Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No that's not common sense for Huddersfield I'm afraid. Oldham to Huddersfield, what do you mean? Without have to trawl back through the whole thread?

Apologies if I have missed this in postings further up the thread, but where exactly in Oldham will a new heavy-rail station be built and what route will be taken to access Oldham?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Neither NR nor TfN who produced that map have the final say in the matter. Funding relies on central government, and in the recent past they've cancelled schemes far closer to delivery than this one (electrification north of Market Harborough and west of Cardiff). With effectively a new (unelected) government, all bets are probably off.

Did they really cancel those schemes AFTER they had gone out to public consultation in the way that is happening for Huddersfield-Dewsbury?

Despite recent history, I would be very surprised if this scheme got cancelled: The political sensitivities would be huge due to the widespread perception of the North missing out on transport improvements, there are a few marginal constituencies in the area, and it would go against Boris's apparent instinct in favour of infrastructure projects. And I doubt you could sensibly justify cancellation by claiming future NPR work will obsolete this scheme because any new NPR Leeds-Manchester line is going to be so far in the future - what with there currently being no plans even for an approximate route let alone anything more advanced.

 

[jonesy3001]

Is the stalybridge to manchester section still being electrified or is that it to just outside miles platting?
Also cannot see the oldham to huddersfield line being built as there is no where to build a line since metrolink shut the werneth - mumps station section due to building the line through the town and shutting down the tunnels and i cannot see them rebuilding the old line through park bridge to ashton as they need to rebuild the viaduct at park bridge and bridges in between the 2 towns.

 

[AndyHudds]

Apologies if I have missed this in postings further up the thread, but where exactly in Oldham will a new heavy-rail station be built and what route will be taken to access Oldham?

I was as surprised as you to read of Oldham being put on the rail map and even more surprised linking it up to the trans Pennine route through Huddersfield!!! It's certainly not what we need.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I cannot see the oldham to huddersfield line being built as there is no where to build a line since metrolink shut the werneth - mumps station section due to building the line through the town and shutting down the tunnels and i cannot see them rebuilding the old line through park bridge to ashton as they need to rebuild the viaduct at park bridge and bridges in between the 2 towns.

After the line of the Oldham, Ashton and Guide Bridge Railway, as discussed above, is there still any undeveloped land in area between the former Oldham Clegg Street station and the line between Glodwick and the former heavy rail station at Oldham Mumps, which would allow the line of the former Delph Donkey as far as Greenfield to be taken?

 

[jonesy3001]

After the line of the Oldham, Ashton and Guide Bridge Railway, as discussed above, is there still any undeveloped land in area between the former Oldham Clegg Street station and the line between Glodwick and the former heavy rail station at Oldham Mumps, which would allow the line of the former Delph Donkey as far as Greenfield to be taken?

in oldham you have sainsburys, oldham way and the alexandra retail park built on the line and in ashton there's is a industrial estate after the tunnel before going into ashton.
I used to walk down the line with my dog.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

in oldham you have sainsburys, oldham way and the alexandra retail park built on the line and in ashton there's is a industrial estate after the tunnel before going into ashton.
I used to walk down the line with my dog.

Your localised knowledge is gratefully noted.

 

[edwin_m]

After the line of the Oldham, Ashton and Guide Bridge Railway, as discussed above, is there still any undeveloped land in area between the former Oldham Clegg Street station and the line between Glodwick and the former heavy rail station at Oldham Mumps, which would allow the line of the former Delph Donkey as far as Greenfield to be taken?

in oldham you have sainsburys, oldham way and the alexandra retail park built on the line and in ashton there's is a industrial estate after the tunnel before going into ashton.
I used to walk down the line with my dog.

And from the former Oldham Glodwick Road towards Grotton most of the cuttings are landfilled (with methane gas vents - nasty stuff as the Bluebell found out with their East Grinstead extension). Between Lydgate Tunnel and Greenfield there is a housing estate on the trackbed. In any case neither this nor the Ashton alignment would be suitable for (fairly) high speed Manchester-Leeds services.

 

[edwin_m]

Did they really cancel those schemes AFTER they had gone out to public consultation in the way that is happening for Huddersfield-Dewsbury?

