Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[StripeyNick]

I think there is lots of training still to do with the 756s....not just drivers. There's probably quite a bit more to be done with the 398s.......don't forget the depot isn't even finished yet.

All the Flirts did loads of mileage accumulation runs before any training even started so there's probably a bit of that to come for the 398s

 

[Richard Scott]

Not really a fair comparison - when you buy a new car, even if it is a new model, that model has been in development for several years, including testing of prototypes on the road - often heavily disguised.

This is essentially the process the 756s and 398s are going through at the moment.

But in case of a car it's done before it's on sale to a customer so it works when you pick it up from showroom.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Exactly this. Plus, you could go through every TOC and find that of those that promised some kind of improvements, most will have experienced some kind of delays.

Overall, I think the vast majority of the TfW network is already in a better place than it was on the last day of the previous regime, with more improvements to come. I can think of other TOCs that have only gone downhill since then.

There's a long way to go, and they're not where they're meant to be right now - but sadly it's pretty endemic across the whole industry.

In the case of Trans Pennine Express have gone backwards - Dispensing wth new trains.

TfW have arguably bitten off more than they can chew. Perhaps too many new fleets as it would have been easier to introduce fewer new types (more 231s and no 756s *1, hand me down EMUs instead of 398s *2). But when the whole lot was taken over it was a run down mess so in effect TfW had to bite several bullets.

*1 = The 756s are too tempting of course because they justify electrification and they have probably had to wait on that electrification being ready.

*2 = Risk of off topic but connected - Obviously the on-street running aspect of the electrified network would have to be postponed but it looks like this will be the last thing 398s will do anyway. So hand me down EMUs (321s) etc would have bought time for a gentler trial/introduction of a tram-train. I wonder, with hindsight, how tempting 756s would have been but that would have locked out on-street running for a long time. - unless other routes subsequently got electrified. The 756s aren't cheap though.

Overall I would say TfW (and the Cardiff Metro) are approaching the fruition stage.

No gain without pain.

 

[Dai Corner]

I think there is lots of training still to do with the 756s....not just drivers. There's probably quite a bit more to be done with the 398s.......don't forget the depot isn't even finished yet.

All the Flirts did loads of mileage accumulation runs before any training even started so there's probably a bit of that to come for the 398s

I thought all the relevant train crew already signed 231s and that I'd read that it only took one day's training to add 756s?

 

[Peter Sarf]

But in case of a car it's done before it's on sale to a customer so it works when you pick it up from showroom.

But cars are mass produced and relatively simple compared to a train. No interface with signalling and no driver training (or approval).

However there does need to be a longer period of type testing before more of a type are produced. In the case of the 756s it could be arged that they are fine BUt there is not enough electrified network ready for them yet so it is not worth investing time and reaources in getting them (and staff) ready for action.

I would argue trains have got over complicated and we (in the UK) really should be settling on fewer more established designs. The 231s and 756s are actually arguably that - being based on 755s.

 

[nigelsporne]

There are some very valid points above. I think TfW have perhaps missed a psychological trick here, what may have been better is to hide the new units outside Wales and just use one or two to thoroughly test and gradually introduce as when practicable. A car salesman wouldn't stock up his showroom with untried car he cannot sell!

 

[Anonymous10]

I am relatively new to this thread so I don't know the politics behind everything but can someone please explain in simple terms why it is taking so long to get these units into service. If you went out a bought a new car you wouldn't stick it on the drive for a year or two. The domestic authorities would be on your back from day one. Somebody has forked out millions on these new units and surely wants to see a return on their investment. Why are they not banging heads together? I know TfW are not alone but that's no excuse. The public in Wales deserve better and need to see the 756s and 398s in service without delay.
Apologies for the long rant.

There is a post explaining it just above this one.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I’ve never known a TOC slip for timescales quite so awfully as TfW.

You’ve got to crack a few eggs to make an omelette.

The TFW fleet renewal project was incredibly ambitious from the start and a lot has been out of TFW’s control.

it's a pretty bold move to have taken on as many projects simultaneously as TFW did

Well it was Keolis TFW that took up many of the projects to begin which Welsh GOV TFW inherited and had to work with.

There are some very valid points above. I think TfW have perhaps missed a psychological trick here, what may have been better is to hide the new units outside Wales and just use one or two to thoroughly test and gradually introduce as when practicable. A car salesman wouldn't stock up his showroom with untried car he cannot sell!

I mean no offence, but I think you may be commenting on things you don’t have a huge amount of understanding for.
I’m not sure what your obsession with comparing to cars is but whilst they’re modes of transport, that’s about all they have in common in this regard.

