Transport Investigations “administrative option” - is this fair please?

Status
Not open for further replies.

treep80

Member
Joined
3 Dec 2019
Messages
22
Location
UK
Hi there


I’m new to the forum so please bear with me! I’m sorry this is quite long but I wanted to include all relevant detail please.


I’m a first time “offender”


[1] Planned journey in October 2019


[1.1] My local station (in England) has no ticket facilities

[1.2] Planned arrival into Cardiff gives me 12 minutes to go to unpaid fares and pay for tickets

## I have travelled before to Cardiff, same day & time as recently as September 2019, and always used unpaid fares. I know where it is and how long it takes, and 12 mins is more than enough under normal conditions ##

[1.3] Catch connection to Bridgend

## I have never travelled beyond Cardiff ##


[2] Actual journey


[2.1] Train arrives late by 14 mins, but still shows unchanged arrival time into Cardiff

## no worries – I still have 12 mins at Cardiff to buy all tickets ##

[2.2] Ticket conductor does not pass through train (would have used otherwise)

[2.3] Train arrives late into Cardiff leaving me 4 mins to make connection

[2.4] Alighting, I spot the train opposite (yards away) is my Bridgend connection

[2.5] Immediately jump on board (only thought at that point is to make the connection – I’m being met at Bridgend)

## I know for a fact 4 mins is not enough time to visit unpaid fares ##

[2.6] Tell the first train staff I see (refreshments trolley) I need to buy tickets and would the conductor be passing though

[2.7] Was told the conductor is at rear of train and not to worry

[2.8] Before arriving in Bridgend she has not passed through, so I look for her (walk to rear through 1st class and cannot find)

[2.9] Arrive @ Bridgend and goto first desk I see (Transport police?). I need to buy tickets

## assumed there would also be unpaid fares at Bridgend but never been to Bridgend before ##

[2.10] Was told to speak to gentleman at ticket barrier

[2.11] Told ticket barrier gentleman I need to buy a ticket for full journey (not short journey I must add!)

[2.12] Gentleman at barrier calls over revenue inspector – cautioned, details taken and statement given.


I should also add that, although this whole process was a shock, the revenue officer at Bridgend was courteous and treated me with respect at all times. I was very grateful for that.


I pretty much provided this statement on the day to the inspector, and received a 1st letter from TIL quoting an “administrative option” of £88, and asking for mitigating evidence, to which I have provided (the finer detail and full apology).


I fully expected to have to pay the rail fare (approx. £20), and a possible admin fee, but £88 seemed harsh.


I have since received a 2nd letter saying their position has not changed, but also saying I failed to pay @ Bridgend leaving the inspector no choice but to file a report. That is categorically not true – that’s what I asked to do but was not given the choice - so I have requested a call back to please speak with the case worker to confirm there is no ambiguity in the details I have provided. I’m waiting to hear back.


The 2nd letter from TIL reads a little more worrying, alleging an offence of “intent to evade fare” and an application for a possible summons being made. I have 14 days to respond.


I fully accept my decision making process on the day, which was driven by time pressures outside of my control (which I know is no excuse), but I had every intent to purchase all tickets and feel I made every reasonable proactive attempt to purchase. In hindsight I could have gone to unpaid fares at Cardiff & missed my connection – but maybe that’s what I was expected to do?


==============

In summary:

==============


Does this simply boil down to please:


[1] My version of events, intentions & attempts to purchase are my word only

[2] Whereas TIL can prove I had no ticket at Bridgend (I cannot refute that)

[3] In which case my mitigation evidence is not relevant

[4] Having no ticket is by default assumed to be a criminal intent to fare evade, hence the £88 “administrative option” to avoid a court summons.


..and just pay the charge and be done with it?


I appreciate that, whilst still a lot, £88 is reasonable compared to other passenger experiences, but this process feels like a settlement to avoid criminal proceedings – i.e. inferring I have consciously done something dishonest and wrong - rather than a passenger making a genuine mistake - and I just want to ensure I’m being treated fairly please. It’s really bothering me and I can’t stop thinking about it (!)


