Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Brissle Girl]

Would not the infill stretch from Colton Jn to Neville Hill Jn be a relatively straightforward further stretch to do?

 

[CW2]

Would not the infill stretch from Colton Jn to Neville Hill Jn be a relatively straightforward further stretch to do?

... and Micklefield to Hambleton too.

 

[HSTEd]

Absolutely, if one looks at the gradient profile, across the Pennines.

A surface route is well within the capabilities of modern EMUs though.
In Germany they build HSLs with 4% sustained gradients.

 

[JonathanH]

A surface route is well within the capabilities of modern EMUs though.
In Germany they build HSLs with 4% sustained gradients.

It might well be but you aren't going to be able to find a surface route which the various communities on the route are going to be happy with, particularly if they want to get it into the Bradford area.

 

[Bald Rick]

You've all missed the announcement of electrification between Colton Junction and Church Fenton, as far as I can tell.

Transpennine Route Upgrade - Network Rail

Major investment to be made to the railway between York and Manchester via Leeds and Huddersfield. The Transpennine Route Upgrade (TRU) is a multi-billion pound, transformative, long-term railway infrastructure programme that will improve connectivity in the North. It will support economic...

www.networkrail.co.uk

Welcome back! Although I don’t think the announcement was missed; it has been talked about on other threads for the last few months.

In Germany they build HSLs with 4% sustained gradients.

Do they? If so, it’s outside the TSI for HSLs, which is ruling 2.5%, exceptionally 3.5% for up to 6km, and only then if it leads to an average gradient lower than 2.5% over 10km.

 

[Brissle Girl]

... and Micklefield to Hambleton too.

That isn't on the route which the main electrification scheme will contain though, is it? Whereas Colton to Neville Hill clearly is, so might as well get on with it as it is simple, infills a gap and adjacent to the work currently getting under way.

 

[CW2]

A surface route is well within the capabilities of modern EMUs though.
In Germany they build HSLs with 4% sustained gradients.

The problem with 4% gradients (or 1 in 25 in old money) is that the route is restricted to being used by a specific class of distributed power multiple unit only. I think Koln - Frankfurt was built before TSIs came into being - or maybe was already on the drawing board and got a derogation.
It will be an interesting design task to produce a viable, buildable, useful electrified Trans Pennine HSL.

 

[Halish Railway]

That isn't on the route which the main electrification scheme will contain though, is it? Whereas Colton to Neville Hill clearly is, so might as well get on with it as it is simple, infills a gap and adjacent to the work currently getting under way.

The route from Micklefield to Selby is included in the TransPennine route upgrade program - The rest of the route to Hull is a separate program. This wiring will be done so that the local stopping trains can be operated by electric traction, meaning that the Halifax to Hull service will be curtailed beyond Leeds and Selby.

I’m sure that there was a map of the route that they planned to electrictrify in the PWI video of the route upgrade that included Selby.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The newest German HSL, Erfurt-Nuremberg through the Thuringian hills, has a ruling gradient of 1.25%, increasing to 2% in 4 places to reduce costs.

Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I seem to remember DB had early problems on the route with only some classes of ICE allowed to work over it.

 

[Senex]

The newest German HSL, Erfurt-Nuremberg through the Thuringian hills, has a ruling gradient of 1.25%, increasing to 2% in 4 places to reduce costs.

Nuremberg–Erfurt high-speed railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I seem to remember DB had early problems on the route with only some classes of ICE allowed to work over it.

It was designed as a pure passenger line, with maximum gradients of 40‰ and a minimum curve radius of 3,350 metres and specifically for distributed-power trains — the ICE3. It takes a fairly direct line following the autobahn, and 47 km are in tunnel (and then add to the some very substantial bridges) — it goes through difficult country. In its early days I was fortunate enough to have cab rides over it in both directions, and a very impressive ride it is. The line has never quite been finished off, as the first few kilometres out of Köln-Deutz remain to be built. IIRC it remains unique on DB as a line purely capable of taking high-speed passenger traffic.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It might well be but you aren't going to be able to find a surface route which the various communities on the route are going to be happy with, particularly if they want to get it into the Bradford area.

I agree that sending a new railway route through the suburbs of Bradford into the city centre wouldn't go down well with residents... but there's a big difference between going through Bradford in tunnel; and going all the way from Miles Platting bank to Armley in tunnel.

If I'm still around by the time NPR opens, and it's in tunnel for 90+% of the Leeds-Manchester run, I'll use it once to bag the track and then stick to the classic route. I have no interest in catching a train if I can't watch the landscape go by- I might as well drive if that's the case.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Welcome back! Although I don’t think the announcement was missed; it has been talked about on other threads for the last few months.

Thanks.

