Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[Rhydgaled]

Testing or Driver training? Be nice if it was the latter

A general point/question from me regarding any new trains, not specific to 756s, but isn't there a 'chicken & egg' kind of situation here? How do you test a train if you have no drivers competent to work it? I guess the first few drivers have to learn on a simulator, or just learn the theory by reading a manual or something, before being let loose on the real thing. Once you're past that though, surely it would make sense to train more drivers as you go so that more of them are available to carry out testing and therefore get it done quicker?

 

[Woolos 22]

A general point/question from me regarding any new trains, not specific to 756s, but isn't there a 'chicken & egg' kind of situation here? How do you test a train if you have no drivers competent to work it? I guess the first few drivers have to learn on a simulator, or just learn the theory by reading a manual or something, before being let loose on the real thing. Once you're past that though, surely it would make sense to train more drivers as you go so that more of them are available to carry out testing and therefore get it done quicker?

756 fot the mileage test were done by gbf drivers

 

[Peter Sarf]

A general point/question from me regarding any new trains, not specific to 756s, but isn't there a 'chicken & egg' kind of situation here? How do you test a train if you have no drivers competent to work it? I guess the first few drivers have to learn on a simulator, or just learn the theory by reading a manual or something, before being let loose on the real thing. Once you're past that though, surely it would make sense to train more drivers as you go so that more of them are available to carry out testing and therefore get it done quicker?

From what I have seen reported over several threads.

First of all there will be type testing. The first of a new design will tested very thoroughly. Drivers are not necessarily the drivers that will end up driving them day to day. There will be an experienced driver of other traction inevitably supported by quite a few engineers.

Second will be a simpler test of each example (locomotive or unit). Maybe the TOCs own drivers but often completely separate.

Third will be fault free running of each example. A certain amount of miles will need to be clocked up on each unit/locomotive.

Serious training of drivers that will end up using them will most likely happen when there are enough units/locomotives that have got beyond fault free running.

Then the real test - passengers allowed to use them.......

But yes - who trains the trainers that train the rest !.

 

[CapitalStar378]

The 756s must have been mainly sat around in Barry for a couple of years by now. Seems a huge waste of money with OHLE complete on the TAM lines and 150s could be released to other lines to alleviate shortages.

 

[Rhydgaled]

From what I have seen reported over several threads.

First of all there will be type testing. The first of a new design will tested very thoroughly. Drivers are not necessarily the drivers that will end up driving them day to day. There will be an experienced driver of other traction inevitably supported by quite a few engineers.

Second will be a simpler test of each example (locomotive or unit). Maybe the TOCs own drivers but often completely separate.

Third will be fault free running of each example. A certain amount of miles will need to be clocked up on each unit/locomotive.

Serious training of drivers that will end up using them will most likely happen when there are enough units/locomotives that have got beyond fault free running.

My point is, why wait to do that fourth stage (serious training of TOC's own drivers) until the units have completed fault-free running? Why not use the fault-free running outings to also train crews, to get both tasks completed quicker (once you have trainned a few drivers, you can use some of the newly-trainned ones to drive additional runs and hence get the fault-free mileage done quicker too)?

 

[Peter Sarf]

My point is, why wait to do that fourth stage (serious training of TOC's own drivers) until the units have completed fault-free running? Why not use the fault-free running outings to also train crews, to get both tasks completed quicker (once you have trainned a few drivers, you can use some of the newly-trainned ones to drive additional runs and hence get the fault-free mileage done quicker too)?

I think sadly the fear is that if the Fault Free Running takes too long (due to failures) then the drivers knowledge will lapse. If I recall correctly if a driver does not use a certain traction for six months then they are deemed to no longer be competent on it so training was wasted.

This would not be a consideration if TOCs could assume new trains and infrastructure would be ready on time. That seems to not be the case and so a critical path to implementation becomes as thin as possible so as long as possible !.

Of course the class 756 units themselves are in danger of festering and so decaying in sidings even though ready !.

This subject is worthy of a thread of its own if people want to continue it as it applies to more than just the 756s.

EDIT
As per @43096 post below - I should have said you cannot have trainee drivers driving units that the manufacturer is trying to get through Fault Free Running.

 

[MikePJ]

One other reason why things take time is that you're going to start with a train-the-trainer process, taking senior drivers (I forget the proper term for them) who will need to learn to drive the new units themselves and also learn how best to teach their idiosyncrasies to the drivers they'll be training. But you may not have that many of these drivers and they'll need to be covered for their regular duties whilst they're out learning the new units - there's probably a limit to how fast you can do that process because you won't have that many spare drivers. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I strongly suspect that union agreements prevent the use of agency or other hired-in staff to cover ordinary rosters to free up drivers for training, so there's a limit to how fast you can do the training process with the available staff.

