Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[DaveHarries]

Evening all,

Came across this on Twitter this morning from Transport for Wales: you shouldn't need a Twitter login to read the post and the article.

https://twitter.com/transport_wales/status/1419587294269296640

HTIOI,
Dave

 

[fgwrich]

"Hi Stadler, can you help us to save some money, and erm, deliver them in Greater Anglia without the grey hilly bits please"

In all seriousness, it's good to see some progress with these at last. Now, which fleet will enter service first, the units from CAF or the units from Stadler.

 

[anthony263]

Evening all,

Came across this on Twitter this morning from Transport for Wales: you shouldn't need a Twitter login to read the post and the article.

https://twitter.com/transport_wales/status/1419587294269296640

HTIOI,
Dave

These 1st two units are class 231s . Hopefully won't be too long before they enter service

"Hi Stadler, can you help us to save some money, and erm, deliver them in Greater Anglia without the grey hilly bits please"

In all seriousness, it's good to see some progress with these at last. Now, which fleet will enter service first, the units from CAF or the units from Stadler.

Caf 197s considering the first 2 units on test in North Wales.

Tfw confirmed to modern railways magazine the Chester to Liverpool service will get them.first

 

[D365]

Evening all,

Came across this on Twitter this morning from Transport for Wales: you shouldn't need a Twitter login to read the post and the article.

https://twitter.com/transport_wales/status/1419587294269296640

HTIOI,
Dave

For those who aren’t able to access Twitter:

NEWS: New #SouthWalesMetro trains being built as part of the transformation of the Wales and Borders network have reached another key milestone as testing gets underway in Europe

What does ”HTIOI” mean?

 

[jw]

What does ”HTIOI” mean?

Hope This Is of Interest...

 

[Mag_seven]

Thread reopened to allow discussion specifically on the progress of the delivery and entry into service of the Class 231 / 756 "FLIRT" trains for Transport for Wales.

Note this thread is not for the discussion of any other class of train nor for speculation.

thanks

 

[Bob Price]

A tweet here showing the first complete unit on delivery. Not sure if to Wales or to the test track. https://twitter.com/FlywheelMedia1/status/1425005938830893068?s=19

 

[J-2739]

That is one attractive looking train, amplified by its stunning livery. Like something from Switzerland, really...(!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is one attractive looking train, amplified by its stunning livery. Like something from Switzerland, really...(!)

Quite possibly because the livery is basically identical to the livery SBB uses on their regional FLIRTs I suppose! Very slightly different in terms of the window band and logo, otherwise the same, and certainly the same colours.

I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

 

[Domh245]

amplified by its stunning livery.

I don't know about stunning - white with a black window band and red front/roof isn't what I'd think of if asked to define a stunning livery. Smart, definitely.

 

[J-2739]

Quite possibly because the livery is basically identical to the livery SBB uses on their regional FLIRTs I suppose! Very slightly different in terms of the window band and logo, otherwise the same, and certainly the same colours.

I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

Ain't it, haha!

I don't know about stunning - white with a black window band and red front/roof isn't what I'd think of if asked to define a stunning livery. Smart, definitely.

Yeah, maybe that's the word I was looking for. Although the livery does catch the eye!

 

[XAM2175]

For comparison, here's how SBB do a FLIRT 3:

(from https://railcolornews.com/2020/05/01/ch-expert-the-new-flirts-for-the-rer-waad-vaud-network/)

That said, I do like it, quite a lot.

 

[Mogz]

Looking good.
Which routes will the TfW FLIRTs operate on?

I travelled on some in East Anglia recently and was impressed all round. The power car/gubbins unit certainly makes for a quieter and smoother ride vis a vis underfloor engines.

 

[jopsuk]

Looking good.
Which routes will the TfW FLIRTs operate on?

I travelled on some in East Anglia recently and was impressed all round. The power car/gubbins unit certainly makes for a quieter and smoother ride vis a vis underfloor engines.