I did have a look but couldn't see anything. I cannot believe how long ago it was since the bridge at Bolton Percy was rebuilt.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

You've all missed the announcement of electrification between Colton Junction and Church Fenton, as far as I can tell.

Welcome back. First post in nearly 4 years I see.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Welcome back. First post in nearly 4 years I see.

Thanks. It doesn't seem that long ago, but in much the same vein, that bridge at Bolton Percy was rebuilt 5 years ago and that only seems like yesterday too.

 

[Starmill]

You've all missed the announcement of electrification between Colton Junction and Church Fenton, as far as I can tell.

Transpennine Route Upgrade - Network Rail

Major investment to be made to the railway between York and Manchester via Leeds and Huddersfield. The Transpennine Route Upgrade (TRU) is a multi-billion pound, transformative, long-term railway infrastructure programme that will improve connectivity in the North. It will support economic...

www.networkrail.co.uk

I alluded recently to this in a different thread about decarbonisation, where I asked if Church Fenton - York, Leeds - Huddersfield and Kettering - Market Harborough were the only mainline routes in England that are authorised for electrification already, but not substantially complete. I'm still not sure if that's right.

I haven't really kept up with this thread. But that's interesting. Is this a first - a significant electrification scheme that - if I've understood it correctly - won't allow a single journey to convert from diesel to electric, but will simply allow some bi-modes to use electric for a greater proportion of their journeys?

As an isolated scheme this wouldn't seem to make much sense - especially since quite a few of the trains along that route are diesel-only Voyagers anyway. But as a stepping-stone towards wider trans-pennine electrification, it seems quite important.

I'm not entirely sure if anyone else has clarified on this or not so my apologies if so, but the work going on in Colton Jn - Church Fenton area is pretty significant and requires a long period of closure. There will be some noted changes to track and signalling, as well as the rather short extension of the overhead wires and I understand some modifications to the two stations. I won't try to summarise the desired effects on pathing and permissible speed but perhaps someone else can.

Do they? If so, it’s outside the TSI for HSLs, which is ruling 2.5%, exceptionally 3.5% for up to 6km, and only then if it leads to an average gradient lower than 2.5% over 10km.

Does the relevant TSI apply only for 250 km/h and above routes? Perhaps some of the gradients quoted are on ones lower than that if so?

 

[edwin_m]

I haven't really kept up with this thread. But that's interesting. Is this a first - a significant electrification scheme that - if I've understood it correctly - won't allow a single journey to convert from diesel to electric, but will simply allow some bi-modes to use electric for a greater proportion of their journeys?

I think it is, although if Kettering to Market Harborough is finally approved it will fall into the same category. EMUs would be able to turn back at MH but there are no plans for them to do so.

 

[QueensCurve]

You've all missed the announcement of electrification between Colton Junction and Church Fenton, as far as I can tell.

Transpennine Route Upgrade - Network Rail

Major investment to be made to the railway between York and Manchester via Leeds and Huddersfield. The Transpennine Route Upgrade (TRU) is a multi-billion pound, transformative, long-term railway infrastructure programme that will improve connectivity in the North. It will support economic...

www.networkrail.co.uk

An odd priority for electrification when Church Fenton has presently no electrified routes to anywhere else. Presumably BiMode ate electrification from Church Fenton to Neville Hill.

 

[Starmill]

An odd priority for electrification when Church Fenton has presently no electrified routes to anywhere else. Presumably BiMode ate electrification from Church Fenton to Neville Hill.

As I alluded to in post 2895 there is quite a bit of work going on, one of which is a short extension of overhead wires.

In 15 years or so there's likely to be a need for electrification there anyway for HS2 phase 2b.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does the relevant TSI apply only for 250 km/h and above routes? Perhaps some of the gradients quoted are on ones lower than that if so?

Any new passenger dedicated lines above 250km/h. Maximum permitted gradients are shallower on any other new passenger or mixed traffic lines.

 

[SuperNova]

Going back to 2012 when TP electrification was first authorised by DfT, the work done by NR was on the basis of wiring the existing route via Huddersfield as is - no realignment or remodelling.
This was then canned when a) NR ran out of money, and b) when they were told to redesign the scheme to bring "more benefits" (capacity/journey time).
So some bridges were raised east of Leeds and west of Stalybridge before the work stopped, but there was no wiring east of Manchester Victoria.

Since then the TP scheme has grown in scope into NPR and been linked to HS2, for which (as I understand it) the design work has not been completed apart from the Leeds-Huddersfield section and the Colton Jn-Church Fenton scheme which are both pretty much "shovel ready".
There's also a Miles Platting realignment scheme on the stocks.

