Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[quantinghome]

I don't believe 1. to be the case, as there are no significant SP, MU or HST speeds through the core at all, and it's only at the extremities of the line where the 185s are subject to speed restrictions. Surely if the ground conditions were particularly poor there would be significant restrictions for these heavy units? One of the reasons they can have so much power and weight (for improved tractive effort) is that the route they were designed for didn't require them to meet the weight requirements for differential speeds.

The ground around Mirfield probably isn't the easiest to work with when doing the big work for the upgrade (I heard the water table is quite high round there) but I don't think the existing formation has any major issues. It even manages to avoid all (or most) of the old mine workings that the West Riding is littered with.

I was thinking about Selby-Hull.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was thinking about Selby-Hull.

Ah, that makes sense- apologies. The Hull route was chosen to get mostly 170s once the 185 order was cut back to 51 units because of the weight restrictions (and existence of differential speeds). Though it's a good while since the 170s went and the 185s have coped okay.

Hull has ended up the "ginger stepchild" of TPE again, so perhaps the Hull city region/East Riding/whatever their semi-devolved authority gets called can make a case for getting a branch of NPR?

 

[tpjm]

Where will this call (if anywhere) between Huddersfield and Wakefield?

As planned for the May ‘20 TT before COVID-19 popped up, it was non-stop HUD to WKK. This is because it has a Redcar Central service right behind it at HUD so there wouldn’t be time to stop at Deighton or Mirfield, the Redcar is also followed by the Leeds stopper so there wouldn’t be massive gain by stopping at those stations.

 

[Iskra]

As planned for the May ‘20 TT before COVID-19 popped up, it was non-stop HUD to WKK. This is because it has a Redcar Central service right behind it at HUD so there wouldn’t be time to stop at Deighton or Mirfield, the Redcar is also followed by the Leeds stopper so there wouldn’t be massive gain by stopping at those stations.

That makes some sense. Sad for Mirfield but better for through Wakefield-Manchester/Huddersfield passengers.

 

[Mollman]

I can see Micklefield to Hull being wired to stop unnecessary diesels running under the wires on the core Transpennine network. At some stage,

The original (for this time period) electrification plan for TransPennine was for the wires to only reach Selby which would be served by the 6th TPE service an hour giving a half hourly Pic - Selby service. Hull Trains offered to pay for / contribute towards Selby - Hull electrification to allow it to buy new electric trains. However this proposal was rejected and bi-modes bought instead which might also kill off any chance of the line beyond Selby being electrified for a while despite the fact that you could run Hull - York with EMUs. It now appears that Micclefield - Selby has dropped off the latest electrification plan too.

 

[AndyHudds]

Where will this call (if anywhere) between Huddersfield and Wakefield?

That could be an excellent service for Wakefield to gain. Direct Manchester trains could really help both Wakefield as a town and Kirkgate station.

I would imagine it would be all stations from Manchester to Wakefield so Stalybridge, Moseley, Greenfield, Marsden, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield, Deighton, Mirfield and Wakefield. Be interesting to see what the journey time will be.

Edit: Scrap that, what he just said above.

 

[swissrailpassion]

Ah, that makes sense- apologies. The Hull route was chosen to get mostly 170s once the 185 order was cut back to 51 units because of the weight restrictions (and existence of differential speeds). Though it's a good while since the 170s went and the 185s have coped okay.

Hull has ended up the "ginger stepchild" of TPE again, so perhaps the Hull city region/East Riding/whatever their semi-devolved authority gets called can make a case for getting a branch of NPR?

I think the speed between Hull and Selby is to be 90mph where possible for 185s etc. Work is in progress or almost finished, others may know more.

 

[deltic08]

Rather easier with single track.

Twice the installation agreed but not more difficult using overhead bar on two tracks on Selby swing bridge.

 

[deltic08]

I think the speed between Hull and Selby is to be 90mph where possible for 185s etc. Work is in progress or almost finished, others may know more.

