Transport for Wales Class 230

[FD99]

Ahh ok that’s interesting!

From driving them, do you think (assuming that the modifications are successful) that the 230’s could reliably keep to a timetable for a service every 30 minutes ?

Again assuming no other issues e.g having to drive defensively in low adhesion season.

I can only go from last years driving and quite frankly they are the worst unit I’ve ever driven (out of 6) in my life. I’ve never put a train into full emergency and gained speed but I did with a 230 (I went from 15mph to 25mph during a brake test…… still managed to stop at the station).
Every 30 minutes is impossible right now, we need at LEAST two extra signal sections and line speed increases to get to there. The 45 minute timetable was done with a lot of hard work from a very experienced ex virgin/avanti planner than now works for us as a guard and others. It just about works now, we desperately need funding and improvements on the line. It will only get busier in the next few years and now is the time to sort it. But I fear nothing will get done until it’s too late. Whilst I love driving the 230’s, they need scrapping asap and just stick to 197’s

 

[Invincible]

What really annoys me about geo-fencing is that it was designed to keep noise pollution down in built up areas. Then they whacked an air raid siren on the doors when they close!

Thanks for your insight on the 230s and hope investment on the line progresses.

But isn't hybrid operation and geo fencing about reducing diesel carbon exhaust pollution, especially using battery power during acceleration in stations, rather than noise pollution?

 

[Lurcheroo]

I can only go from last years driving and quite frankly they are the worst unit I’ve ever driven (out of 6) in my life. I’ve never put a train into full emergency and gained speed but I did with a 230 (I went from 15mph to 25mph during a brake test…… still managed to stop at the station).
Every 30 minutes is impossible right now, we need at LEAST two extra signal sections and line speed increases to get to there. The 45 minute timetable was done with a lot of hard work from a very experienced ex virgin/avanti planner than now works for us as a guard and others. It just about works now, we desperately need funding and improvements on the line. It will only get busier in the next few years and now is the time to sort it. But I fear nothing will get done until it’s too late. Whilst I love driving the 230’s, they need scrapping asap and just stick to 197’s

Oh wow that’s very interesting!

Well I hope the SLT and ELT are very grateful to them for making it work as it is.

Yes I have read that NR report about the line and the work that needs doing for a given service pattern.

Well it certainly seems like they’re commuting to them for now. I guess we shall see what the future brings.

 

[FD99]

Thanks for your insight on the 230s and hope investment on the line progresses.

But isn't hybrid operation and geo fencing about reducing diesel carbon exhaust pollution, especially using battery power during acceleration in stations, rather than noise pollution?

I’m sure that is what geo fencing is for in general. But I distinctly recall the press release about the 230s stating they would be geo fenced for noise pollution.

 

[CaramellDansen]

It's fascinating that the hybrid power system is being used to decrease noise pollution and not environmental pollution! I would have figured they would have set it up so the genset usually runs at a medium pace, charging the batteries to charge between stations, storing that power and from regen braking (when slowing at stations) to then release all of that power as it pulls away from the station. This would mean there are no peaks in the sound produced as the train pulls off, and a greater level of power output could be achieved for a short time since the additional power could be taken from the batteries and not the genset, allowing for a less powerful but more efficient generation of power... at least, that's how I'd do it! I'm completely fine with being told I'm wrong lol

 

[Northerngirl]

They certainly need help with noise pollution, i live about 2km from the line and the howling of the motors when they slow is like nothing else I've ever heard that far away, must be a pain for people closer buy

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They certainly need help with noise pollution, i live about 2km from the line and the howling of the motors when they slow is like nothing else I've ever heard that far away, must be a pain for people closer buy

Yet another to add to the long list of iniquities of the Class 230 units...

 

[CaramellDansen]

They certainly need help with noise pollution, i live about 2km from the line and the howling of the motors when they slow is like nothing else I've ever heard that far away, must be a pain for people closer buy

It's that bad?! Kinell. I live 300m from a diesel-served line and the locos are always quieter than the cars on the roads, even in low traffic... That's rough.

I hope people don't take away from this that "unit conversion is bad forever and ever" because the 230s really could have been something with a bit more work and thought (and money?) behind them.
I really do wonder if the GWR-style fast charge would have been a better option for the Borderlands line (in the short term)...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's that bad?! Kinell. I live 300m from a diesel-served line and the locos are always quieter than the cars on the roads, even in low traffic... That's rough.

Is there not a wide difference operationally-wise between the Class 230 units and those modes of traction on the diesel-served line near to your home area?

 

[simonmpoulton]

Just a thought but if the line were actually to get some investment and get electrified by some means would the 777's be able to keep to a 30 minute timetable assuming operations were handed over to Merseyrail?