Electrification works are almost entirely within the railway boundary so there may have been little or no consultation needed and probably no TWAO either. However physical work was started on at least the MML north of Kettering, such as the Braybrooke feeder and some bridge works.

The government is reviewing HS2. It has gone through multiple consultations and a Hybrid Bill, supported overwhelmingly by MPs, and work has started on the ground at Euston, Curzon Street and elsewhere. It is also overwhelmingly supported by local interests in the north, who believe connectivity to the south is just as important as connectivity within the region. If they are considering cancelling HS2 then cancelling TRU would barely register, especially if they drowned it out by the fanfare of some version of NPR being brought forward.

 

[Glenn1969]

Talk of Oldham should be in Speculative Ideas. It was only mentioned because of uncertainty surrounding the route of NPR which is not going anywhere near Huddersfield because it will be aligned with the Calder Valley route via Bradford

 

[edwin_m]

Talk of Oldham should be in Speculative Ideas. It was only mentioned because of uncertainty surrounding the route of NPR which is not going anywhere near Huddersfield because it will be aligned with the Calder Valley route via Bradford

The shortest (therefore probably quickest and cheapest) line beween two points is a straight line. Drawing one on a map between Manchester and Bradford give some idea of where it might pass through with the possibility of a station. Most of the Calder Valley route is well to the west of that line.

 

[Glenn1969]

AFAIK the only possible stations are Bradford and Rochdale and these are only being talked up by politicians in these areas. There has been no word from TfN about how many stations there will actually be unless I have missed something

 

[Senex]

The shortest (therefore probably quickest and cheapest) line beween two points is a straight line. Drawing one on a map between Manchester and Bradford give some idea of where it might pass through with the possibility of a station. Most of the Calder Valley route is well to the west of that line.

The shortest line between Manchester and Leeds, the economic power-houses either side of the Pennines, goes through Huddersfield. Is there still time to get rid of the idea of this route through Bradford (no doubt with some low speed restriction for curvature) and think of the fastest possible Manchester/Leeds route with the possibility of some trains serving the major proven intermediate centre of Huddersfield?

 

[AndrewE]

The shortest line between Manchester and Leeds, the economic power-houses either side of the Pennines, goes through Huddersfield. Is there still time to get rid of the idea of this route through Bradford (no doubt with some low speed restriction for curvature) and think of the fastest possible Manchester/Leeds route with the possibility of some trains serving the major proven intermediate centre of Huddersfield?

Exactly. Which is why I pointed out that trying to build a fast railway on any of the current alignments is pretty stupid, not to mention the disruption it would cause. Just look how bad it has turned out to be trying to electrify or upgrade the mainly 4-track west coast and GW main lines.
It's interesting to note that those most enthusiastic about HS2 [correctly] point out that trying to upgrade or expand an operational railway is a nightmare - but they can't recognise that the same applies to NPR.
No big freight capacity, double track only west of the Pennines (whichever route you choose,) tunnels which are "difficult" to electrify: why not side-step all these problems and put in a Pennine base tunnel as a start?
Anywhere else in Europe, or if such a scheme meant years of disruption near London, there would be no argument about it. Just look at the money thrown at HS1 - including a brand-new terminus and flyover that were intended to be abandoned within a couple of years!

 

[AndrewE]

Apologies if I have missed this in postings further up the thread, but where exactly in Oldham will a new heavy-rail station be built and what route will be taken to access Oldham?

The same could have been said of Stratford, E London and HS1. But they did it, including an exceptionally difficult bridge over the ECML.
Just because empty land or an old alignment doesn't jump to your eye doesn't mean it can't be done. A supermarket, a road and a retail park are excellent examples of transient low-footprint land-uses that could easily be moved for an important bit of national infrastructure. Someone claimed that Ripon can't be re-connected to the railway network because a small industrial estate is now on the track-bed. Absolute rubbish, of course.
A whole canal was moved to allow the Bingley by-pass to be built...

 

[YorkshireBear]

The shortest line between Manchester and Leeds, the economic power-houses either side of the Pennines, goes through Huddersfield. Is there still time to get rid of the idea of this route through Bradford (no doubt with some low speed restriction for curvature) and think of the fastest possible Manchester/Leeds route with the possibility of some trains serving the major proven intermediate centre of Huddersfield?