Any advice would be very welcome please.


Kind regards


TP
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
5,099
Location
Merseyside
This is not acceptable. If you started at a station that does not provide any ticket selling facilities (i.e. no ticket office, no permit to travel machine and no ticket machine) then you are entitled to start your journey and buy a ticket at the first available opportunity. This is either on board the train, at your interchange station, on the next train or at your destination station. You are not required to seek out the guard on board the train - as it is up to them to come through and you are also not required to miss your connection at the interchange station if there is not enough time for you to buy the ticket there.

In this case it would appear that there were no ticket selling facilities at your starting station, the guard did not come through on either of your trains and you did not have enough time to purchase a ticket when you changed trains. You therefore were entitled to buy your ticket at your destination station. So provided when you got to your destination you stated the station you had originally started your journey from then you have done nothing wrong. The person how took your details and cautioned you was out of order! They had no basis for doing this and should have told you a ticket.

You have made representations to Transport Investigations Limited but they have totally ignored all of the factual information you have given them and continue to try to exploit money from you and threaten you with legal action. This is unacceptable. I would do the following:
1. Complain to your MP and ask them to intervene in this situation. It is about time this company and their conduct was raised in Parliament and subject to review by the Transport Select Committee
2. Make a formal complaint to Transport for Wales about the behavior of THEIR contractor. They their reply is not satisfactory then you can ask for a Manager to review and reply before you are entitled to take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman
3. Issue a letter before action to the registered office of Transport for Wales for breach of contract. Travel by rail is subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel and this includes your rights to buy a ticket enroute when ticket selling facilities are not available at your starting station
4. Write another reply to TIL restating your position and send them a separate complaint about their total failure in ignoring all of the details you have given them and the fact at their staff member took your details in the first place when they had no basis for doing so.

Sadly, we have seen many cases on this forum where this corrupt company Transport Investigations Limited has sent exactly the same letters to other rail users. The wording of them will be exactly the same and this company clearly has a policy of totally ignoring whatever people say to them and continuing to threaten legal action.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
22,500
Location
Redcar
Any advice would be very welcome please.
Unfortunately TIL are something of a cowboy outfit and it's a shame that so many companies use their services.

However. What you do next depends on your risk appetite.

The safest approach is simply to pay up and then complain to TfW in the strongest terms that this attempted prosecution was brought incorrectly and that you should have been allowed to buy a ticket and therfore you request that they refund the difference between the fare due and what you paid.

The riskier option is to fight this potentially all the way to a criminal case in the magistrates. I do think you were perfectly entitled to do as you did and only buy a ticket at Bridgend. But it is the riskier course.
 

some bloke

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,096
@treep80, I'm sorry you're in this position. You can see that you don't need to have a ticket if you didn't have a proper opportunity to buy, in this excerpt from the National Rail Conditions of Travel (note that a new version is set to come in from tomorrow).
National Rail Conditions of Travel highlighted 2_ - PDF-XChange Editor 03_12_2019 15_57_56 ed.png
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx

To answer one of your points, having no ticket would not in any case necessarily prove deliberate fare evasion.

If you upload the correspondence with identifying details removed, people on here may spot things that could help with advice on what to write.

The safest approach is simply to pay up
Might someone on here be able to find evidence of the time the train arrived in Cardiff?
 

treep80

Member
Joined
3 Dec 2019
Messages
22
Location
UK
Hi everyone


Thank you very much for your replies, it’s hugely appreciated! I will upload scans of both letters later today.


And as an aside, my appetite for risk is low, but I’d also rather not just roll over if there’s a consensus I’m not being treated fairly.