Each and every unit must under going mileage accumulation which must be ‘fault free’ let’s say a unit has to do 500 miles fault free, if a fault happens at mile 458 then the counter is reset back to zero.

There’s so much more to it than just buying a train from manufacturer and then taking it home and driving it.

I thought all the relevant train crew already signed 231s and that I'd read that it only took one day's training to add 756s?

It’s more than just train crew that need training. What about maintenance staff ? I think their training is probably longer than just a day.
Any train crews that sign the 231’s just need a day of training to ‘convert’ the the 756’s but that’s still a long time if you have hundreds to train.

 

[Dai Corner]

It’s more than just train crew that need training. What about maintenance staff ? I think their training is probably longer than just a day.
Any train crews that sign the 231’s just need a day of training to ‘convert’ the the 756’s but that’s still a long time if you have hundreds to train.

Haven't they started training the maintenance staff yet? The units were delivered ages ago. Who maintained them while they were back and forth to Swindon accumulating mileage?

On a general point, TfW must have agreed the original schedules with Keolis Amy who in turn were presumably confident that they could meet them both infrastructure- and rolling stock wise. Poxt-nationisation they find themselves having to take responsibility without being able to blame any problems on the franchisee.

 

[BillStampy]

It’s more than just train crew that need training. What about maintenance staff ? I think their training is probably longer than just a day.
Any train crews that sign the 231’s just need a day of training to ‘convert’ the the 756’s but that’s still a long time if you have hundreds to train.

I'd think maintenance staff would've already been trained to keep them in good condition at Barry and Canton, especially during their Swindon mileage runs.

Yes, the conversion does take a day, but as you've stated, hundreds need to be trained before any can enter full service.
Believe 4 or 5 days have gone by with the 756 Aberdare runs running, but still plenty to go.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Haven't they started training the maintenance staff yet? The units were delivered ages ago. Who maintained them while they were back and forth to Swindon accumulating mileage?

On a general point, TfW must have agreed the original schedules with Keolis Amy who in turn were presumably confident that they could meet them both infrastructure- and rolling stock wise. Poxt-nationisation they find themselves having to take responsibility without being able to blame any problems on the franchisee.

Companies are always making over optimistic promises to gain advantage. They are not usually wrong but are as optimistic as possible meaning no room for unexpected (but inevitable) problems. In this case gaining the rights to operate a TOC.

 

[Caaardiff]

TFW's CEO even admitted himself that the whole ambitious project that TFW/KA promised was too much to do in 5 years. It should have been done over 10. But they were already in too deep to go back on any of those plans. The Valleys lines have been a mess since TFW took over. Shortage of stock, constant engineering works, electrification, Resignalling etc. All of which needed to be done and once complete will be a complete transformation, but has seen a lot of misery for the travelling public.
The 231's were never planned for Valleys, but it was the right decision to get them working on those lines. Capacity on the majority of Valleys services has probably been quite good over the past year or so. It's mainline services that have suffered without having the 231's where they should be and 197's on the routes they were planned for.
The sooner the 756's get in service the better. 2025 will probably be there year where things can settle a little bit across the whole network and overall capacity should be quite good. Then will come the 398 introduction and 197 introductions on the Cambrian.

 

[StripeyNick]

Haven't they started training the maintenance staff yet? The units were delivered ages ago. Who maintained them while they were back and forth to Swindon accumulating mileage?

Those runs were operated by GBRf with Stadler so I suspect that Stadler was doing the maintenance. I don't think they had been accepted by TfW at that point.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Haven't they started training the maintenance staff yet? The units were delivered ages ago. Who maintained them while they were back and forth to Swindon accumulating mileage?

On a general point, TfW must have agreed the original schedules with Keolis Amy who in turn were presumably confident that they could meet them both infrastructure- and rolling stock wise. Poxt-nationisation they find themselves having to take responsibility without being able to blame any problems on the franchisee.

No idea, I’m not involved.
Originally Stadler we’re going to do maintenance but it’s all been brought in house.

Well, no. Originally TFW was being run by KeolisAmey who set the timelines.

Covid happened and they handed it back to the government.
Covid alone ruined any hope of sticking to the ambitious timelines and the welsh government version of TFW.

From what I’ve seen I don’t think the Welsh government have any issue in taking responsibility, they’re just doing what they can with what they have now.

Just as an added point, I’m sure I saw that it is planned for traincrew to move into the Taffs well depot for the May 2025 timetable change, so all getting closer.

The 756’s will be an important step forward for the whole network that can’t come soon enough.

 

[craigybagel]

Just as an added point, I’m sure I saw that it is planned for traincrew to move into the Taffs well depot for the May 2025 timetable change, so all getting closer.