I'm not bothered about the speed as such. Yes I want it be a modern fast line, but the penalty via Bradford is for me outweighed by the huge connectivity and economic benefits for that area, likewise with Rochdale. Two areas which are definitely struggling.

 

[deltic08]

The whole thing is a nonsense. Achieving a 3 minute journey time reduction between Leeds and Manchester Victoria plus a couple of extra paths isn't worth the £3billion estimated cost and disruption.

I think you will find it more than 3 minutes. Electrification alone was reducing journey time by up to 10 minutes and now remodelling curves will reduce by 5 more minutes. Did you mean 13 minutes?
£7billion for a new fast line Leeds-Manchester will only reduce journey time by 5 minutes for non-stop trains. With stops at Rochdale and Bradford, it will be no faster than the current route when that project is completed. That is where £7billion would be wasted and how much would have to be in tunnel?
It needs spending on commuter routes into Northern cities, electrification and new trains instead.

 

[AndyHudds]

The shortest line between Manchester and Leeds, the economic power-houses either side of the Pennines, goes through Huddersfield. Is there still time to get rid of the idea of this route through Bradford (no doubt with some low speed restriction for curvature) and think of the fastest possible Manchester/Leeds route with the possibility of some trains serving the major proven intermediate centre of Huddersfield?

I don't see this obsession with it having to go through Bradford, are they hoping it will transform it from the scratty dump it is into some economic powerhouse and a nice place? They should concentrate on upgrading the current transpennine routes to a high standard instead of building a new line, which seems a little unecessary.

 

[CHAPS2034]

Also, Ravensthorpe Heaton lodge was used by the LMS as a trial of speed signalling with 3 position semaphores.

Sorry for the slight diversion back into history, but the Mirfield speed signalling did not use semaphores but were

of the searchlight type, using multiple numbers of heads to achieve the desired combination. A "marker" light was fitted lower down the post; this provided a secondary red light in case of failure of the bulb(s) in the main head.

See here
https://www.signalbox.org/signals/lmsspeed.htm

 

[Halifaxlad]

If the plan went ahead, the alignment of the new route would go via Bradford, so all services using it would go via Bradford. That was always the intention. Whether it will actually be built is a whole other matter, personally I don't think it will.

If built as intended there will also be NPR services on other routes such as Manchester-Sheffield and Sheffield-Leeds. But the point I'm trying to make is that the new infrastructure for NPR trains between Manchester and Leeds won't touch the Huddersfield-Dewsbury section, so design and legal powers for that section can go ahead without much risk that NPR will want to change it later. NPR might lead to it being cancelled completely, but not amended.

The latest Modern Railways is raising the possibility I mentioned earlier, that TP upgrade could be cancelled in favour of bringing the new NPR route forward. If that happened Huddersfield could end up with maybe 2TPH of semi-fasts and 2TPH of stoppers.

All this talk made me think back to the 'High Speed North' report published by the National Infrastructure Commission.

https://www.nic.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/High-Speed-North.pdf

PDF Page 6 { TRANSFORMING RAIL The Commission has identified three immediate priorities for constructing ‘HS3’: a transformed east-west network from Liverpool in the west to Hull and Newcastle in the east. Kick-start HS3: Between Manchester and Leeds, the two largest economies of the north. Phase one should reduce journey times from 49 to 40 minutes and increase capacity by 2022. Phase two could cut times to just 30 minutes. HS3 should make use of key northern sections of HS2 – for example between Leeds and Sheffield where journey times could be reduced to just 30 minutes – upgraded lines, and sections of new track where necessary. }

PDF Page 10 { HS3 is a transformed east-west network from Liverpool in the west to Hull and Newcastle in the east. It should make use of key northern sections of HS2, upgraded existing lines, and sections of new track where necessary to provide capacity, speed and congestion relief. It should provide enhanced connectivity and improved journey times between the major cities of the North and to Manchester Airport, its most important international passenger gateway.