Most is 85/90mph anyway. Only the semaphore signalled section between Brough and Gilberdyke was 75 or below, but considering Brough-Selby is the longest straight line in the UK, it should be 100mph at least when it is now used regularly by 100/125mph trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

Twice the installation agreed but not more difficult using overhead bar on two tracks on Selby swing bridge.

It’s about how you swing it

 

[Meerkat]

Most is 85/90mph anyway. Only the semaphore signalled section between Brough and Gilberdyke was 75 or below, but considering Brough-Selby is the longest straight line in the UK, it should be 100mph at least when it is now used regularly by 100/125mph trains.

Would it I be right in thinking it is the ground conditions and level crossings that are the problem?

 

[louis97]

Most is 85/90mph anyway. Only the semaphore signalled section between Brough and Gilberdyke was 75 or below, but considering Brough-Selby is the longest straight line in the UK, it should be 100mph at least when it is now used regularly by 100/125mph trains.

Ignoring any Sprinter differential line speeds (which 185s cannot do), most of the line East of Selby is 75mph or less. There is the odd sections of up to 90, but only short sections Selby to Wressle and Eastrington to Gilberdyke, there is also a longer section between Broomfleet and Brough. Sprinter differentials exist for a fair amount of the line East of Selby, up to 90mph in a good chunk of the 75mph sections. When the line was re-signalled the new signals have been spaced for 100mph between Gilberdyke and Hessle.

 

[37424]

I think talk of Hull electrification is a bit fanciful at the moment and progress on the main core section between Manchester and York should be the main aim at present. Now the proposed electrification and capacity upgrade between Huddersfield and Leeds seems hugely expensive to me and the amount of disruption that it cause is going to be major as well. The amount infrastructure work between Huddersfield and Ravensthorpe is pretty major and no doubt a significant part of the high cost, one wonders if something a bit cheaper aught to be considered even if it delivers less capacity improvement. Now NPR might well be a long way off if it even happens but it does strike me that we really need a decision on NPR one way or another and then design capacity of the existing route accordingly.

 

[deltic08]

It’s about how you swing it

Clockwise or anti-clockwise?

 

[deltic08]

Would it I be right in thinking it is the ground conditions and level crossings that are the problem?

No idea I am afraid. It is not much above sea level so the water table must be fairly high.

 

[59CosG95]

Clockwise or anti-clockwise?

Not just that, but also whether it swings in the horizontal or vertical plane. Pictures on the internet (such as this one below from Wikipedia, © Alan Murray-Rust) show that it's in the horizontal plane.


What's also useful to see is that the swinging section is set on the bank of the river, rather than in the middle (although I don't know of any examples where a swing bridge rotates in the centre of the river!), so any Rigid Overhead Conductor Bar (ROCB) design would have to take the direction the bridge swings (from open to closed) into account. I suspect that, as the pivot is on the northern bank, swinging from closed to open in a clockwise direction, the ROCB on the Down line would have to be longer on the fixed section of bridge (and shorter on the moving section) than the ROCB on the Up line, to prevent any accidental clashing of conductors. This would need to be reversed on the northern embankment/approach to the bridge, so that the ROCBs on both lines of the bridge are equal in length, but longitudinally staggered (i.e. start and finish in different places).

That's before you even consider the process to immunise the bridge against stray currents; it might have some immunisation already (as it's electrically driven), but the extent of this is unknown to the general public.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not just that, but also whether it swings in the horizontal or vertical plane. Pictures on the internet (such as this one below from Wikipedia, © Alan Murray-Rust) show that it's in the horizontal plane.
View attachment 77009

What's also useful to see is that the swinging section is set on the bank of the river, rather than in the middle (although I don't know of any examples where a swing bridge rotates in the centre of the river!), so any Rigid Overhead Conductor Bar (ROCB) design would have to take the direction the bridge swings (from open to closed) into account. I suspect that, as the pivot is on the northern bank, swinging from closed to open in a clockwise direction, the ROCB on the Down line would have to be longer on the fixed section of bridge (and shorter on the moving section) than the ROCB on the Up line, to prevent any accidental clashing of conductors. This would need to be reversed on the northern embankment/approach to the bridge, so that the ROCBs on both lines of the bridge are equal in length, but longitudinally staggered (i.e. start and finish in different places).

