Transport for Wales 769's

[XAM2175]

They are on RTT, but still under ATW as the TOC. Same as Avanti are still under VT.

@Jamesrob637 is referring to the unit allocations feature of RTT, for which TfW do not currently provide data.

 

[Jamesrob637]

@Jamesrob637 is referring to the unit allocations feature of RTT, for which TfW do not currently provide data.

Voilà. So if Alderley Edge to Southport is a 769, despite the lack of air-con I'll take it and hope to travel in declassified First. If it's 2-car, I'd rather go on a pogo stick (or wait for the Hazel Grove to Blackpool 10 minutes behind it even if that's only 3-car rather than 6)

 

[Buzz68]

Does anyone happen to know which 769 came down from Rhymney this morning as 5Z55 to Canton. Thank you.

 

[craigybagel]

Does anyone happen to know which 769 came down from Rhymney this morning as 5Z55 to Canton. Thank you.

007

 

[Buzz68]

007

Thank you Craig

 

[Jacob Didcote]

Don't suppose anyone knows if any are out today? TYIA!

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Don't suppose anyone knows if any are out today? TYIA!

3, 6 and 7 are out

 

[Class319&373]

Any 769s working today? If so, are there any full Rhymney-Penarth services today, I only found Bargoed services the last time. Hoping for a full run this time.

 

[sd0733]

Any 769s working today? If so, are there any full Rhymney-Penarth services today, I only found Bargoed services the last time. Hoping for a full run this time.

Looks like nothing but 769s on Rhymneys during the day. 769002, 007, 008 on the 3 Rhymney diagrams. 1 769 on Bargoed (0907 and every 3 hours from Penarth is 003) with a 150 and 153x2 on the other diagrams.

 

[Class319&373]

Looks like nothing but 769s on Rhymneys during the day. 769002, 007, 008 on the 3 Rhymney diagrams. 1 769 on Bargoed (0907 and every 3 hours from Penarth is 003) with a 150 and 153x2 on the other diagrams.

Nice, many thanks for the info.

 

[Optom1]

Caught007 to Penarth (arrival4.25)On the the return journey,16.07 the driver was bemoaning a failed 769 as he only had a standing room only two car150 that did not have an air- conditionrd cab. A statement from Mr Skates would be welcome.

 

[Caaardiff]

Caught007 to Penarth (arrival4.25)On the the return journey,16.07 the driver was bemoaning a failed 769 as he only had a standing room only two car150 that did not have an air- conditionrd cab. A statement from Mr Skates would be welcome.

What has Ken Skates got to do with anything?

 

[Optom1]

Ken Skates (Transport secretary for Wales)proudly told the media that we had wonderful new trains onthe Rumney valley linethat would reduce overcrowding ,it hasn’t happened yet.

 

[Cardiff123]

Ken Skates (Transport secretary for Wales)proudly told the media that we had wonderful new trains onthe Rumney valley linethat would reduce overcrowding ,it hasn’t happened yet.

No because we've had a global pandemic that has massively delayed introduction and training on the 769s, and the 769 project has been a farce from the start, hit by multiple engineering problems, delaying the project by years. None of those things are anything to do with Ken Skates, who is no longer a Welsh Government minister anyway.
The brand new Stadler trains that will eventually replace the current trains on the Rhymney line are currently being built.

 

[Optom1]

Agreed Ken Skates has moved on.My concern is that with the unreliable 4 car 769’s being replacedby 2 car150’s,often in the evening peak hours,is there a plan to reduce overcrowding until the Sdadler’s appear in several years time?If there is a plan at what level are decisions being made?Four 769’s were in Canton at 17.00 today,it is sad that 16 much needed coaches cannot be Utilised.

 

[Caaardiff]

Agreed Ken Skates has moved on.My concern is that with the unreliable 4 car 769’s being replacedby 2 car150’s,often in the evening peak hours,is there a plan to reduce overcrowding until the Sdadler’s appear in several years time?If there is a plan at what level are decisions being made?Four 769’s were in Canton at 17.00 today,it is sad that 16 much needed coaches cannot be Utilised.

And you think Ken Skates is the one to come up with a contingency?
The only available contingency is the one you've already mentioned. 150s covering. There's few other options available at the moment.