You did indeed, Taffs Well goes live in time for May 2025.

 

[Lurcheroo]

You did indeed, Taffs Well goes live in time for May 2025.

Glad I’m not making it up lol! I had thought perhaps that means that’s when they’re hoping for the 398’s to starting in service but SD has kindly informed us that it’s looking like ‘late’ 2025.

 

[ajay1071]

Yes we all know that the time scales have slipped with TFW, but what are the comparisons, there aren't any I can think of What train operating company has had a programme to replace nearly all of their rolling stock in such a narrow time scale. When you add the great upheaval to create a modern metro system for the future it is understandable that there would be slippage in the time scales. TfW are no exception to the delays, when you consider the likes of the Elizabeth line way over budget and four yesrs late on delivery time, then you have the HS2 fiasco which is a guessing game on completion and final costs, the GWR electrification went over budget was late and did not deliver, due to curtailment/cancellation, what was initially promised. So yes, we can all agree TFW are guilty of mistakes and perhaps over optimistic delivery/scheduling but they are in no way unique.

 

[DLyle44004]

Yes we all know that the time scales have slipped with TFW, but what are the comparisons, there aren't any I can think of What train operating company has had a programme to replace nearly all of their rolling stock in such a narrow time scale. When you add the great upheaval to create a modern metro system for the future it is understandable that there would be slippage in the time scales. TfW are no exception to the delays, when you consider the likes of the Elizabeth line way over budget and four yesrs late on delivery time, then you have the HS2 fiasco which is a guessing game on completion and final costs, the GWR electrification went over budget was late and did not deliver, due to curtailment/cancellation, what was initially promised. So yes, we can all agree TFW are guilty of mistakes and perhaps over optimistic delivery/scheduling but they are in no way unique.

Considering the amount of money TfW has received from the Welsh Government but they continue to mess up (not just with the introduction of the FLIRTs) but in general, I'd say they are pretty unique. The South Wales Metro is in no way a 'modern metro system', it's a couple of new units with a PR scheme to go with them - stuff Wales should have had years ago. It's a bit of a stretch to compare a few dodgy units on the Rhymney Line to two of the largest engineering projects the UK has seen in recent years.

 

[Anonymous10]

Considering the amount of money TfW has received from the Welsh Government but they continue to mess up (not just with the introduction of the FLIRTs) but in general, I'd say they are pretty unique. The South Wales Metro is in no way a 'modern metro system', it's a couple of new units with a PR scheme to go with them - stuff Wales should have had years ago. It's a bit of a stretch to compare a few dodgy units on the Rhymney Line to two of the largest engineering projects the UK has seen in recent years.

I would hardly call the class 231's dodgy, and whilst yes it should have happened long ago Is it wrong for people to be happy that it's happening?

Given you admit that it should have happened long ago and it's common knowledge that welsh railways have been under funded for years, is it not unreasonable for delays to be encountered?

Personally I want the class 756s in service as soon as possible but that relies on a few variables.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I would hardly call the class 231's dodgy, and whilst yes it should have happened long ago Is it wrong for people to be happy that it's happening?

Given you admit that it should have happened long ago and it's common knowledge that welsh railways have been under funded for years, is it not unreasonable for delays to be encountered?

Personally I want the class 756s in service as soon as possible but that relies on a few variables.

Oh no, don’t worry, if @DLyle44004 had been involved in the project they would have known about undocumented utilities that need moving before they dug them up so they could have planned accordingly!

You can’t please some people to be honest.

but they continue to mess up (not just with the introduction of the FLIRTs) but in general

Could you elaborate?

 

[DLyle44004]

Oh no, don’t worry, if @DLyle44004 had been involved in the project they would have known about undocumented utilities that need moving before they dug them up so they could have planned accordingly!

You can’t please some people to be honest.

Don't worry, I wouldn't trust myself anywhere near it either.

Could you elaborate?

Personally I will admit that they have made improvements in recent months and the new units are helping with that, but I'm not of the view that any of the work TfW has done has been exceptional. Give them another 5-10 years and I might be a little more optimistic once a lot of the new schemes within the wider South Wales Metro have fallen into place and are operational, but I still believe that there's a significant culture problem given that they are one of the poorest performing TOCs in multiple criteria (according to the latest Rail User Survey) and lack clarity in their communication to passengers regarding the introduction of new stock on these lines.

 

[ajay1071]

Considering the amount of money TfW has received from the Welsh Government but they continue to mess up (not just with the introduction of the FLIRTs) but in general, I'd say they are pretty unique. The South Wales Metro is in no way a 'modern metro system', it's a couple of new units with a PR scheme to go with them - stuff Wales should have had years ago. It's a bit of a stretch to compare a few dodgy units on the Rhymney Line to two of the largest engineering projects the UK has seen in recent years.