According to wikipedia, which is fully sourced in this case from official documents:

Class 231 units will operate services between Maesteg and Cheltenham Spa as well as Cardiff Central and Ebbw Vale.

and for the class 756 tri mode (OHLE/Diesel/Battery):
3 car:

Services between Caerphilly/Coryton to Penarth

4 car:

Services between Rhymney to Barry Island/Bridgend via VoG

 

[Buzz68]

So have they given a date of delivery into the UK of the first 231/756, then I'm guess into service sometime next year?

 

[Kyle2]

I still find it funny that the Rhymney Valley/Vale of Glamorgan lines are getting a nicer train than the long-distance West Wales to North Wales/NW England routes lol (assuming the 756's are like the 755's that GA use).

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I still find it funny that the Rhymney Valley/Vale of Glamorgan lines are getting a nicer train than the long-distance West Wales to North Wales/NW England routes lol (assuming the 756's are like the 755's that GA use).

I thought the same too! It is a pity the Flirts weren't specified for longer distance services and the "more commuter like" Civitys put to the Cheltenham-Ebbw-Maestag & Cardiff locals instead. It's a little like GWR using the Castle sets on regional services with the 158s/165/166s (150s previously) for long distance!

 

[Envoy]

I don't think that the FLIRT'S are available with end gangways - which would be needed for splitting trains at places like Machynlleth and Chester. The original plan to have the CAF 197’s running as 5 cars from Manchester to Swansea and then being split so that 2 cars can run into west Wales may also have changed. (TfW have now decided to operate Mk4’s with DVT and class 67 locomotives from Swansea to Manchester with 197’s also on this route).

I really do wonder if it is wise to have these Stadler FLIRT class 231’s as diesel only? They will already be under the wires between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff. If the UK government decide to extend the electrification west of Cardiff to Swansea, then we will have new diesel trains running under the wires for an even greater distance.

What happens if the diesel engine fails? At least with the 197’s, each coach will be self powered so the train could always get along in the case of an engine failure. Does that diesel ‘pack’ just power the bogies to which it is adjoined and if so, does that not mean poorer traction?

 

[Bletchleyite]

FLIRT power modules contain either 2 or 4 separate engines (I don't know which these are, but on the Greater Anglia units it's 2 on the 3-cars and 4 on the 4-cars). Other than their location, this is similar in effect to having one under each coach in resilience terms.

I do think they should have specced pantographs for future flexibility, though. Can't have added much to the cost. Or at least passive provision, i.e. a pantograph well and transformer mounts.

On FLIRTs the power bogies are the ones under the cab ends, I believe, the Jacobs bogies under the power module are I think unpowered. And the things take off like stink.

 

[RailWonderer]

I'd be curious to know the terms of the bid, and why TfW went for a microfleet of 11 diesel only trains instead of another 11 to add to the 24 strong 756 tri mode fleet. From zooming in on my screen, the seats look like the ones Avanti previewed for their new 80x fleet, so a large improvement. Like on GA, these will revolutionise Welsh rail travel hugely from drafty, rattly, worn out and hard seated Sprinters.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'd be curious to know the terms of the bid, and why TfW went for a microfleet of 11 diesel only trains instead of another 11 to add to the 24 strong 756 tri mode fleet. From zooming in on my screen, the seats look like the ones Avanti previewed for their new 80x fleet, so a large improvement. Like on GA, these will revolutionise Welsh rail travel hugely from drafty, rattly, worn out and hard seated Sprinters.

The terms of the bid could possibly be confidential

 

[supervc-10]

FLIRT power modules contain either 2 or 4 separate engines (I don't know which these are, but on the Greater Anglia units it's 2 on the 3-cars and 4 on the 4-cars). Other than their location, this is similar in effect to having one under each coach in resilience terms.

I do think they should have specced pantographs for future flexibility, though. Can't have added much to the cost. Or at least passive provision, i.e. a pantograph well and transformer mounts.

On FLIRTs the power bogies are the ones under the cab ends, I believe, the Jacobs bogies under the power module are I think unpowered. And the things take off like stink.