 

[Markdvdman]

There is a spate of 4 car 231s running on Merthyr and Aberdare lines today. The 5:26pm I intend catching off Cardiff Central will be 231008 according to realtime trains. However, that is subject to change of course! It looks like they are using the 231s to prep the 756s - so it may well be September for the 756s.....

 

[BillStampy]

There is a spate of 4 car 231s running on Merthyr and Aberdare lines today. The 5:26pm I intend catching off Cardiff Central will be 231008 according to realtime trains. However, that is subject to change of course! It looks like they are using the 231s to prep the 756s - so it may well be September for the 756s.....

Believe the 231 usage on those lines is for the Pontypridd Eisteddfod, not 756 prep. It could also be done that way too, but most likely the former.

 

[43096]

My point is, why wait to do that fourth stage (serious training of TOC's own drivers) until the units have completed fault-free running? Why not use the fault-free running outings to also train crews, to get both tasks completed quicker (once you have trainned a few drivers, you can use some of the newly-trainned ones to drive additional runs and hence get the fault-free mileage done quicker too)?

It’s because the units are not handed over to the TOC until fault free running (FFR) is completed. The manufacturer does not want trainee drivers from the TOC interfering with FFR - it risks a delay to handover as there’s a blame game over the reason for the fault.

 

[Envoy]

Could they be dragging out the introduction of the 756’s because they don’t want the people in the central valleys to get used to these new electric trains and then be downgraded to the Class 398 tram-trains?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Could they be dragging out the introduction of the 756’s because they don’t want the people in the central valleys to get used to these new electric trains and then be downgraded to the Class 398 tram-trains?

They're getting the 231s in the central valleys at the moment anyway, which if anything should be a higher-spec unit from an interior furnishings point of view than the 756s as the 231s were ordered for longer trips. Plus tram-trains with no toilets will in some respects be a downgrade even compared to the class 150s which have been all over the valleys for years.

 

[popeter45]

Just saw a TfW FLIRT in Stratford of all places
Any idea what it's doing here?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Just saw a TfW FLIRT in Stratford of all places
Any idea what it's doing here?

That would be 231 004.

It's being returned to Cardiff after having some work done at Clacton.

Here's the move: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K17269/2024-08-08/detailed

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

That would be 231 004.

It's being returned to Cardiff after having some work done at Clacton.

Here's the move: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K17269/2024-08-08/detailed

Yeah Greater Anglia invested in Clacton quite a bit for their FLIRTs so good to see TfW are using it too

 

[BillStampy]

I believe proper Class 756 Driver Training is underway, with 756116 doing the honours today. 3Z50 to Aberdare and others back and forth. Had a chat to a 231 driver on Sunday, said it only takes a day to convert the drivers. But since there's so many it'll take time to train enough to get them into service. He said the plan is either late September or October.

 

[mcflyrips]

I believe proper Class 756 Driver Training is underway, with 756116 doing the honours today. 3Z50 to Aberdare and others back and forth. Had a chat to a 231 driver on Sunday, said it only takes a day to convert the drivers. But since there's so many it'll take time to train enough to get them into service. He said the plan is either late September or October.

Taken up towards Aberdare yesterday

 

[Gordonman]

Taken up towards Aberdare yesterday

756105 is on the same diagram today

 

[BillStampy]

Can someone who knows better tell me the point of running Class 231s on Empty Runs between Central and Severn Tunnel Junction? Is it simply testing them or driver training in future for the Gloucester/Cheltenham sections? Since now 231001 has gone up there and 231005 is currently running them too!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I believe proper Class 756 Driver Training is underway, with 756116 doing the honours today. 3Z50 to Aberdare and others back and forth. Had a chat to a 231 driver on Sunday, said it only takes a day to convert the drivers. But since there's so many it'll take time to train enough to get them into service. He said the plan is either late September or October.

I’ve never known a TOC slip for timescales quite so awfully as TfW.

 

[BillStampy]

I’ve never known a TOC slip for timescales quite so awfully as TfW.

Certainly dragging it out, I have a feeling the Class 398s will be equally as awful or even worse. "Early 2025" will probably be dragged to Winter 2025 at the current rate of TfW training , not to mention the Cambrian Line!

 

[craigybagel]

I’ve never known a TOC slip for timescales quite so awfully as TfW.

Certainly dragging it out, I have a feeling the Class 398s will be equally as awful or even worse. "Early 2025" will probably be dragged to Winter 2025 at the current rate of TfW training , not to mention the Cambrian Line!

If I may refer you to the threads on this very forum regarding EMR 810s and SWR 701s, neither TfW nor Stadler have a monopoly on projects running behind. Which is not too say the current situation is desirable or acceptable, but TfW hardly have a monopoly on such things.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If I may refer you to the threads on this very forum regarding EMR 810s and SWR 701s, neither TfW nor Stadler have a monopoly on projects running behind. Which is not too say the current situation is desirable or acceptable, but TfW hardly have a monopoly on such things.