Considering your reply you seem clueless at best. I think if you do your research you will find the investment is far from a few units, the valley lines are having a complete renewal of its rolling stock. When you add all the electrification and station renewals and upgrades it is far from just a few units and cosmetic upgrade as you seem to imply.

 

[Caaardiff]

Don't worry, I wouldn't trust myself anywhere near it either.


Personally I will admit that they have made improvements in recent months and the new units are helping with that, but I'm not of the view that any of the work TfW has done has been exceptional. Give them another 5-10 years and I might be a little more optimistic once a lot of the new schemes within the wider South Wales Metro have fallen into place and are operational, but I still believe that there's a significant culture problem given that they are one of the poorest performing TOCs in multiple criteria (according to the latest Rail User Survey) and lack clarity in their communication to passengers regarding the introduction of new stock on these lines.

Performance over recent years has been very poor, but there has been a marked improvement in 2024.
It will probably take another 1-2 years until the fleet renewal is complete and all the new fleet is in service.
Supposedly the 756's will be in service at the end of this year, which will be another (albeit delayed) milestone complete in a matter of months which will see either more 150's retired or moved to Maesteg/Ebbw Vale services, which in turn will free up 197's for long distance work and extra capacity.
It is no secret that TFW have very much overpromised and under delivered over the past 5 years, but your sensationalism is unfounded, as there is light at the end of the tunnel and things are certainly on the up.

 

[60159]

Posted in the Flirt group on Facebook:

as of 05:20 Saturday 2nd September 2023

756102 10rd
756106 10rd
756103 9rd
756107 9rd
756110 RunRoundRd
756109 RunRoundRd
756004 SkillCentRd
756002 SkillCentRd
756005 SkillCentRd
756006 3rd
756003 4rd
756001 5rd
756007 HRL
.

Hi, back in Walesfor the first time in a year. Just passed Barry. Any possibility of advising what the current ones are.
You were a great help last year.
TOA.

Hi, back in Walesfor the first time in a year. Just passed Barry. Any possibility of advising what the current ones are.
You were a great help last year.
TOA.

TIA! Sorry.

 

[dave6]

Hi, back in Walesfor the first time in a year. Just passed Barry. Any possibility of advising what the current ones are.
You were a great help last year.
TOA.


TIA! Sorry.

Hi
For what it's worth I went to Barry today.
I managed to ID 756006 & 7, 756101/04/10/13/17
There was one further unit in the middle row at the front of the depot.
However at the back of the depot there were 3 rows of units (by far the most I've at this location), sadly I couldn't ID any of them thanks to the pesky 'jungle' growing alongside the tracks.
The depot doors never appear to be open, are there any units inside?
Also is it intended that the depot will provide any maintenance or will it just be a stabling location?

 

[60159]

Hi
For what it's worth I went to Barry today.
I managed to ID 756006 & 7, 756101/04/10/13/17
There was one further unit in the middle row at the front of the depot.
However at the back of the depot there were 3 rows of units (by far the most I've at this location), sadly I couldn't ID any of them thanks to the pesky 'jungle' growing alongside the tracks.
The depot doors never appear to be open, are there any units inside?
Also is it intended that the depot will provide any maintenance or will it just be a stabling location?

Many thanks for that. I managed to id 3 of the 4 visible from the station but couldn’t see the one 2nd nearest the station. Do you remember which one that was?
I agree the /1s but I have 03 and 05.
07 was at Canton yesterday and I thought today.

 

[BillStampy]

Many thanks for that. I managed to id 3 of the 4 visible from the station but couldn’t see the one 2nd nearest the station. Do you remember which one that was?
I agree the /1s but I have 03 and 05.
07 was at Canton yesterday and I thought today.

07 went down with 02 last night I believe on 3Y00

 

[60159]

07 went down with 02 last night I believe on 3Y00

Many thanks.

 

[Gordonman]

756105 756106 and 756115 are on Canton amongst others

 

[StripeyNick]

Hi
For what it's worth I went to Barry today.
I managed to ID 756006 & 7, 756101/04/10/13/17
There was one further unit in the middle row at the front of the depot.
However at the back of the depot there were 3 rows of units (by far the most I've at this location), sadly I couldn't ID any of them thanks to the pesky 'jungle' growing alongside the tracks.
The depot doors never appear to be open, are there any units inside?
Also is it intended that the depot will provide any maintenance or will it just be a stabling location?

Depot building itself isn't used. I was led to believe that there's asbestos in the roof however when I mentioned this elsewhere it was disputed