I'm sure I read somewhere that these do have the capacity to be relatively easily converted to bi-mode (tri-mode?) but that the thinking was that there was enough diesel only line that it wasn't worth doing just yet. It certainly looks like a pantograph well is in place- the roofline of the second car dips at the front, which is where the panto goes on the 755s. Easy to see on this with the red roof!

 

[Caaardiff]

I was looking up some info on these trains and TfW's own page makes it look like the 231's are tri-mode and 756's are bi mode.

Our new trains | Transport for Wales (trc.cymru)



Stadlers own press release only states the 231s are diesel.

Artikel - Stadler (stadlerrail.com)

 

[anthony263]

If tfw do decide to invest on more electrification say to swansea then I can see the 231s being equipped with pantograph s

 

[Cardiff123]

I still find it funny that the Rhymney Valley/Vale of Glamorgan lines are getting a nicer train than the long-distance West Wales to North Wales/NW England routes lol (assuming the 756's are like the 755's that GA use).

TfW have secured Mk 4 carriages for most of the Swansea to Manchester and Cardiff to Holyhead services, and the latest issue of RAIL magazine suggests TfW have secured even more Mk 4's on top of what's been announced, but I think the article writer is bit confused with what's been announced already.

If the UK government decide to extend the electrification west of Cardiff to Swansea, then we will have new diesel trains running under the wires for an even greater distance.

This sentence did make me smile

 

[Pete_uk]

Looking very smart. I still say the livery needs green though

What services are these intended for? I'm guessing longer distance?

 

[berneyarms]

TfW have secured Mk 4 carriages for most of the Swansea to Manchester and Cardiff to Holyhead services, and the latest issue of RAIL magazine suggests TfW have secured even more Mk 4's on top of what's been announced, but I think the article writer is bit confused with what's been announced already.

To say that the Mark 4 coaches will operate most of the South Wales-Manchester & Cardiff-Holyhead services is a slight exaggeration.

Using four sets, they could do likely do six trips each way between South Wales & Manchester, while two sets will do three each way between Cardiff & Holyhead. That still leaves the majority of such services on both routes as Class 197 operated.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Does anyone know what the maintenance arrangements are for the TfW new build trains ?
The Stadler Tram trains are obviously going to be maintained at Taff's Well in a new purpose built facility and are probably captive to their system.
How about the 231s and 756s ? Will they have any Stadler "aftercare" or is it TfW maintenance staff as in the current fleets ? I am guessing the 197s will be maintained by existing TfW staff too.
If so this is a departure from many new fleets where the TOC via DfT tend to buy in "whole life" care from the manufacturer.

 

[Energy]

Does anyone know what the maintenance arrangements are for the TfW new build trains ?
The Stadler Tram trains are obviously going to be maintained at Taff's Well in a new purpose built facility and are probably captive to their system.
How about the 231s and 756s ? Will they have any Stadler "aftercare" or is it TfW maintenance staff as in the current fleets ? I am guessing the 197s will be maintained by existing TfW staff too.
If so this is a departure from many new fleets where the TOC via DfT tend to buy in "whole life" care from the manufacturer.

197s will be maintained by CAF. Not sure about the Flirts but I'd imagine Stadler will do maintanence.

 

[PHILIPE]

Does anyone know what the maintenance arrangements are for the TfW new build trains ?
The Stadler Tram trains are obviously going to be maintained at Taff's Well in a new purpose built facility and are probably captive to their system.
How about the 231s and 756s ? Will they have any Stadler "aftercare" or is it TfW maintenance staff as in the current fleets ? I am guessing the 197s will be maintained by existing TfW staff too.
If so this is a departure from many new fleets where the TOC via DfT tend to buy in "whole life" care from the manufacturer.

The CAF 197s will be maintained by CAF at Chester, taking over the current Alstom 175 Depot at Chester and at Machynlleth (ERMTS ones). Thiese have been covered in the CAF thread and the Flirts will be maintained by Stadler at Canton following alterations at the Depot.