Transport for the North Strategic Transport Plan

[Olaf]

5-minutes was plenty of time to digest this report - a total waste of time.

There is a lot more to it than a five minute presentation - the points he raised are clearly addressed in the materials. Someone with his experience should also know better how to behave in public - he is still behaving like he was a CBB contestant.

 

[frodshamfella]

Frodsham isn't near Stockton Heath.

If you don't live in south Warrington. If you do, then M56 to the airport station would likely be quicker than to any station anywhere near Warrington town centre.

Any surface route through Warrington is problematic. The route suggested on page 1 of the thread (there's nothing in the report) goes through areas designated for development, some to justify the cost of a new £200m road which would also cut north-south across that route (which crosses the WCML, already on an embankment, and also crosses the tidal Mersey twice). And can you imagine the land-take to cross the Ship Canal in Latchford? At the sort of speed envisaged (though the 15 mins Liverpool to Manchester Airport doesn't really square with 28 mins to Piccadilly) you'd be talking demolitions, and thousands of homes affected by noise. Connection with Bank Quay or Central has minimal advantage (just for a few local stations on the Liverpool-Manchester routes).

And if the influence of Manchester Airport is an issue (also suggested above) then what will Peel think of a fast link from Liverpool to Manchester Airport that bypasses their Liverpool Airport?

Frodsham and Stockton Heath are about 15 mins apart max. I live between the two in a village, Runcorn is still the easiest station for me to use for a London train. I use Acton Bridge also which is v close for Birmingham and Liverpool and Frodsham or Cuddington for Chester.

 

[stephen rp]

Noting the emboldened part of your posting above that I have done, can I ask if any formal response by the elected council has been made to those specific points you have raised as part of their strategic forward planning for the area in question.

And blight thousands of homes unnecessarily?

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

That depends, if it is something to do with house prices or car insurance then no, the good folk of Ilkley want nothing to do with Bradford. However when Bradford Council are looking at methods to improve the economic situation of the Metropolitan area, then its surprising how suddenly they want engagement. In truth Ilkley is an odd fit for Bradford, the main roads and rail links have to pass through Leeds areas to reach Ilkley. However in recent years the areas around Bradford have been successfully sold as film locations, and the area as a whole is increasingly attractive to film makers and Ilkley is starting to benefit from that so maybe in time perceptions will change.

It is interesting. I live right out towards the end of the Airedale commuter zone but whilst I go to Leeds daily I have only been to Bradford a handful of times in the last few years - and then usually for an explicit work-related purpose! (Honorable exception for a trip to Sunbridge Wells when it opened).

Bradford MDC might collect my bins, but really I look to Leeds (as the nearby city) and Skipton and Ilkley as my local towns.

But then, equally, I work 3 days a week in Manchester and 2 in Leeds, so for 5 days a week my fastest commute is via Leeds - if Bradford were to have more than its current 'awkward 2 station and a wander across town for a slow service' provision I might go through it more - and thence would think of it more naturally as my local hub...

 

[Roose]

I think John Prescott was over reacting - as usual - he should have taken a little more time to digest the materials.

He had no intention of doing so, having tipped off tv camera operators beforehand that he would harrumph and leave. Everything he then said about TfN in interviews was known before the event.

 

[xotGD]

It is interesting. I live right out towards the end of the Airedale commuter zone but whilst I go to Leeds daily I have only been to Bradford a handful of times in the last few years - and then usually for an explicit work-related purpose! (Honorable exception for a trip to Sunbridge Wells when it opened).

Bradford MDC might collect my bins, but really I look to Leeds (as the nearby city) and Skipton and Ilkley as my local towns.

But then, equally, I work 3 days a week in Manchester and 2 in Leeds, so for 5 days a week my fastest commute is via Leeds - if Bradford were to have more than its current 'awkward 2 station and a wander across town for a slow service' provision I might go through it more - and thence would think of it more naturally as my local hub...

