Transport for Wales Class 230

[TheSel]

... The biggest issue isn’t what they have cost in terms of their Maintenance or purchasing cost but what they have done to the lines passenger base. It may never totally recover.

And if that view prevails, then the business case for a thirty minute service, and the potential expansion of Merseyrail BEMUs to the line is seriously undermined.

 

[L401CJF]

They seem to be behaving much better lately. There was talk recently of bringing a 2nd one out, and I believe the midday swop is intended to go, possibly at the next timetable change but not 100% sure and heard nothing in stone.

There have been instances in recent months were 2x230s have been out in the morning due to unavailability of 197s.

Is it the case that the timetable is the problem and should be geared accordingly to the motive power in general service at this particular moment in time.

The timetable has always been useless for as long as I can remember, the 150s were consistently late (as were the 230s on the old times) and the 153s were taken off for a reason about 15 years ago.

They did actually look at bringing 153s back to displace 150s on the line when the 230s wernt ready in recent years but it was ruled out pretty quickly after struggling with timing runs, they also struggle to get up the gradients particularly when wet.

I've not worked a 197 down here yet, I have worked multiple 230s on the new timetable though, certainly takes some getting used to having to keep checking the time and waiting due to early running! So used to running late on the line it's natural to just bang open bang closed get gone!

 

[Dan G]

On the old timings it was suggested that 230s that became late weren't being driven hard enough by drivers who for whatever reason weren't using the full performance available. The drivers who did kept to time.

 

[Lurcheroo]

On the old timings it was suggested that 230s that became late weren't being driven hard enough by drivers who for whatever reason weren't using the full performance available. The drivers who did kept to time.

A drivers main priority isn’t too keep time but to drive in a safe manner. Most drivers will get up to speed pretty sharpish as theres not much risk, braking is where the big differences come in. If a driver has a station over run or a SPAD (signal Passed At Danger) then it’s on their license. Losing 10 minutes isn’t.

There are lots of factors and the Bidston line can be very slippy.

And if that view prevails, then the business case for a thirty minute service, and the potential expansion of Merseyrail BEMUs to the line is seriously undermined.

Putting a reliable 30 minutes service in place is about the best chance it has of a good recovery. But an unreliable 30 minute service will be far worse than a reliable 45 minute service.

Not sure the 777’s have got the range to make the full round trip ?

 

[sansyy]

A drivers main priority isn’t too keep time but to drive in a safe manner. Most drivers will get up to speed pretty sharpish as theres not much risk, braking is where the big differences come in. If a driver has a station over run or a SPAD (signal Passed At Danger) then it’s on their license. Losing 10 minutes isn’t.

There are lots of factors and the Bidston line can be very slippy.


Putting a reliable 30 minutes service in place is about the best chance it has of a good recovery. But an unreliable 30 minute service will be far worse than a reliable 45 minute service.

Not sure the 777’s have got the range to make the full round trip ?

Heard talk that the 777s will have enough if recharged at Wrexham which is most likely the realistic scenario. 230s are coming back but don’t keep your hopes high the weather keeps those batteries cool for now! Summer will tell if they’ve properly maintained them.

 

[anthony263]

A drivers main priority isn’t too keep time but to drive in a safe manner. Most drivers will get up to speed pretty sharpish as theres not much risk, braking is where the big differences come in. If a driver has a station over run or a SPAD (signal Passed At Danger) then it’s on their license. Losing 10 minutes isn’t.

There are lots of factors and the Bidston line can be very slippy.


Putting a reliable 30 minutes service in place is about the best chance it has of a good recovery. But an unreliable 30 minute service will be far worse than a reliable 45 minute service.

Not sure the 777’s have got the range to make the full round trip ?

Think they said the 777s wouldn't have enough range and need a section or two of 3rd rail to recharge.

Dont forget tfw proposed additional class 230s for the Swansea metro particularly tye Pontardulais to Swansea service via the SDL and Neath

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Dont forget tfw proposed additional class 230s for the Swansea metro particularly tye Pontardulais to Swansea service via the SDL and Neath

Where are the Class 230 units referred to above coming from?