Kick-start HS3 between Leeds to Manchester Network Rail has been commissioned and funded to develop a plan for a major upgrade of the line from Leeds to Manchester via Huddersfield for delivery by 2022. Building on this, proposals should be developed to integrate it with options for a second phase of major route enhancements, which should aim to deliver a 30-minute journey time, together with capacity and frequency improvements. This second phase may not require a completely new line but will require sections of 8 National Infrastructure Commission report | High Speed North 9 National Infrastructure Commission report | High Speed North major new infrastructure, some options for which are outlined in the technical analysis supporting this report. Network Rail, in conjunction with TfN and DfT, should identify and present a full range of options for how this step-change in connectivity may be achieved. }

PDF Page 11 { Recommendation four: The upgrade of the Leeds to Manchester link should form the first phase of HS3 to be developed in detail. It should comprise a long-term programme with the objective of reducing journey times to 30 minutes, alongside substantial capacity and frequency improvements. The first part of this should be a shorter-term plan, to be developed and implemented by TfN and Network Rail by 2022, to cut the journey time between these cities and to onward destinations by roughly 20% from 49 to 40 minutes, enhance capacity and improve service regularity and frequency. }

From this very interesting report:

a) HS3 phase 1 is the Transpennine Route Upgrade!

b) HS3 is a mix of existing, upgraded and new sections of line as opposed to a brand new line from end to end!

 

[edwin_m]

The shortest line between Manchester and Leeds, the economic power-houses either side of the Pennines, goes through Huddersfield. Is there still time to get rid of the idea of this route through Bradford (no doubt with some low speed restriction for curvature) and think of the fastest possible Manchester/Leeds route with the possibility of some trains serving the major proven intermediate centre of Huddersfield?

I've drawn that line too, but since we were optioneering some of the early ideas that may or may not have been taken forward as NPR, it's best for me to say no more.

 

[matacaster]

I've drawn that line too, but since we were optioneering some of the early ideas that may or may not have been taken forward as NPR, it's best for me to say no more.

I agree also!

A fast transpennine route cannot logically stop at both Leeds and bradford and bradford is both not in the correct direction and worse has terrible topography.

I do support the idea of Bradford having a single central station, but not on a fast transpennine route.

 

[LittleAH]

The whole thing is a nonsense. Achieving a 3 minute journey time reduction between Leeds and Manchester Victoria plus a couple of extra paths isn't worth the £3billion estimated cost and disruption.

Why do we have this attitude in this country? Any major works that need doing always end up being scaled back and bodged. What's planned isn't just a 3 minute journey time either, it's much more than that, plus additional capacity, remodelled stations and the ability for express services to overtake slower ones - that's pretty much impossible between Stalybridge and Leeds currently, especially if platform 4 at Huddersfield is occupied.

As long as the disruption is well managed, then in the long run it will be great for the northern economy and people like me who use the trains on a daily basis.

 

[AndyHudds]

Why do we have this attitude in this country? Any major works that need doing always end up being scaled back and bodged. What's planned isn't just a 3 minute journey time either, it's much more than that, plus additional capacity, remodelled stations and the ability for express services to overtake slower ones - that's pretty much impossible between Stalybridge and Leeds currently, especially if platform 4 at Huddersfield is occupied.

As long as the disruption is well managed, then in the long run it will be great for the northern economy and people like me who use the trains on a daily basis.

This country knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

 

[spionkop64]

I don't see this obsession with it having to go through Bradford, are they hoping it will transform it from the scratty dump it is into some economic powerhouse and a nice place? They should concentrate on upgrading the current transpennine routes to a high standard instead of building a new line, which seems a little unecessary.

The 'Scratty dump' has the fourth largest manufacturing base in Britain and is a city of 500,000.

 

[AndrewE]

The 'Scratty dump' has the fourth largest manufacturing base in Britain and is a city of 500,000.

And without any doubt deserves a decent upgraded/electrified service on all routes.
But just not at the expense of jeopardising the success of the hoped-for inter-regional express service that needs to link the most important regional city centres (LIV, Manchester, LDS, YRK, NCL) i.e. without it being compromised by trying to stop at all the other places that need regeneration.

This country knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

Yes. Just get on with building the Pennine base tunnel and sort the old lines out when the through traffic has been taken off them.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The shortest line between Manchester and Leeds, the economic power-houses either side of the Pennines, goes through Huddersfield.