Now we (allegedly) have a plan for completely new sections Liverpool-Manchester Airport and Manchester-Leeds via Bradford.
Wiring Victoria-Huddersfield as is takes us back to the original NR plan which was rejected by DfT in 2015.
Apart from Miles Platting that means remodelling Stalybridge (again) and resignalling west of Huddersfield - not just wiring.
I don't doubt HMG wants an early start and quick progress, but I somehow doubt NR's ability to get all this "shovel ready" within, say, 5 years.

Lets crack on with the parts that are ready. Now is the perfect time.

 

[edwin_m]

An odd priority for electrification when Church Fenton has presently no electrified routes to anywhere else. Presumably BiMode ate electrification from Church Fenton to Neville Hill.

I think the issue is that the part south of Church Fenton is tangled up with HS2 and NPR (incidentally in a webinar recently the head of NPR mentioned they wanted to push ahead with Leeds to Hull first). So any work done there now might have to be re-done as part of one or both of those schemes. I assume they've decided what needs doing north of Church Fenton that is future-proof against these schemes, and taken the sensible approach of hanging the wires at the same time as they do the track and signaling so all the disruption is in one hit.

 

[QueensCurve]

I think the issue is that the part south of Church Fenton is tangled up with HS2 and NPR (incidentally in a webinar recently the head of NPR mentioned they wanted to push ahead with Leeds to Hull first). So any work done there now might have to be re-done as part of one or both of those schemes. I assume they've decided what needs doing north of Church Fenton that is future-proof against these schemes, and taken the sensible approach of hanging the wires at the same time as they do the track and signaling so all the disruption is in one hit.

Leeds to Hull electrification should pick up the connection to the ECML at Hambleton, with a bit of luck.

 

[Mollman]

I think in regards to timing there are various reports that are being waited on. The main one being the National Infrastructure Commission who were originally meant to report as part of the Spring Budget. NR are also producing their de-carbonisation report which is meant to favour a rolling programme of electrification.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I think in regards to timing there are various reports that are being waited on. The main one being the National Infrastructure Commission who were originally meant to report as part of the Spring Budget. NR are also producing their de-carbonisation report which is meant to favour a rolling programme of electrification.

That's the problem. It's always awaiting future reports, and then probably more reports, until one happens to completely align with the current SoS for Transport's view. But usually they have moved on in the meantime, so whoever is producing the reports is shooting at a moving target.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

That's the problem. It's always awaiting future reports, and then probably more reports, until one happens to completely align with the current SoS for Transport's view. But usually they have moved on in the meantime, so whoever is producing the reports is shooting at a moving target.

Not this time. 2050 and net-zero is a reasonably well fixed (and in rail terms, rapidly approaching) target.

 

[The Ham]

Not this time. 2050 and net-zero is a reasonably well fixed (and in rail terms, rapidly approaching) target.

On Net Zero, I wonder if there's going to be much in the way of trying to improve significant amounts of capacity due to that of we saw a 6.25% shift from road to rail we'd see rail miles increase by 50%.

However that's probably a subject for a different thread.

 

[Senex]

On Net Zero, I wonder if there's going to be much in the way of trying to improve significant amounts of capacity due to that of we saw a 6.25% shift from road to rail we'd see rail miles increase by 50%.

However that's probably a subject for a different thread.

Six or more parliaments till then — that allows plenty of time for further procrastination.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Not this time. 2050 and net-zero is a reasonably well fixed (and in rail terms, rapidly approaching) target.

Yes, but there still appears to be a strong belief in the DfT that battery, hydrogen, bionic duckweed or whatever will be the answer. So let's spend a few more years trialling different technologies, producing further reports to make sure we get it right. Oh, hang on, where did that last decade go?

 

[Nottingham59]

As an isolated scheme this wouldn't seem to make much sense - especially since quite a few of the trains along that route are diesel-only Voyagers anyway

Church Fenton has presently no electrified routes to anywhere else.

That illustrates how bi-modes have transformed the economics of electrification. Even quite short streches of new OHLE can still deliver financial returns if there is enough traffic on the route - you don't need end-to-end wires for it to work. And as NR says "This is one of the busiest stretches of railway in the north". And some traction on this route being diesel-only voyagers is only marginally relevant to the business case: the next generation of passenger traction for cross country routes is almost certainly going to be wholly bimode.

 

[quantinghome]

I think the issue is that the part south of Church Fenton is tangled up with HS2 and NPR (incidentally in a webinar recently the head of NPR mentioned they wanted to push ahead with Leeds to Hull first). So any work done there now might have to be re-done as part of one or both of those schemes. I assume they've decided what needs doing north of Church Fenton that is future-proof against these schemes, and taken the sensible approach of hanging the wires at the same time as they do the track and signaling so all the disruption is in one hit.

I think that's probably right. It also maintains work for electrification designers and contractors so they can continue to build experience rather than lose it.