMHO) there is in effect an Enhancements pipeline. There is still plenty to do around Stalybridge where there are already boots on the ground and of course likewise in the Colton Junction area. So, when these are complete they can move onto this bit. So I am encouraged.
 
Last edited:

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
6,037
Location
Leeds
Could the project now be deemed "shovel ready"?
There seem to be a large number of planning conditions before work, including preparatory work, can start.
I think they have a schedule of possessions and blockades already pencilled in. If the approval had come very late it would have screwed them up, but coming early as it has may not be as much benefit as one might hope.

I hope we'll get to hear of some other sections before much longer, but I have no knowledge to base that on.
 

Nicholas Lewis

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
3,487
Location
Surrey
I think you have answered your own question to some degree.

However, this means (IMHO) there is in effect an Enhancements pipeline. There is still plenty to do around Stalybridge where there are already boots on the ground and of course likewise in the Colton Junction area. So, when these are complete they can move onto this bit. So I am encouraged.
This is likely to be the longest running infrastructure thread on this forum by the time this project gets finished.
 

Top