Yesterday I chose to travel back from Manchester via Bradford instead of via Leeds (thereby yellow-penning the Ordsall Chord and the line up through Rochdale). Due to a late arrival into Interchange I then had a +13 to get to FS; somewhat out of breath, I made it with 3 minutes to spare, but it is hardly an ideal way to organise a journey - I'll be travelling via Leeds again next time.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

According to my RAIL magazine (the latest issue: issue 872 page 7)
The following projects have been proposed in the transport plan:

• Enhancement of Leeds-Hull Corridor
• Enhancement of Sheffield to Hull Corridor
• Enhancement of Sheffield to Leeds Corridor
• Renewal of track and vehicle infrastrure on the Sheffield Supertram (expires 2024)
• Upgrades to Preston and Crewe stations
• Creation of a Crewe HS2 hub
• Capacity enhancements on the East Coast Main Line and stations along it
• Reinstatement of the Skipton to Colne
• Upgrade to Cleethorpes to Doncaster Line
• Upgrades to Stockport and Liverpool Central
• An extension to Metrolink to Terminal 2
• A new link and town centre station connecting Skilmersdale to Liverpool and Manchester
• Journey time improvements Wrexham-Bidston/Liverpool line
• A rapid transit link to John Lennon Airport
• Northern Powerhouse Rail Schemes
• Connecting classic and HS2 networks at Manchester Airport
• A new link to Doncaster Sheffield Airport
• Gauge Enhancements for Freight
• Minor Works to increase frequencies in Cumbria, North East, Cheshire (including the reopening Northwich-Samdbach)
• Development of tram-train in Manchester

 

[Mogster]

Is the reopening of the Skemersdale branch ever going to happen? It seems to have been talked about for years...

Iirc the original rail route to the town center is pretty much available as is the land the station used to stand on. The college that stands on it has been closed for a couple of years, you’d have to knock that down. Plenty of room for park and ride though.

 

[Killingworth]

According to my RAIL magazine (the latest issue: issue 872 page 7)
The following projects have been proposed in the transport plan:

The list of schemes is much greater than could be realistically expected to be delivered. By including so many it's clear that many will have to be pruned out to achieve those with highest priority. If money is available some projects will move up the list, and government isn't the only source.

Take the desired 40 minutes between Sheffield a Manchester. It doesn't take much examination to realise it can't be done down the Hope Valley. Maybe 45. A reopened Woodhead would be enormously expensive and might struggle to deliver 40 minutes.

If money is no object, and it most certainly is, you could deliver Manchester - Sheffield non-stop in possibly 25 minutes or less by tunnelling straight through on the level, about 32 miles. OK, the Japanese, Swiss or Scandinavians have done such projects, but it could never happen here.

 

[Meerkat]

Skelmersdale presumably waiting for whether the battery versions of the new trains work?
Not allowed to extend the third rail are they?

 

[Bevan Price]

The list of schemes is much greater than could be realistically expected to be delivered. By including so many it's clear that many will have to be pruned out to achieve those with highest priority. If money is available some projects will move up the list, and government isn't the only source.

Take the desired 40 minutes between Sheffield a Manchester. It doesn't take much examination to realise it can't be done down the Hope Valley. Maybe 45. A reopened Woodhead would be enormously expensive and might struggle to deliver 40 minutes.

If money is no object, and it most certainly is, you could deliver Manchester - Sheffield non-stop in possibly 25 minutes or less by tunnelling straight through on the level, about 32 miles. OK, the Japanese, Swiss or Scandinavians have done such projects, but it could never happen here.

If most of the money needs to come from Whitehall, I am the only one who suspects that most of it will get spent on new roads - maybe including a road tunnel near Woodhead?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the reopening of the Skemersdale branch ever going to happen? It seems to have been talked about for years...

Iirc the original rail route to the town center is pretty much available as is the land the station used to stand on. The college that stands on it has been closed for a couple of years, you’d have to knock that down. Plenty of room for park and ride though.

There is no "original route to the town centre", it went to Blaguegate (Old Skem). Any reopening will be basically a complete new build.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The mention made in the "wish list" of the Northwich to Sandbach line will hearten those forum members who have contributed many postings of support for it in the very long running website thread about that particular railway line.