 

[Western 52]

Where are the Class 230 units referred to above coming from?

I was going to ask the same question. The 5 sets they have struggle to cover 1 diagram between them!

 

[Lurcheroo]

Heard talk that the 777s will have enough if recharged at Wrexham which is most likely the realistic scenario. 230s are coming back but don’t keep your hopes high the weather keeps those batteries cool for now! Summer will tell if they’ve properly maintained them.

Not sure how they will be recharged at Wrexham as it stands. Or how long they would need to be there to have sufficient charge to get all the way back (plus a good reserve should there be issues on the line that might delay them).

Summer will be a new test all together for them.

Where are the Class 230 units referred to above coming from?

I was going to ask the same question. The 5 sets they have struggle to cover 1 diagram between them!

I think the plan was to get more for the Swansea metro. That is no longer possible and even if it was, I couldn’t see TFW having any motivation to get more than the 5 that they have.

 

[TheSel]

Heard talk that the 777s will have enough if recharged at Wrexham which is most likely the realistic scenario. 230s are coming back but don’t keep your hopes high the weather keeps those batteries cool for now! Summer will tell if they’ve properly maintained them.

Ah yes, summer, with not only the temperature increasing, but also the pollen returning. Aaaacchhhoooooo !!

 

[TDK]

On the old timings it was suggested that 230s that became late weren't being driven hard enough by drivers who for whatever reason weren't using the full performance available. The drivers who did kept to time.

So, have you ever driven a class 230 or any other traction?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So, have you ever driven a class 230 or any other traction?

Have you? I'd like to think you're not suggesting someone cannot be right about what they've heard unless they're a driver themselves. Not when you don't know yet where the aforementioned member has got their information from?

 

[TDK]

Have you? I'd like to think you're not suggesting someone cannot be right about what they've heard unless they're a driver themselves. Not when you don't know yet where the aforementioned member has got their information from?

I drove trains for 23 years, I remember the press release from TFW by another person who has no driving experience, it's easy for these managers to err the blame onto drivers when in fact it's nothing to do with the driving style, I can, by my own experience driving trains, say the quote is completely incorrect.

 

[L401CJF]

I drove trains for 23 years, I remember the press release from TFW by another person who has no driving experience, it's easy for these managers to err the blame onto drivers when in fact it's nothing to do with the driving style, I can, by my own experience driving trains, say the quote is completely incorrect.

Guard here who worked the 230s very often in their early days on this line. Can confirm driving style was partly to blame as were slow guards. I'm told 230s drive completely differently to anything else the Chester/Shrewsbury drivers are used to driving. The drivers were extremely cautious braking, the regen braking on a 230 apparently behaves very differently to the brakes our drivers are typically used to on DMUs, and the stopping has to be very precise due to short platforms. Guards were taking a while to get used to them as the door panels are a different layout to everything else (and even the opposite way round/mirrored depending which doors you use). I believe the rhetoric was pushed somewhat to try and cover up the poor reliability, however it was certainly a factor.

Now most crew are trained and used to working them this is generally no longer an issue.

 

[simple simon]

I was in Merseyside today to see these 230s, the 777s and 507001.

It was very difficult at Bidston. Not just with the rain on my camera lens but two 230 trains at the same time - I did not know which way to point my camera as the island platform was too wide for decent views of them both at the same time!

Then the guard of the train enterimg service said I had 2 minutes if I wanted to look inside .... I took up her offer!