Many thanks again


TP
 

Fawkes Cat

Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
941
Like more or less everyone here, I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the potential weak point in your argument is whether there were no facilities at your origin station. I appreciate that you may well want to keep as much of the detail as possible private, but please could you let us know what station you started from? That way, we'll be able to check whether it had a ticket office or machine.
 

treep80

Member
Joined
3 Dec 2019
Messages
22
Location
UK
Hi everyone



These are the two letters I have received from TIL please.



The second letter is in response to my providing full details, as per my post above


...and started from Parson Street please (stated in 1st letter). There is no ticket office or machine.



Many thanks



TP
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Brissle Girl

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
906
There was a very similar case from Bedminster to Patchway on this forum where the poster didn't have time to pay at Temple Meads. I seem to recall GWR eventually backed down. I can't find it unfortunately but hopefully someone can provide the link. There are so many things wrong with TIL's approach it's difficult to know where to start, but reading that case will help.

Presumably you didn't have to change at Temple Meads, or if you did there wasn't time?

As Parson St has no ticket facilities, you didn't have to seek out the guard (although you appear to have made several attempts to do so over the course of your journey). So you were perfectly entitled to arrive at Bridgend and ask to buy a ticket, given there wasn't enough time at Cardiff to do so. (It will be very helpful to know how long that was, so perhaps you can tell us which trains, and hopefully someone will be able to check.)

The fact that you went to the first desk you saw at Bridgend and asked to buy a ticket and was then pointed to the ticket barrier shows that you had intent to pay. Unfortunately that in itself is not clear cut as many people travel ticketless in the hope that there isn't a manned barrier, but as previously noted, you were perfectly entitled to be on the train and wait for someone to approach you, as you boarded at a station without any ticketing facilities.

I'd set all this out, including every attempt you made to find on board staff, state where their letter is in breach of the Conditions of Travel, offer to pay any fare due and not paid, and tell them you have every intention of seeing them in court and pleading not guilty.
 

Fawkes Cat

Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
941
If I have correctly understood previous cases that we have seen here, the treatment you are getting from TIL is par for the course. Is it that they don't read the first response, or that they just don't take any notice of it? We don't know. But what it does mean is that you should now write to them again,
- taking notice of @Brissle Girl 's good advice above
- explaining (again, and in detail) what you did during the journey and why this means that you didn't have an opportunity to pay until you reached Bridgend
- but while being firm, being courteous. The facts as you have stated them are on your side - but if you make it easy for TIL and TfW to back down, then hopefully this matter will be resolved sooner rather than later.
 

treep80

Member
Joined
3 Dec 2019
Messages
22
Location
UK
Hi everyone


Thankyou again for all your responses, I can’t thank you enough!


This was my planned journey on 25th October 2019:


17:06 Parson Street >> 18:13 Cardiff Central

++ change ++

18:25 Cardiff Central >> 18:49 Bridgend


According to a website (I don’t know how accurate this is, and I won’t name in case it’s forbidden on the board):


journey.jpg (if I need to delete this image because of forum rules, please let me know!)


…which if I’m reading this correctly, shows exactly as I reported, late arrival into Cardiff giving me 4 minutes (the chart actually indicates 18:20 – it was 18:21 according to my watch - so 4 to 5 mins – still not enough time in my opinion)


So if I’ve understood this correctly please, according to the National Rail Conditions of Travel:


[1] Parson Street (no ticket facilities)

[2] Train to Cardiff (ticket inspector did not pass through – I was not obliged to seek out)

[3] Late arrival allowing 4 - 5 minutes at interchange station (Cardiff) was not sufficient time to purchase tickets - which was my intention

[4] Train to Bridgend (ticket inspector did not pass through – I was not obliged to seek out – but I actually did)

[5] Arrival at Bridgend – actively sought to purchase, and should have been given the opportunity to purchase, which I asked for, but wasn’t given it?

[6] This last point [5] is where the TIL process is in breach of the Conditions of Travel?


Have I understood this correctly please, and is this what I should be explaining again to TIL?


And does the fact both legs were two different rail companies have any bearing please?


