Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

[Snow1964]

Seems the Transport Secretary and Chancellor are on a day out to Manchester tondiscuss TRU and upgrades to A57 road

Transport links across the north of England will be transformed following 2 multi-billion-pound rail and road schemes being secured in last week’s budget.

The Chancellor and Transport Secretary joined forces on a visit to Manchester today (7 November 2024) to discuss how the Transpennine Route Upgrade (TRU) and long awaited A57 upgrade will better connect people, communities and businesses across the region.

It comes after last week’s budget secured funding to deliver both growth-enhancing transport projects that will provide critical connectivity between some of the country’s biggest economic centres, while supporting everyday journeys within the towns and cities in between.

For rail passengers, the TRU programme will transform the main line from Manchester to York, via Leeds and Huddersfield, into a high performing, reliable, electrified railway with more frequent, faster and greener journeys.

Journey times between the major cities of Manchester and Leeds will be slashed from 50 to 42 minutes, with up to 6 fast services every hour. Services from Manchester to York will also be cut by 10 minutes.

Rachel Reeves and Louise Haigh will welcome the completion of a major milestone that’s already been delivered on the west of the route, with electric trains running between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge. Once complete, the full 70-mile TRU route will be fully electrified, helping save 87,000 tonnes of carbon each year.

The cabinet ministers will also hear how the TRU is already supporting thousands of local jobs, with 5,000 people currently working on the project, including over 300 apprentices, helping local people progress their careers in and around their hometowns

Significant government investment set to transform transport links across the north

The Transpennine Route Upgrade and A57 link road upgrade will better connect people, communities and businesses across the region.

www.gov.uk

 

[xotGD]

"87,000 tonnes of carbon"

They mean 87,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide.

I despair every time I see this nonsense.

 

[HSTEd]

"87,000 tonnes of carbon"

They mean 87,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide.

I despair every time I see this nonsense.

87,000 tonnes of carbon is not 87,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide.
87,000 tonnes of carbon is equivalent to 319,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide.

There is a constant push-pull about what method is best for accounting for carbon emissions in the decarbonisation literature.

 

[Batley Lad]

When I last tried to use this bridge on 16/05/2023 it was "temporarily" shut for the railway works.

Thought it odd that the notice was from Leeds City council, when Sunny Bank Lane is in Batley, but it turns out that if you look on an OS map, the actual railway footbridge structure is (just) in Leeds.

Will be interesting to try and get back down there and see if there are any new notices about the footpath being permanently extinguished/diverted, as the photos above look pretty conclusive!

Googling it doesn't seem to find any results.

Had a try this afternoon to gain access off Sunny Bank Road - Unfortunately, Northern Gas are installing new gas pipes - see first pic below.

A couple of pics below with the latter a long distance attempt at seeing works around the now demolished footbridge.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

87,000 tonnes of carbon is not 87,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide.
87,000 tonnes of carbon is equivalent to 319,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide.

There is a constant push-pull about what method is best for accounting for carbon emissions in the decarbonisation literature.

C + O2 --> CO2

Atomic Weight/Molar masses 12 + 32 --> 44

So 87000 x 44/12 = 319000 in case anyone was wondering about the conversion.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm guessing the mathematics wasn't the source of the objection. It was that pure carbon in whichever form it's in, is not a substance that contributes to climate change by itself.
I too find it highly irritating when journalists use "carbon" as a synonym for "carbon dioxide".

 

[Snow1964]

I see DfT thinks HSTs are used on Transpennine based on their choice of photo. Not sure which station is in the picture.

Significant government investment set to transform transport links across the north

The Transpennine Route Upgrade and A57 link road upgrade will better connect people, communities and businesses across the region.

www.gov.uk

 

[D6130]

Not sure which station is in the picture.

Looks like Skipton.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

"87,000 tonnes of carbon"

They mean 87,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide.

I despair every time I see this nonsense.

I think they're under the impression that coal-fired steam trains are still running across the Pennines.

 

[Richard Scott]

87,000 tonnes of carbon is not 87,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide.
87,000 tonnes of carbon is equivalent to 319,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide.

There is a constant push-pull about what method is best for accounting for carbon emissions in the decarbonisation literature.

It may well be, but expect they mean 87000 tonnes of Carbon Dioxide and, as posted above, this stupid terminology calling it Carbon is ridiculous.
Whichever way it's meant I wish the media would use scientifically correct terms.

 

[xotGD]

C + O2 --> CO2

Atomic Weight/Molar masses 12 + 32 --> 44

So 87000 x 44/12 = 319000 in case anyone was wondering about the conversion.

But what they actually mean is 87000 tonnes of CO2.