The 230's are ok trains from a passenger perspective but they are definitely noisier than a 197 and that air siren for the doors doesn't help! Not to mention the clunky doors which make quite a noise when they are opening/closing!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just a thought but if the line were actually to get some investment and get electrified by some means would the 777's be able to keep to a 30 minute timetable assuming operations were handed over to Merseyrail.

Just how far down the line of priorities for electrification, would TfW (or Merseyrail) have the line in question? Have any costings been done so far to give a figure for all the required works needed to achieve this particular aspiration?

 

[Invincible]

I’m sure that is what geo fencing is for in general. But I distinctly recall the press release about the 230s stating they would be geo fenced for noise pollution.

Was it

How our new trains help tackle climate change

The introduction of our new fleet of trains and tram-trains will completely transform the experience of customers who travel with us throughout Wales and the borders. However, they will also provide a major step change in our plans to decarbonise the transport network and become a more...

news.tfw.wales

 

[CaramellDansen]

Is there not a wide difference operationally-wise between the Class 230 units and those modes of traction on the diesel-served line near to your home area?

Well, most pass straight through. Maybe that means there's less engine noise, or maybe factors like ambient noise level (mostly from cars, drowning out the train engine noise) or foliage (to absorb the sound waves) play a part...
Outside of that, I'm not sure what you mean by "operationally". If you mean classes, it's mostly 158s and 195s.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Just how far down the line of priorities for electrification, would TfW (or Merseyrail) have the line in question? Have any costings been done so far to give a figure for all the required works needed to achieve this particular aspiration?

I think even if TFW or Mersey rail or even NR wanted to electrify it, it would not be permitted. There is a no-go on any new 3rd rail hence the reason for battery 777’s.

Well, most pass straight through. Maybe that means there's less engine noise, or maybe factors like ambient noise level (mostly from cars, drowning out the train engine noise) or foliage (to absorb the sound waves) play a part...
Outside of that, I'm not sure what you mean by "operationally". If you mean classes, it's mostly 158s and 195s.

Perhaps it is an area where there is never much need to accelerate or brake. Where as someone living near a station will hear more of trains accelerating.
I live just off to one side (the up side) of a station and slightly up a hill. The trains arriving in the down direction are barely noticeable. The trains leaving in the up direction are somewhat noticeable. These are 158’s only.

If a class 97 (37) goes through then I always know about it regardless of direction.

 

[simonmpoulton]

I think even if TFW or Mersey rail or even NR wanted to electrify it, it would not be permitted. There is a no-go on any new 3rd rail hence the reason for battery 777’s.

That's odd you say that as Network Rail's website clearly states they are still looking at ways to expand the third rail network into the future - it states battery operation as one option but also gives complete new network and infill options. Although if I am not very much mistaken arent the 777's capable of being quickly converted to OHLE operation as well?

 

[childwallblues]

Just a thought but if the line were actually to get some investment and get electrified by some means would the 777's be able to keep to a 30 minute timetable assuming operations were handed over to Merseyrail?

The 230's are ok trains from a passenger perspective but they are definitely noisier than a 197 and that air siren for the doors doesn't help! Not to mention the clunky doors which make quite a noise when they are opening/closing!

350s have "clunkier" doors than a 230!

 

[Lurcheroo]

That's odd you say that as Network Rail's website clearly states they are still looking at ways to expand the third rail network into the future - it states battery operation as one option but also gives complete new network and infill options. Although if I am not very much mistaken arent the 777's capable of being quickly converted to OHLE operation as well?

Yeah I think they want some infill bits but the ORR won’t accept as they say 3rd rail is too dangerous.

Not sure in the 777’s in that regard sorry.

This article has info (I’ve not read it all), link:

The third protocol

In April 2019 I wrote ‘Third degree murder’, about the Office of Rail and Road’s effective ban on extending the third rail network...

www.modernrailways.com

 

[390112A]

Although if I am not very much mistaken arent the 777's capable of being quickly converted to OHLE operation as well?

The class 777s are capable of being fitted with a transformer, pantograph and other associated bits for AC OHLE operation. However it has been mentioned as choice between a unit being either
1 Third Rail + Overhead
or
2 Third Rail + Battery.
As apparently battery equipment is fitted in the same space as the OHLE equipment.

I would expect for Bidston - Wrexham option 2 would be used, with a fast charger installed in Wrexham. This would appear to be in the operational capacity of the unit.
Approx 35 mile range for a 27 mile journey.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I would expect for Bidston - Wrexham option 2 would be used, with a fast charger installed in Wrexham. This would appear to be in the operational capacity of the unit.
Approx 35 mile range for a 27 mile journey.