 

[Dai Corner]

And you think Ken Skates is the one to come up with a contingency?
The only available contingency is the one you've already mentioned. 150s covering. There's few other options available at the moment.

One has to wonder why Ken Skates is no longer the Minister in charge of the railways. Why won't he be around to see through his plans for what he said would be a "world class, transformative" Metro and fleet renewal in the rest of Wales come. Has he lost confidence in the ability to deliver these or has Mark Drakeford lost confidence in him?

 

[Caaardiff]

One has to wonder why Ken Skates is no longer the Minister in charge of the railways. Why won't he be around to see through his plans for what he said would be a "world class, transformative" Metro and fleet renewal in the rest of Wales come. Has he lost confidence in the ability to deliver these or has Mark Drakeford lost confidence in him?

The plans are still going ahead?
If anything they've been expanded since original plans were announced.

 

[Dai Corner]

The plans are still going ahead?
If anything they've been expanded since original plans were announced.

My remark was about the ability to actually deliver on time, on budget and in full. But we're getting off-topic for this thread.

 

[wobman]

To be fair though (and I am absolutely not a Grayling apologist) Grayling was led by Whitehall and Porterbrook. If they told him these contraptions worked, who was he to disagree with them ?

In my view it is Porterbrook who have let the industry down with a protracted conversion and some very lacklustre testing and tweaking. In my view Porterbrook and Wabtec should have taken a pair of 769s to a recognised test track like Asfordby and given them a good thrashing, including the power changes for AC and DC. It is a little strange that even the simplest TfW DEMU version of the 769 - without any AC or DC inputs, is struggling to deliver reliability, so it is unsurprising that Northern and GWR are having their isssues too.

Just look at the reliability issues with the 230 Demus on the borderlands, it's an industry problem

 

[wobman]

The plans are still going ahead?
If anything they've been expanded since original plans were announced.

It's the so called railway consultants that have created these issues, the 769 and 230 projects have not delivered at all. Both massively over budget and very late, neither are delivering what they were meant to

Nobody ever asks traincrew in these plans and as a result the industry never learns from its mistakes.

 

[Cardiff123]

One has to wonder why Ken Skates is no longer the Minister in charge of the railways. Why won't he be around to see through his plans for what he said would be a "world class, transformative" Metro and fleet renewal in the rest of Wales come. Has he lost confidence in the ability to deliver these or has Mark Drakeford lost confidence in him?

Or maybe after 8 years as a minister in Welsh Govt in a high profile and demanding position, Ken Skates wanted to step down for personal reasons? (which is the actual reason why he stood down)

My remark was about the ability to actually deliver on time, on budget and in full. But we're getting off-topic for this thread.

And as has been said, plans have not changed. Any delay has been caused by living through a global pandemic over the last 16 months and repeated lockdowns. And initially, because the DfT repeatedly delayed the handover of the Core Valley Lines to Welsh Govt, delaying the handover from the originally planned date of September 2019 to 31st March 2020.

Back on topic, neither Ken Skates in his previous role, or Welsh Govt, or TfW themselves, have had absolutely anything to do with the farce and failiure of the 769 project to deliver on the high expectations that it promised 4 years ago. Despite this, I think TfW have done their best to try to mitigate the failiures of the 769 project by initially hiring in the 37s+Mk2s, and recently bringing in as many extra 153s as they can, and of course by buying outright more Mk4's for elsewhere on the network. TfW have gone above and beyond the original franchise commitments from 2018.

 

[Paul Dancey]

Had my first train journey since the start of the pandemic yesterday. An out and return from Penarth to Barry. Three 150s, one of which had been refurbed and was very smart and a 769. The final leg from cardiff to Penarth, was the 769 (002). Had a nice open feel inside, and seemed quieter than the 150s, but boy was it slow. I don't know if the performance of 002 is typical, but it certainly seemed to be struggling to pull away uphill from Dingle Road towards Penarth. Even the Pacers used to take that in their stride, provided both engines were working.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Back on topic, neither Ken Skates in his previous role, or Welsh Govt, or TfW themselves, have had absolutely anything to do with the farce and failiure of the 769 project to deliver on the high expectations that it promised 4 years ago. Despite this, I think TfW have done their best to try to mitigate the failiures of the 769 project by initially hiring in the 37s+Mk2s, and recently bringing in as many extra 153s as they can, and of course by buying outright more Mk4's for elsewhere on the network. TfW have gone above and beyond the original franchise commitments from 2018.