I think they were Nos. 230 007 and 230 008 - will confirm later; right now am on late running 18:43 LIV - EUS (the station stop at Crewe was prolonged)

 

[TDK]

Guard here who worked the 230s very often in their early days on this line. Can confirm driving style was partly to blame as were slow guards. I'm told 230s drive completely differently to anything else the Chester/Shrewsbury drivers are used to driving. The drivers were extremely cautious braking, the regen braking on a 230 apparently behaves very differently to the brakes our drivers are typically used to on DMUs, and the stopping has to be very precise due to short platforms. Guards were taking a while to get used to them as the door panels are a different layout to everything else (and even the opposite way round/mirrored depending which doors you use). I believe the rhetoric was pushed somewhat to try and cover up the poor reliability, however it was certainly a factor.

Now most crew are trained and used to working them this is generally no longer an issue.

So adding 5 minutes to the journey time each way isn't a factor on punctuality now? Originally the timings of 57 minutes was for the old, slow 150's that managed to generally maintain these timings, with a 230 the acceleration blows a 150 away so should have easily maintained timings even with cautious braking. The line has been abysmal since the 230's entered service, they need 2 units to maintain 1 unit diagram, the choice of taking on these units was a huge mistake, the batteries are now up to life expectancy so will need replacing at a huge cost yet again when the WG has just announced a £600m deficit so are cutting critical services to bolster TFW and the NHS. Sorry, but I don't buy this propaganda delivered by TFW management partially blaming the train crew for their inadequacies. The only suitable unit on this route performance wise at the original 57 minute timings are the 150's.

 

[L401CJF]

So adding 5 minutes to the journey time each way isn't a factor on punctuality now? Originally the timings of 57 minutes was for the old, slow 150's that managed to generally maintain these timings, with a 230 the acceleration blows a 150 away so should have easily maintained timings even with cautious braking. The line has been abysmal since the 230's entered service, they need 2 units to maintain 1 unit diagram, the choice of taking on these units was a huge mistake, the batteries are now up to life expectancy so will need replacing at a huge cost yet again when the WG has just announced a £600m deficit so are cutting critical services to bolster TFW and the NHS. Sorry, but I don't buy this propaganda delivered by TFW management partially blaming the train crew for their inadequacies. The only suitable unit on this route performance wise at the original 57 minute timings are the 150's.

Not saying crews were entirely to blame, but in the early months it certainly had to be factored in. The 150s would keep to time vaguely if you had a very quick guard and a driver who was really giving it some.

I said it a few times on the original thread, as I was one of the few 230 trained guards at the time, and there were so few 230 trained drivers, those who were trained seemed to work them all the time. I got used to the 230 quickly, as did the more regular 230 drivers. When together for a few trips, we would keep it to time as the driver knew how the trains handled really well. As soon as they changed over for the 2nd trip to a driver not as familiar, bang - 10mins down after a round trip. After a round trip with the regular drivers you could really feel the difference when a 230 newbie got in the seat. Much more cautious accelerating, much more cautious braking.

The 150s behave better under slippy conditions whereas on a 230 even the slightest drizzle will cause it to slip due to its lightweight design. With the likes of Buckley and Heswall the driver has no room for error stopping on a 230 whereas on a shorter 150 they have a bit off play.

The old timetable was never any good, it was like that purely to avoid adding the costs involved with a 3rd unit in play. The new timetable helps massively.

I'm not in anyway saying the 230s havnt been to blame, they have, but lack of crew familiarity really played a part in the early months. Not the case now. Hopefully we can see more of them rolled out to send the 197s back on the mainline where they belong.

 

[simple simon]

I was in Merseyside today to see these 230s, the 777s and 507001.

It was very difficult at Bidston. Not just with the rain on my camera lens but two 230 trains at the same time - I did not know which way to point my camera as the island platform was too wide for decent views of them both at the same time!

Then the guard of the train enterimg service said I had 2 minutes if I wanted to look inside .... I took up her offer!

I think they were Nos. 230 007 and 230 008 - will confirm later; right now am on late running 18:43 LIV - EUS (the station stop at Crewe was prolonged)

I checked Real Time Trains - 230 008 arrived a whopping 7 minutes early. However as this its lat passenger journey of the day so its unlikely that any passengers were upset.