It certainly does beg the question, how long of a turn around would be needed at Wrexham to ensure sufficient charge to get back to the 3rd rail network, and what happens if the inbound service is delayed.

 

[Northerngirl]

It's that bad?! Kinell. I live 300m from a diesel-served line and the locos are always quieter than the cars on the roads, even in low traffic... That's rough.

I hope people don't take away from this that "unit conversion is bad forever and ever" because the 230s really could have been something with a bit more work and thought (and money?) behind them.
I really do wonder if the GWR-style fast charge would have been a better option for the Borderlands line (in the short term)...

It's not 'bad' but it's very noticeable when outside, far more than anything else on the line

 

[CaergwrleKen]

230s are far from quiet in fact whether it’s to do with a modification or not i’m not sure but 230008 was in service yesterday and the engine fans were even louder than normal.

 

[Wyrleybart]

It's fascinating that the hybrid power system is being used to decrease noise pollution and not environmental pollution! I would have figured they would have set it up so the genset usually runs at a medium pace, charging the batteries to charge between stations, storing that power and from regen braking (when slowing at stations) to then release all of that power as it pulls away from the station. This would mean there are no peaks in the sound produced as the train pulls off, and a greater level of power output could be achieved for a short time since the additional power could be taken from the batteries and not the genset, allowing for a less powerful but more efficient generation of power... at least, that's how I'd do it! I'm completely fine with being told I'm wrong lol

I may be wrong but as I understand it the 230s are designed with a battery electric propulsion system. The four gensets (two under each end car) are designed to purely keep the batteries topped up, aided bg regen braking in lieu of brakes. So when the driver is ready they take power from the traction batteries to power the motors. The diesel engines continuously feed the batteries except for when the geo fencing shuts them down and restarts them "geo graphically, but I sense this is not functional at the moment.

Please correct me if my assumption is wrong

 

[CaramellDansen]

I may be wrong but as I understand it the 230s are designed with a battery electric propulsion system. The four gensets (two under each end car) are designed to purely keep the batteries topped up, aided bg regen braking in lieu of brakes. So when the driver is ready they take power from the traction batteries to power the motors. The diesel engines continuously feed the batteries except for when the geo fencing shuts them down and restarts them "geo graphically, but I sense this is not functional at the moment.

Please correct me if my assumption is wrong

It was also my assumption that they worked like this. The only way my suggestion of how I thought they should work is a modification to how the diesel engines run; basically having a variable RPM limiter to maximise efficiency and minimise environmental impact.

 

[FD99]

I may be wrong but as I understand it the 230s are designed with a battery electric propulsion system. The four gensets (two under each end car) are designed to purely keep the batteries topped up, aided bg regen braking in lieu of brakes. So when the driver is ready they take power from the traction batteries to power the motors. The diesel engines continuously feed the batteries except for when the geo fencing shuts them down and restarts them "geo graphically, but I sense this is not functional at the moment.

Please correct me if my assumption is wrong

I’m not the best person ask how they are meant to work. But they are definitely underpowered in the 2 geo-fenced areas and when I’ve switched the engine off to rid the radiators of leaves, they are definitely underpowered. They are great units when the track is good, I genuinely love driving them and I think they’re fantastic for the line. But in leaf fall they are awful. No grip at all. And as the battery ages they will only get worse. But I’m very happy with the progress they’ve made this last year.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Now this Class 230 saga has gone on for as long as it has, it is deserving of a comical Welsh regional folk song written about it that would reflect matters, starting similar to the following:-

"Cosher Bailey had an engine,
It was always needing mending......"

 

[CaramellDansen]

Although if I am not very much mistaken arent the 777's capable of being quickly converted to OHLE operation as well?

Correct, and they bloody well should be. Otherwise Merseyrail will be stuck with the current network we have, which is completely and utterly undersized and outdated... but that's all I'll say on it here.

 

[simonmpoulton]

I spied a 230 pulling into Chester around 5pm today, anyone knows which unit and what it was doing?

 

[Lewisham2221]

I spied a 230 pulling into Chester around 5pm today, anyone knows which unit and what it was doing?

Looks like it was 230 009:

Realtime Trains | 5T09 1555 Birkenhead North E.M.U.D to Crewe T.M.D. (E) | 08/10/2024

Real-time train running information for 5T09 1555 departure from Birkenhead North E.M.U.D to Crewe T.M.D. (E) on 08/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Presumably going for tyre turning

 

[Zontar]

230 006 is apparently ready for service. Has it ever been in service before?

 

[childwallblues]

230 006 is apparently ready for service. Has it ever been in service before?

Not to my knowledge.