I disagree with you on the class 769 based on what I fathom out.
Northern were the first TOC to receive 769s from Porterbrook, and AFAIK they were delivered to the Northern depot at Allerton where ROG were employed to FFR them and make them ready for traffic.

TfW ordered some, and subsequently increased the order, but it appears to me (and please correct me if I am wrong) it was left to TfW (customer) to do the FFR and even to relivery them in their own Pullman sheds. So ROG hauled the first few to Cardiff then delivered the balance by road.

At that point I am left massively wondering. Why would you fit diesel engines to a 319, to make it effectively a 2nd generation 150, but then haul it to and from your customer, or even take it by lorry. 150s are regularly driven under own power to and from works visits. In addition, you have to have a class 37 T Bird based at Rhymney all the while you are trying to run 769s.

Seeing as GWR at Reading and Northern at Allerton don't seem to have class 37s manned up in anticipation of failures, that suggests to me that the TfW contract with Porterbrook is substantially different to the former two TOCs. Was it a cheaper deal - a bit like a cheaper insurance deal with a massive excess ?. Were TfW temted by the real economy of acquiring some 769s with the basic service contract, rather than one a little more relevant to the reliabiiity of the units.

 

[Fincra5]

I disagree with you on the class 769 based on what I fathom out.
Northern were the first TOC to receive 769s from Porterbrook, and AFAIK they were delivered to the Northern depot at Allerton where ROG were employed to FFR them and make them ready for traffic.

TfW ordered some, and subsequently increased the order, but it appears to me (and please correct me if I am wrong) it was left to TfW (customer) to do the FFR and even to relivery them in their own Pullman sheds. So ROG hauled the first few to Cardiff then delivered the balance by road.

At that point I am left massively wondering. Why would you fit diesel engines to a 319, to make it effectively a 2nd generation 150, but then haul it to and from your customer, or even take it by lorry. 150s are regularly driven under own power to and from works visits. In addition, you have to have a class 37 T Bird based at Rhymney all the while you are trying to run 769s.

Seeing as GWR at Reading and Northern at Allerton don't seem to have class 37s manned up in anticipation of failures, that suggests to me that the TfW contract with Porterbrook is substantially different to the former two TOCs. Was it a cheaper deal - a bit like a cheaper insurance deal with a massive excess ?. Were TfW temted by the real economy of acquiring some 769s with the basic service contract, rather than one a little more relevant to the reliabiiity of the units.

Out of Gauge somewhere, thats why.

 

[PHILIPE]

Out of Gauge somewhere, thats why.

Moseley Tunnel on the Camp Hill line

 

[craigybagel]

Unlike GWR and Northern, TfW already had a load of drivers based at Rhymney who signed 37s

 

[158722]

Has there been any progress with 769426? Last reported moving from Cardiff back to Brush in April, but with one driving car from 319374 (77342) in the formation, in place of 77485.

 

[Wolfie]

I agree. The responsibility for this fiasco lays firmly with the DfT, not with TfW or ATW before them. The Pacers might have been a bit crap but at least they achieved the primary objective of getting from A to B without conking out. Yes they had their moments but usually isolating all safety systems would get them moving empty to depot.

My understanding is that the railways are devolved in Wales. As such Grayling had no direct sway there. However, in reality it would have been a political non-starter for the Welsh Government to keep types of train in service (if they did the mods or got a waiver for DDA issues) that the UK Government had publicly said were no longer good enough for England. The 769s were supposed to be a short-term solution to address the consequences of that. However, the programme seems to have been less than successful thus far.

 

[Dai Corner]

My understanding is that the railways are devolved in Wales. As such Grayling had no direct sway there. However, in reality it would have been a political non-starter for the Welsh Government to keep types of train in service that the UK Government had publicly said were no longer good enough for England. The 769s were supposed to be a short-term solution to address the consequences of that. However, the programme seems to have been less than successful thus far.

The Welsh Government had to apply to the UK Government's Department for Transport for a derogation to allow Pacers to operate after 31 Dec 2019. That was granted. The same happened at the end of 2020 to allow them to continue until the end of May this year.

Whether the Welsh Government asked again last month and were refused or didn't ask we don't know.

Off topic for this thread (sorry) so any further discussion should really be elsewhere.