Thankyou again!

Many thanks

TP
 

Attachments

Last edited:

RPI

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
941
This does seem like a very unfair case based on what the OP has said, as has been pointed out you are required to purchase your ticket at an interchange station BUT you are not expected to miss an onward connection to do so, in this case you would have missed your connection at Cardiff had you gone and purchased a ticket, again, if you changed at Temple Meads or Parkway you wouldn't be expected to miss an onward connection to purchase a ticket, I would persevere with fighting this one definitely.
 

Brissle Girl

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
906
Re point 6, yes, the Conditions of travel specifically give you the option of buying at your destination if you haven't had an opportunity previously, so they denied you that opportunity. They are also incorrect in stating that you have an obligation to seek out the guard on your trains, although as you say you did.

Another point - the minimum connection time at Cardiff Central is 7 minutes - that's just to transfer from one train to another, and so clearly to go the excess fare spot, queue up, buy a ticket and return to your platform would reasonably take much longer than that.

Incidentally, one argument they might throw at you is that there was another train from Cardiff just 16 minutes later. However, that arrives in Bridgend nearly an hour later, and besides, you shouldn't be inconvenienced because the rail industry had, up to that point, not given you an opportunity to buy a ticket. Another argument sometimes given is that you can buy on an app. However, once on board, you're not allowed to buy a ticket, and there is no compulsion on using an app before you board.

So, set all this out firmly (and politely as Fawkes Cat rightly suggests). Feel free to submit a draft here before you send it, and we can review it. By the way, don't apologise in the letter - you've done absolutely nothing wrong.
 

cuccir

Established Member
Joined
18 Nov 2009
Messages
3,360
[1] Parson Street (no ticket facilities)

[2] Train to Cardiff (ticket inspector did not pass through – I was not obliged to seek out)

[3] Late arrival allowing 4 - 5 minutes at interchange station (Cardiff) was not sufficient time to purchase tickets - which was my intention

[4] Train to Bridgend (ticket inspector did not pass through – I was not obliged to seek out – but I actually did)

[5] Arrival at Bridgend – actively sought to purchase, and should have been given the opportunity to purchase, which I asked for, but wasn’t given it?

[6] This last point [5] is where the TIL process is in breach of the Conditions of Travel?
Yes - essentially, your response should outline these points 1-5 in slightly more formal prose! You should include an offer at the end of your letter to pay the fare due for the journey (you could even enclose a cheque to that amount): I know you've already offered this but it removes any possibility of them claiming that you're now evading the fare.

I would have no hesitation in continuing to fight this: I suspect that if/when Transport Investigations Limited pass this back to Transport for Wales' lawyers, they will immediately drop the matter, if TIL have not done so already.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
50,518
Location
Yorkshire
Definitely fight this.

Transport Investigations Ltd are an absolute disgrace; I've been made aware of numerous cases where they have incorrectly pursued passengers.

The Train Companies that have contracts with this anti-passenger cowboy operator should hang their heads in shame.
 

treep80

Member
Joined
3 Dec 2019
Messages
22
Location
UK
Hi all


Huge thank you again for your replies and advice!


I am preparing my letter, I’d just like to check one detail please.


Does the fact I intended to purchase individual tickets for both legs (was cheaper than a single for the whole journey) carry an argument there was no Interchange Station (Cardiff) please?


I.e. viewed as two independent journeys in isolation?


Besides, at Bridgend I declared I needed to buy a ticket from Bristol (the whole journey)…and wasn’t allowed to. At that point the barrier staff or inspector had no knowledge of my intention to get all my tickets at unpaid fares in Cardiff – which I then provided in my statement after being cautioned.


Hope that a makes sense!


Many thanks

TP
 

Brissle Girl

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
906
I think you're saying that you intended to purchase two tickets, one from Parson St to Cardiff, and another from Cardiff to Bridgend? (By the way - in your correspondence with them, do be precise - don't say Bristol if you mean Parson St - Temple Meads does of course have ticket purchasing facilities.)