 

[Killingworth]

If most of the money needs to come from Whitehall, I am the only one who suspects that most of it will get spent on new roads - maybe including a road tunnel near Woodhead?

Being a rail Forum there's sometimes a tendency to overlook the very much greater volume of freight and passenger traffic carried by road. The last 100 years has seen a gradual shift as housing and industry has moved away from rail served locations and dispersed around the land. To frustrate any major return to rail much railway land has been sold off and developed making even minor improvements incredibly expensive.

The flexibility of road transport will demand greater investment there. However the logical step of connecting the M1 to Manchester by an all weather tunnelled route nearer Sheffield is going to be very - challenging! The pros and cons of that need a thread of their own.

 

[DH1Commuter]

I note the complete absence of any mentions of the north-east for potential rail enhancements - very disappointing, given that Washington remains off the rail map (heavy and light), and the main roads into Tyneside and Wearside congested, but not a huge surprise. IF reducing transport times and improving air quality were considered important, expanding the electrified Metro system to Washington (+ Belmont/Durham for parkway station) on the existing alignment would be a no-brainer and would potentially take a lot of vehicles off the A1; better to use the Leamside line for something than wait another 20 years whilst people argue for the 'perfect' heavy rail/freight/light rail/diversion solution.

 

[Mogster]

There is no "original route to the town centre", it went to Blaguegate (Old Skem). Any reopening will be basically a complete new build.

Thanks. I wasn’t sure were the old rail line went. There are statements on the net saying it’s available but they must be cobblers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The flexibility of road transport will demand greater investment there. However the logical step of connecting the M1 to Manchester by an all weather tunnelled route nearer Sheffield is going to be very - challenging! The pros and cons of that need a thread of their own.

The M62 motorway is a major road that already links the western regions to the eastern regions of the northern areas in which major cities are so situate and there are connections from the M62 to many major roads in the said region.

 

[Killingworth]

The M62 motorway is a major road that already links the western regions to the eastern regions of the northern areas in which major cities are so situate and there are connections from the M62 to many major roads in the said region.

Like I said this road related subject requires a separate thread. The M62 becomes very congested at the best of times but can be a nightmare in bad weather. A relief route to the south would be used, but we get back to the business case issue.

 

[ricoblade]

According to my RAIL magazine (the latest issue: issue 872 page 7)
The following projects have been proposed in the transport plan:

I was looking for a thread on the Doncaster Sheffield Airport Link and found your link to the Rail Magazine article. Are there any more details please as I saw that the South Yorkshire Mayor's transport plans this week were looking into the feasibility of extending the Tram Train to the airport.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I was looking for a thread on the Doncaster Sheffield Airport Link and found your link to the Rail Magazine article. Are there any more details please as I saw that the South Yorkshire Mayor's transport plans this week were looking into the feasibility of extending the Tram Train to the airport.

There is not much detail at all. I would expect more details will be released when the plan is approved by the Government. The Government has hinted approval for the strategy.

Tram-Train extension sounds good to me. 500,000 people have used it in 6 months. What was the prediction originally?

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont believe any passenger forecasts have ever been published, it having a bcr of 1.0 on the original budget of £17.5m suggests a couple of million fare paying passengers required annually at least.

 

[johnnychips]

I was looking for a thread on the Doncaster Sheffield Airport Link and found your link to the Rail Magazine article. Are there any more details please as I saw that the South Yorkshire Mayor's transport plans this week were looking into the feasibility of extending the Tram Train to the airport.

Barmy. Takes relatively ages compared to train between Sheffield and Rotherham, they have 50 mph max, even Pacers go faster; would need to be electrified between Parkgate and Doncaster. Then at Doncaster the electrified current is different; then you need to negotiate crossing main East Coast Line; electrify to somewhere near Finningley then build a street section to the airport.