For some reason, some people and organisations think they are being clever or trendy in some way by saying carbon instead of carbon dioxide.

We aren't emitting graphite or diamonds into the atmosphere.

 

[D6975]

Looks like Skipton.

More like Weston-Super-Mare.

 

[D6130]

More like Weston-Super-Mare.

I think you're right. Enlarging the photo shows that it's a green HST rather than a red one....and no sign of any catenary. In that case it's even further away from the Trans-Pennine route!

 

[AndyHudds]

Welcome and thank you for the information and update.

Will have a look over the weekend to see any progress and/or diversion of the footpaths.

I'm almost certain that the right of way will not be extinguished, legally, that's not allowed. It can be temporarily closed or diverted but certainly not extinguished. Whether Leeds City Council have the money to replace the bridge is another matter. If you e-mail the Public Rights of Way team at Leeds City Council they should be able to give you more info on what they plan to do.

 

[Marcus Fryer]

I'm almost certain that the right of way will not be extinguished, legally, that's not allowed. It can be temporarily closed or diverted but certainly not extinguished. Whether Leeds City Council have the money to replace the bridge is another matter. If you e-mail the Public Rights of Way team at Leeds City Council they should be able to give you more info on what they plan to do.

It can be permanently diverted if it goes through the correct process with the local council. Round our way there are several instances of the routes of ROWs (rights of way) being changed to facilitate housing developments, and also a case where a bridge over the railway was demolished to enable Great Western main line electrification and the ROW diverted over a nearby replacement road bridge. In fact, the new road bridge is still known as ‘Curtis Lane’ bridge after the name of the bridge that was demolished!

https://consultations.southglos.gov.uk/gf2.ti/f/642850/17740197.1/PDF/-/Explanatory%20Statement.pdf

 

[AndyHudds]

It can be permanently diverted if it goes through the correct process with the local council. Round our way there are several instances of the routes of ROWs (rights of way) being changed to facilitate housing developments, and also a case where a bridge over the railway was demolished to enable Great Western main line electrification and the ROW diverted over a nearby replacement road bridge. In fact, the new road bridge is still known as ‘Curtis Lane’ bridge after the name of the bridge that was demolished!

https://consultations.southglos.gov.uk/gf2.ti/f/642850/17740197.1/PDF/-/Explanatory%20Statement.pdf

That's all pretty reasonable and I don't doubt the legality of anything you say but I'm struggling to see how it could be permanently diverted without it being extinguished and without a totally new ROW being created.

 

[modernrail]

To be fair, a temporary prefab building like that, on railway-owned land, probably compares quite favourably to leasing an office block from the private sector... Especially if the would-be lessor knows it's a publicly-funded infrastructure project. The location is probably an advantage too.

Really? That looks like a colossal waste of money. How is something on that scale possibly required when most of the workers will be on site and presumably most of the design teams will be in the officers of the relevant consultancies who are busily gold plating every step to pull out as much money from the contract as possible. Probably being project managed by another consultancy with the same self-interest.

It really does feel like the engineering consultancies are

 

[Snow1964]

That's all pretty reasonable and I don't doubt the legality of anything you say but I'm struggling to see how it could be permanently diverted without it being extinguished and without a totally new ROW being created.

Officially the right of way is deviated, ultimately still goes from A to B but will be x metres west (or whatever direction) of original alignment between point C and D etc.

Getting a deviation is more an administrative process, extinguishing requires lot more and can take years if there are objections

 

[Bald Rick]

Really? That looks like a colossal waste of money. How is something on that scale possibly required when most of the workers will be on site and presumably most of the design teams will be in the officers of the relevant consultancies who are busily gold plating every step to pull out as much money from the contract as possible. Probably being project managed by another consultancy with the same self-interest.

It really does feel like the engineering consultancies are

‘presumably’ is doing a lot of work there.

Have you ever worked on site on a complex multi-disciplinary project of this scale? If so, where were the detailed design team located, and the team doing the as builts?

 

[Spartacus]

Officially the right of way is deviated, ultimately still goes from A to B but will be x metres west (or whatever direction) of original alignment between point C and D etc.

Getting a deviation is more an administrative process, extinguishing requires lot more and can take years if there are objections

It'll be annoying if it's a permanent closure, I always thought it was just in line for refurbishment and possibly raising slightly, it made for a nice walk without having to go too far on often busy roads. Howley crossing closing a few years ago was understandable, but this just seems to be an inconvenience for it's own sake.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

But what they actually mean is 87000 tonnes of CO2.

They are referring to a quantity of greenhouse gas emissions which has the 100-year global warming potential (GWP) of 87000 tonnes of CO2.