 

[anthony263]

I checked Real Time Trains - 230 008 arrived a whopping 7 minutes early. However as this its lat passenger journey of the day so its unlikely that any passengers were upset.

Should have got a selfie

 

[L401CJF]

I checked Real Time Trains - 230 008 arrived a whopping 7 minutes early. However as this its lat passenger journey of the day so its unlikely that any passengers were upset.

That's the one that's timed to wait outside Bidston for 10mins or so due to conflicting Merseyrail services, having a look on RTT it appears the Liverpool bound service its pathed to follow (2W27) was 5 late so that was able to sneak through early.

 

[simple simon]

That's the one that's timed to wait outside Bidston for 10mins or so due to conflicting Merseyrail services, having a look on RTT it appears the Liverpool bound service its pathed to follow (2W27) was 5 late so that was able to sneak through early.

A 10 minute wait to allow a train that the passengers might prefer to catch (for onward travel) is crazy.

Should have got a selfie

LOL erm, yes but I'd rather film the trains than myself!

I had several cameras with me and have put eight photos / video still images on Twitter.

I've also added them to this message - apologies but the blob on 230 008 arriving at the station is rainwater.

The internal photos were very hurried (as explained in an earlier message) but I think I filmed enough to show the general ambience. People who knew these trains when they were in London will recognise some features - but not everything - - especially not the inter-carriage gangways which I think are new on these trains..

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Noting that the Class 230 are affected by different types of weather patterns, I do wonder which country would be the least problem-causing to those units?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Noting that the Class 230 are affected by different types of weather patterns, I do wonder which country would be the least problem-causing to those units?

Bottom of the North Atlantic maybe ?
Seriously no actually. They might be better off in Henry Posner III's domain in Pennsylvaniaas pop up metro cars

 

[Northerngirl]

A 10 minute wait to allow a train that the passengers might prefer to catch (for onward travel) is crazy.


LOL erm, yes but I'd rather film the trains than myself!

I had several cameras with me and have put eight photos / video still images on Twitter.

I've also added them to this message - apologies but the blob on 230 008 arriving at the station is rainwater.

The internal photos were very hurried (as explained in an earlier message) but I think I filmed enough to show the general ambience. People who knew these trains when they were in London will recognise some features - but not everything - - especially not the inter-carriage gangways which I think are new on these trains..

Those windows look very different to the sets I've been in, is that some kind of upgrade

 

[L401CJF]

Those windows look very different to the sets I've been in, is that some kind of upgrade

I heard they were fitting some hoppers where possible as the AC isn't great in summer months. Clearly true!

 

[Northerngirl]

Just got a couple of my photos from December, definitely a change to the windows

I heard they were fitting some hoppers where possible as the AC isn't great in summer months. Clearly true!

Ahh interesting, must be the only new trains with opening windows fitted.

 

[Cambrian359]

I heard they were fitting some hoppers where possible as the AC isn't great in summer months. Clearly true!

Would windows being used instead of AC put less strain on the batteries and ease battery over heating problems in summer? Or am I on the wrong track!

 

[OutdoorM]

Should have got a selfie

I checked Real Time Trains - 230 008 arrived a whopping 7 minutes early. However as this its lat passenger journey of the day so its unlikely that any passengers were upset.

I nearly got caught out the other day, the 0745 to Liverpool from Heswall arrived and left Heswall at 0741

Its great that the trains are more reliable than last year, but the 45 minute (ISH) frequency is still a royal pain in the posterior when coming home from Liverpool.

As for the 230's, I am still more frequently on the 197's, and to be honest although the service has generally been as per timetable, I prefer it when a 197 turns up - they are just nicer places to be

 

[sansyy]

Does anyone know what this beeping is after the doors shut on the 230s?

Unable to send a video of it, 22mb is too large for the forum!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Does anyone know what this beeping is after the doors shut on the 230s?

Unable to send a video of it, 22mb is too large for the forum!

Any beeping after the doors shut is likely to be driver-guard communication signals, doors closed, proceed.