 

[Killingworth]

I was looking for a thread on the Doncaster Sheffield Airport Link and found your link to the Rail Magazine article. Are there any more details please as I saw that the South Yorkshire Mayor's transport plans this week were looking into the feasibility of extending the Tram Train to the airport.

There is a desire for a rail link to Doncaster Sheffield Airport, but I've seen nothing to suggest tramtrain for that. See the Mayor's Transport Vision https://sheffieldcityregion.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Mayoral-Transport-Vision-Final.pdf

I'd take quite a lot of that as wishful thinking, although a heavy rail link is wanted by the airport operators, especially if they can get others to finnce most of it

I attended the launch of their Masterplan last year, see; https://www.peel.co.uk/doncaster-sheffield-airport-announces-new-vision-releases-20-year-masterplan/https://www.peel.co.uk/doncaster-sheffield-airport-announces-new-vision-releases-20-year-masterplan/

On rail linking I thought I'd seen the plans online but can't immediately find them. This is the Masterplan

Doncaster Sheffield Airport announces new Vision and releases 20-year Masterplan
Thursday, March 22, 2018
The award-winning Doncaster Sheffield Airport have today launched their ambitious Vision and Masterplan outlining the expected growth over the next twenty years. The Vision realises the airport’s full potential, delivering major international connectivity and economic benefit to Yorkshire, the surrounding regions and the UK.

The Vision sees the creation of a highly sophisticated Aerotropolis in the Sheffield City Region with the airport’s 1600-acre site, known as Aero Centre Yorkshire, becoming a central hub. The ‘airport city’ would help transform the North of England, creating 73,000 new jobs for the Sheffield City Region and provide exciting advanced manufacturing, logistics and aviation-led innovation opportunities. It is anticipated that the Vision would deliver £3.2 billion GVA per year by 2048 across the region.

A key component of the Vision is the addition of an airport rail station connected to the East Coast Mainline; requiring only 7 miles of new track, it could be open in just five years’ time.

The station would provide a direct rail link to London and Newcastle in under 90 minutes travel time. It would also be connected to major regional centres such as Sheffield, Leeds and Hull. Up to 9 million people living within a 90 minute journey time would have access to the airport by public transport, an increase of 6.6m.

The station proposal has received widespread support and has been recognised by stakeholders including Transport for the North, Network Rail and current train operators.

The station would serve the airport’s passengers, onsite workers, new housing and employment areas – an estimated 1.6 million people per year, by 2037. Additionally, the rail station would accelerate the development of housing in the immediate vicinity and surrounding areas, with an initial delivery of over 8,500 houses anticipated.

Regional tourism would be also boosted, not only by an expanded airport, but with the expansion and construction of major attractions close to the airport. The Yorkshire Wildlife Park which is already set to grow to 1.5 million visitors, along with the conception of a new PGA golf course, both served by the airport station, would benefit.

The Vision highlights the airport’s cargo plans in line with the increased passenger growth, as the site has the ability to handle up to 250,000 tonnes of cargo per year. This would support the UK’s international trade at a time when no airports across the UK are significantly expanding cargo capacity.

The airport’s Masterplan detailing the future development of the current site and projected growth over the next 20 years will now go out for public consultation. The airport is forecasting 4.7 million passengers and 70,000 tonnes per year over 20 years. Should a rail station be open by 2024, the expected passenger numbers would more than double to 11.8 million by 2050. Details on the 8 week public consultation can be found here: www.flydsa.co.uk/masterplan

Robert Hough CBE, Chairman of Peel Airports said:

“This is a Vision with a central pillar that delivers air connectivity, new housing, highly skilled employment, tourism and better rail connectivity at exceptional value for money, it is straightforward to build and deliverable in 5 years. It is of national significance for aviation and the economy, particularly the North, and we want to see it realised as soon as possible. This is required beyond what Heathrow expansion will deliver, with a range of benefits for the North and East of the country.”