Some of those emissions (e.g. nitrous oxide) contain no carbon at all, but because they absorb infra red radiation, they do have a "carbon footprint".

For some reason, some people and organisations think they are being clever or trendy in some way by saying carbon instead of carbon dioxide.

When referring to climate warming, what should be measured is the 100 year GWP CO2-equivalent quantity of emissions. To represent that quantity, the term "carbon footprint" was coined and has now stuck and it's used all the time, often interchangeably with the term "carbon emissions". It's measured in tonnes, but nobody should be misled into thinking it refers to the mass of carbon present in the emissions.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

They are referring to a quantity of greenhouse gas emissions which has the 100-year global warming potential (GWP) of 87000 tonnes of CO2.

Some of those emissions (e.g. nitrous oxide) contain no carbon at all, but because they absorb infra red radiation, they do have a "carbon footprint".

When referring to climate warming, what should be measured is the 100 year GWP CO2-equivalent quantity of emissions. To represent that quantity, the term "carbon footprint" was coined and has now stuck and it's used all the time, often interchangeably with the term "carbon emissions". It's measured in tonnes, but nobody should be misled into thinking it refers to the mass of carbon present in the emissions.

Thank you for this. Very informative. I made an error too and I am a chemist/scientist!!

 

[xotGD]

They are referring to a quantity of greenhouse gas emissions which has the 100-year global warming potential (GWP) of 87000 tonnes of CO2.

Some of those emissions (e.g. nitrous oxide) contain no carbon at all, but because they absorb infra red radiation, they do have a "carbon footprint".



When referring to climate warming, what should be measured is the 100 year GWP CO2-equivalent quantity of emissions. To represent that quantity, the term "carbon footprint" was coined and has now stuck and it's used all the time, often interchangeably with the term "carbon emissions". It's measured in tonnes, but nobody should be misled into thinking it refers to the mass of carbon present in the emissions.

The article does not refer to CO2 equivalent, so I suspect only considers CO2 and not other greenhouse gases.

At least they gave a numeric value rather than the usual "The equivalent of taking XXX cars off the road".

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The article does not refer to CO2 equivalent, so I suspect only considers CO2 and not other greenhouse gases.

At least they gave a numeric value rather than the usual "The equivalent of taking XXX cars off the road".

I actually don’t mind them using that phraseology because I think the ordinary public can visualize it better. The Transpennine competes with the M62 so I think it is useful.

 

[modernrail]

‘presumably’ is doing a lot of work there.

Have you ever worked on site on a complex multi-disciplinary project of this scale? If so, where were the detailed design team located, and the team doing the as builts?

I have and very few of them were on-site. Why do those teams need to be in a prefab in Huddersfield rather than their usual offices in Leeds, Manchester or wherever? I could get it in a former era but is that really how it best works now?

Genuine question, as a former resident of Huddersfield who is glad these people will discover the unparalleled joy of Merrie England and as a taxpayer.

 

[Class 170101]

At least they gave a numeric value rather than the usual "The equivalent of taking XXX cars off the road".

I actually don’t mind them using that phraseology because I think the ordinary public can visualize it better. The Transpennine competes with the M62 so I think it is useful.

Is that a valid comparision these days though? Maybe when all cars were combustion engine cars but a small(ish) but increasing number of cars probably wouldn't emit the amount of CO2 being referred to because they are electric cars.

 

[D6130]

the unparalleled joy of Merrie England

Ah yes....the wonderful local cafe chain that - apart from the prices - is like something out of the 1960s. We have a couple over the hill in Calderdale....in Halifax and Brighouse. They will also discover the joys of the Sportsman, the King's Head and the Head of Steam more likely than not (after work of course!).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is that a valid comparision these days though? Maybe when all cars were combustion engine cars but a small(ish) but increasing number of cars probably wouldn't emit the amount of CO2 being referred to because they are electric cars.

Good point.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have and very few of them were on-site. Why do those teams need to be in a prefab in Huddersfield rather than their usual offices in Leeds, Manchester or wherever? I could get it in a former era but is that really how it best works now?

Genuine question, as a former resident of Huddersfield who is glad these people will discover the unparalleled joy of Merrie England and as a taxpayer.

1) To be close to the action for redesign etc
2) because it will be cheaper

 

[Backroom_boy]

I have and very few of them were on-site. Why do those teams need to be in a prefab in Huddersfield rather than their usual offices in Leeds, Manchester or wherever? I could get it in a former era but is that really how it best works now?

Genuine question, as a former resident of Huddersfield who is glad these people will discover the unparalleled joy of Merrie England and as a taxpayer.

Almost certainly these teams won't have a 'usual office'; vendors I work with (not in civ eng) are constantly wanting to have desk space in our offices as they don't have space themselves.