That's before you even consider the process to immunise the bridge against stray currents; it might have some immunisation already (as it's electrically driven), but the extent of this is unknown to the general public.

Most swing bridges have a ‘lift’ function first to get them off supporting blocks thatbtake the load under traffic, before then being swung. It’s only a couple of centimetres, but nevertheless it’s still movement in two planes.

 

[59CosG95]

Most swing bridges have a ‘lift’ function first to get them off supporting blocks thatbtake the load under traffic, before then being swung. It’s only a couple of centimetres, but nevertheless it’s still movement in two planes.

Ah yes, that's something I hadn't considered! Thanks for that extra tidbit, @Bald Rick.

 

[Ploughman]

I think Goole Swing bridge is centre of river pivoting.

I recall working on the bridge one night and it had to open while we were working on the track.
Mid February in a gale with the wind in line with the bridge, no shelter.

 

[mwmbwls]

I think Goole Swing bridge is centre of river pivoting.

I recall working on the bridge one night and it had to open while we were working on the track.
Mid February in a gale with the wind in line with the bridge, no shelter.

How right you are.

Does the bridge belong to Network Rail or the River Authority?

 

[Killingworth]

How right you are.

Does the bridge belong to Network Rail or the River Authority?

One of Network Rail's many historic liabilities! Those who complain about rail fares don't understand how much infrastructure has to be maintained.

 

[Meerkat]

One of Network Rail's many historic liabilities! Those who complain about rail fares don't understand how much infrastructure has to be maintained.

And listed so even if they could afford a modern replacement they would still have to maintain the old one!

 

[Killingworth]

And listed so even if they could afford a modern replacement they would still have to maintain the old one!

There's a lot to maintain in the old wooden staging and girders forming the viaduct, Grade II listed, see; Historic England

That would be bad enough, but every now and then ships run into it. Most recently it suffered damage n 1973 (closed for 9 months), 1976 and 1988. A 6 week closure permitted a £6 milion restoration and modernisation to take place in 2009-10. It needs a lot of tickets to be sold to cover costs like that - which they don't!

 

[deltic08]

There's a lot to maintain in the old wooden staging and girders forming the viaduct, Grade II listed, see; Historic England

That would be bad enough, but every now and then ships run into it. Most recently it suffered damage n 1973 (closed for 9 months), 1976 and 1988. A 6 week closure permitted a £6 milion restoration and modernisation to take place in 2009-10. It needs a lot of tickets to be sold to cover costs like that - which they don't!

It would still have to be maintained if the line closed. If shipping damages the bridge them they pay for repair through Lloyds.

 

[DimTim]

Is the bridge manned daily or only when it’s know river traffic will require its operation? Also because of tides overnight?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the bridge manned daily or only when it’s know river traffic will require its operation? Also because of tides overnight?

I don’t know about Google, but all the swing bridge does in Anglia are ‘personned’ 24/7. River traffic can come at any time.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Does anybody know whats happened to the proposed Micklefield Turnback ?

I had a brief search and found nothing definite.

 

[Mordac]

I don’t know about Google, but all the swing bridge does in Anglia are ‘personned’ 24/7. River traffic can come at any time.

That's got to be a contender for most boring job in the world.

 

[Meerkat]

That's got to be a contender for most boring job in the world.

There are worse places to be bored, and I bet the pay is pretty good for a boring job!
In Summer it would rarely be boring as there is endless entertainment from clueless scratters trying to steer boats!

 

[Bald Rick]

That's got to be a contender for most boring job in the world.

Oh I don’t know; Reedham Swing Bridge is absolutely wonderful in spring / summer, even if you don’t have to swing it.