One project for each TOC.
- TfW 197s will not work the Cambrian until mid 2025.
- 398s did not enter service in late 2023 as advertised.
- 756s did not enter service in June 2024 as advertised.
- 5 carriage services from Manchester to Swansea did not commence in 2023 or even the first half of 2024.
- “75% of services in 2023 will be new trains” did not happen.
etc etc

 

[Class15]

One project for each TOC.
- TfW 197s will not work the Cambrian until mid 2025.
- 398s did not enter service in late 2023 as advertised.
- 756s did not enter service in June 2024 as advertised.
- 5 carriage services from Manchester to Swansea did not commence in 2023 or even the first half of 2024.
- “75% of services in 2023 will be new trains” did not happen.
etc etc

Yes but for both EMR and SWR the trains mentioned were also the only new-build order. For TfW they haven’t got a 100% flop record as the 231z seem to be okay.

 

[Chris125]

One project for each TOC.
- TfW 197s will not work the Cambrian until mid 2025.
- 398s did not enter service in late 2023 as advertised.
- 756s did not enter service in June 2024 as advertised.
- 5 carriage services from Manchester to Swansea did not commence in 2023 or even the first half of 2024.
- “75% of services in 2023 will be new trains” did not happen.
etc etc

More projects = more to go wrong. If other TOCs were trying to introduce this many new fleets around the same time no doubt they'd be having plenty of issues too.

 

[craigybagel]

One project for each TOC.
- TfW 197s will not work the Cambrian until mid 2025.
- 398s did not enter service in late 2023 as advertised.
- 756s did not enter service in June 2024 as advertised.
- 5 carriage services from Manchester to Swansea did not commence in 2023 or even the first half of 2024.
- “75% of services in 2023 will be new trains” did not happen.
etc etc

More projects = more to go wrong. If other TOCs were trying to introduce this many new fleets around the same time no doubt they'd be having plenty of issues too.

Exactly this. Plus, you could go through every TOC and find that of those that promised some kind of improvements, most will have experienced some kind of delays.

Overall, I think the vast majority of the TfW network is already in a better place than it was on the last day of the previous regime, with more improvements to come. I can think of other TOCs that have only gone downhill since then.

There's a long way to go, and they're not where they're meant to be right now - but sadly it's pretty endemic across the whole industry.

 

[GalaxyDog]

If I may say as an outsider, given the parlous state that Arriva left the Welsh franchise in, followed by Keolis and then the Covid issues, it's a pretty bold move to have taken on as many projects simultaneously as TFW did - and it/s long term thinking. As craigybagel has said, not where things are meant to be right now but a lot of the industry is still somewhat on the backfoot too - but TFW are basically working with the scorched earth that was left and to see that infact, a majority of the network is already in a better state than was - can only bode well for the future all going to plan.

 

[sd0733]

He said the plan is either late September or October.

The current plan is for November for the first ones.

"Early 2025" will probably be dragged to Winter 2025 at the current rate of TfW training

Late 2025 (no exact dates specified at this point) is the current estimate for 398s

AFAIK the lease on some of the 150 fleet has been extended through to July 2026 so that's obviously a realistic expected date to have everything in service.
There's been issues but bringing the new fleets in at the same time as changing ownership of the infrastructure then rebuilding/electrifying vast swathes of that infrastructure was never going to be plain sailing and I think it's been acknowledged fairly publicly that if the plans were done again they'd have been made originally over a much longer period of time.

 

[nigelsporne]

I am relatively new to this thread so I don't know the politics behind everything but can someone please explain in simple terms why it is taking so long to get these units into service. If you went out a bought a new car you wouldn't stick it on the drive for a year or two. The domestic authorities would be on your back from day one. Somebody has forked out millions on these new units and surely wants to see a return on their investment. Why are they not banging heads together? I know TfW are not alone but that's no excuse. The public in Wales deserve better and need to see the 756s and 398s in service without delay.
Apologies for the long rant.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I am relatively new to this thread so I don't know the politics behind everything but can someone please explain in simple terms why it is taking so long to get these units into service. If you went out a bought a new car you wouldn't stick it on the drive for a year or two. The domestic authorities would be on your back from day one. Somebody has forked out millions on these new units and surely wants to see a return on their investment. Why are they not banging heads together? I know TfW are not alone but that's no excuse. The public in Wales deserve better and need to see the 756s and 398s in service without delay.
Apologies for the long rant.

Not really a fair comparison - when you buy a new car, even if it is a new model, that model has been in development for several years, including testing of prototypes on the road - often heavily disguised.

This is essentially the process the 756s and 398s are going through at the moment.