Ros Jones CBE, Mayor of Doncaster said:

“Doncaster Sheffield Airport is a huge asset for Doncaster and we are committed to making it a big success. This Vision shows how the airport can be an integral part of the local community, a place to live, work and travel. The size of the economic prize within this Vision is unrivalled and will be a long lasting contributor to the rebalancing of our economy.

Nigel Brewster, vice-chair of the Sheffield City Region Local Enterprise Partnership (LEP), said:

“I would urge residents, businesses, and politicians from all parties to get behind these ambitious yet deliverable plans for our airport, which include connecting it with the East Coast Mainline. Doncaster Sheffield Airport and its partners has a clear aim in mind and tangible plans in place to make it a reality.

Doncaster Sheffield Airport is central to the city region achieving its economic plan of 70,000 additional jobs, an additional 3.1bn GVA and 6,000 new businesses. We have always seen growth of the airport as being a key priority, but no one ‘actor’ can make this growth happen. We must come together with Peel, Doncaster Council, and Transport for the North – and the city region must also do our own part through investment in local transport infrastructure.”

Jonathan Spruce, Strategy Director, Transport for the North said:

“Doncaster Sheffield Airport’s Vision would see it unlock significant passenger and cargo capacity and could create a major economic cluster, supporting the transformation of the North of England economy. We are currently consulting on our draft Strategic Transport Plan for the North which identifies DSA as a key economic centre and we recognise the need for enhanced rail access to DSA.”

 

[Glenn1969]

Does the Mayor have devolved power over Transport funding or is it bogged down in the logjam over wider Yorkshire devolution which is held up because Leeds can't bring themselves to agree to an elected Mayor unless things have changed

 

[Killingworth]

Does the Mayor have devolved power over Transport funding or is it bogged down in the logjam over wider Yorkshire devolution which is held up because Leeds can't bring themselves to agree to an elected Mayor unless things have changed

You're right about Yorkshire being unable to agree a common policy. Middlesbrough has, of course, become part of the Tees Valley Combined Authority

Leeds City Region includes Barnsley - who are also in the actively constituted Sheffield City Region. The Sheffield City Region's elected Mayor is Dan Jarvis, a sitting Barnsley MP who wants a Greater Yorkshire Region to include everywhere. Whilst Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield are happy to accept this there are serious objections from Sheffield, and folks in York and Hull like to be different too. Until all this is resolved there'll be no pot of local gold to finance any major transport investment other than through Transport for the North - and that remains untested.

 

[tbtc]

Peel (the owners of Robin Hood Doncaster Sheffield Airport) certainly have great ambitions for other people to spend money on projects that will benefit land that Peel own - they seem masters at buying things and then squeezing as much public or (other) private money into transport links that will massively increase the worth of Peel's assets.

That said, there are a number of growth areas in south east Doncaster - from the Wildlife Park to the Amazon Warehouse (and "inland port"/ distribution centres) and large numbers of new homes proposed. And heavy rail has become incredibly slow/ difficult/ expensive to introduce, so I can see why a tram/ tram-train is seen as something realistic that could be up and running in a couple of years.

A toilet-less tram-train all the way from Sheffield to DSA seems a bit of a stretch - it's already tricky enough to path between the heavy rail trains at Rotherham and the frequent trams through Sheffield (given the lack of a dedicated space in Sheffield to layover - any terminating at Sheffield has to be carefully slotted into the few minutes between "blue" and "yellow" trams).

Mind you, if it means we wire the line from Rotherham to Doncaster (as a price to pay for this) then that'd be a huge step in the right direction - the tram train infrastructure through Rotherham is intended to be easy to convert to "proper" electrification at a later date.

As for the "Greater Yorkshire" stuff - sounds great in theory but Sheffield has been an awkward partner and some down here would rather have a coalition of left leaning areas (including Chesterfield/ Bolsover) rather than be dominated by Leeds (given the propensity in other parts of Yorkshire to vote Tory). Not saying I agree with the approach Sheffield has tried to take but I think a number of people where I live would rather be a big fish in a small pond (than seemingly ruled by the larger number of people in the rest of Yorkshire). But then Sheffield has always been a bit "different"...