Checking on Google maps, as the crow flies:

• Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds = 36.7 miles
• Manchester-Bradford-Leeds = 38.2 miles

If you're going for a new build line with straight-ish tunnels, I reckon that's just not enough difference in distance to make any significant impact on journey times, or on the choice of route.

Is there still time to get rid of the idea of this route through Bradford (no doubt with some low speed restriction for curvature) and think of the fastest possible Manchester/Leeds route with the possibility of some trains serving the major proven intermediate centre of Huddersfield?

I'm inclined to look at it this way: Bradford and Huddersfield both clearly deserve more/faster services. But it's extremely unlikely that a new NPR route is going to serve both of them: It'll be one or the other (or at a pinch, neither). The proposed upgrades and 4-tracking give Huddersfield its improved services, particularly to Leeds. That implies Bradford would probably get any a new NPR line.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't see this obsession with it having to go through Bradford, are they hoping it will transform it from the scratty dump it is into some economic powerhouse and a nice place? They should concentrate on upgrading the current transpennine routes to a high standard instead of building a new line, which seems a little unecessary.

Part of the "obsession" was making an economic case for creating a new high speed alignment. By including Bradford on the route, there was a stronger case for what would be a very expensive high speed route by helping to further stimulate the economy of what you disparagingly describe as a "scratty dump". You see in order for huge projects like this to get any further than bits of paper passing between departments, they need to demonstrate that not only will they represent the best possible value for money engineering wise, but also that they will bring additional economic benefits. And being the second largest city / town in West Yorkshire, it strengthened the case considerably.

But don't worry, it isn't going to happen. The pressure building on HS2, Brexit and a possible approaching recession will put paid to much of HS2, all of HS3 and possibly even the North Transpennine route upgrade. So you need not fret about a city you don't like getting some investment you clearly don't think it deserves.

 

[Grumpy]

Why do we have this attitude in this country? Any major works that need doing always end up being scaled back and bodged. What's planned isn't just a 3 minute journey time either, it's much more than that, plus additional capacity, remodelled stations and the ability for express services to overtake slower ones - that's pretty much impossible between Stalybridge and Leeds currently, especially if platform 4 at Huddersfield is occupied.

There's nothing wrong with comparing the emerging costs of a project with the firming up benefits and asking if it's still worth doing. If it's not worth doing then spend the money on something better. I cant imagine anyone disagreeing that shortening journey times and improving capacity are laudable, but £3bn for 3 minutes and a couple of extra paths? Spending millions at places like Ravensthorpe to put in a flyover to avoid conflicts with the hourly Wakefield trains which probably don't have much more than a dozen passengers on them. Barmy. Network Rail have let the project spec run away again.
Using a figure of £1m per single track kilometre which the recent RIA report suggested was an achievable cost, then spending £3bn would pay for electrifying (if my maths is ok) over 900 double track miles of electrification. Manchester to York, Hull and Middlesbrough, the Harrogate loop, Liverpool to Doncaster via the CLC and Hope Valley, Windermere Branch, and Carnforth to Barrow total only approx. a third of this. Much better ways of spending.

 

[deltic08]

There's nothing wrong with comparing the emerging costs of a project with the firming up benefits and asking if it's still worth doing. If it's not worth doing then spend the money on something better. I cant imagine anyone disagreeing that shortening journey times and improving capacity are laudable, but £3bn for 3 minutes and a couple of extra paths? Spending millions at places like Ravensthorpe to put in a flyover to avoid conflicts with the hourly Wakefield trains which probably don't have much more than a dozen passengers on them. Barmy. Network Rail have let the project spec run away again.
Using a figure of £1m per single track kilometre which the recent RIA report suggested was an achievable cost, then spending £3bn would pay for electrifying (if my maths is ok) over 900 double track miles of electrification. Manchester to York, Hull and Middlesbrough, the Harrogate loop, Liverpool to Doncaster via the CLC and Hope Valley, Windermere Branch, and Carnforth to Barrow total only approx. a third of this. Much better ways of spending.

I agree entirely with Grumpy on this, but the time saving is much more than 3 minutes and grade separated junctions help freight as well as passenger trains now and in the future.