You are perfectly entitled to buy a split ticket on board. However, if you haven't managed to buy a ticket by Cardiff, it is a moot point whether you are entitled to continue your journey expecting to buy a split ticket from Cardiff, as that station has facilities to buy a ticket. You can argue either way, but I think it may complicate matters and not help your copper bottomed case if that was mentioned. At this stage, I would simply say that you were travelling from Parson St and had been unable to purchase a ticket for the journey by the time you arrived in Bridgend, which is perfectly true.
 

treep80

Member
Joined
3 Dec 2019
Messages
22
Location
UK
Hi Brissle girl, thanks for the swift reply


And yes, exactly that please - two single tickets. When I provided my statement I did say "purchase all tickets" at Cardiff, and also gave these exact details in my first reply TIL. Just being transparent.


Happy to keep it brief in my next response as you suggest, but this fine detail literally work me up in the middle of the night so I thought I best clarify it.


Many thanks


TP
 

RPI

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
941
Hi all


Huge thank you again for your replies and advice!


I am preparing my letter, I’d just like to check one detail please.


Does the fact I intended to purchase individual tickets for both legs (was cheaper than a single for the whole journey) carry an argument there was no Interchange Station (Cardiff) please?


I.e. viewed as two independent journeys in isolation?


Besides, at Bridgend I declared I needed to buy a ticket from Bristol (the whole journey)…and wasn’t allowed to. At that point the barrier staff or inspector had no knowledge of my intention to get all my tickets at unpaid fares in Cardiff – which I then provided in my statement after being cautioned.


Hope that a makes sense!


Many thanks

TP
Apologies, this may seem a little pedantic but did you ask for a ticket from Bristol when you arrived at Bridgend or Parson street? Obviously Parson Street is further away (albeit probably the same fare).
 

Brissle Girl

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
906
No, it's not pedantic. It completely changes the complexion of the case if treep80 asked for a ticket from Bristol. The TfL letter says Parson St thankfully.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
2,325
Location
Reading
I wanted to include all relevant detail please.
...
[1.2] Planned arrival into Cardiff gives me 12 minutes to go to unpaid fares and pay for tickets
Well you used "tickets" in the plural throughout, but given the length of your initial post, I'm surprised you didn't think it was relevant to mention it: Is there anything else relevant about the conversation at Bridgend that you haven't mentioned? What precise origin did you state originally? "Bristol" (which is a city, not the name of any station for ticketing purposes, so would certainly include Parson St, but someone at Bridgend might not know that)? Using separate tickets to/from Cardiff is sensible as you then get to use a cheaper Off-Peak Day instead of an Anytime Day for part of the journey.
 

treep80

Member
Joined
3 Dec 2019
Messages
22
Location
UK
Hi all




Applogies for any ambiguity over Bristol & tickets in my posts - I’m certain I did mention just “Bristol” @ Bridgened, in the basic context of where I’d come from….




….this isn’t verbatim, but @ Bridgened the events and conversation was like this:




[1] I goto first desk (transport police I think) and say I need to buy a ticket (singular I'm sure of it)


[2] Pointed to barrier person


[3] Say to barrier person I need to buy a ticket (singular I'm sure of it)


[4] Barrier person asks me where I’ve come from?


[5] I say Bristol (I’m sure I said Bristol – I’d have said exact station is asked for station as opposed to from where)


[6] Barrier person goes over to or calls over to revenue inspector and converse (I don't remember exactly)


[7] Revenue Inspector says something along the lines of “so you’ve come from Bristol? – please come this way etc)


[8] We walk to the area where all the paperwork is kept etc


[9] I say I’d like to buy a ticket (singular I'm sure of it)


[10] Revenue Inspector says something along the lines of because of where I’ve come from / distance travelled (I don’t remember exactly TBH), a report must be filed.

[11] I questioned why I can’t just buy one?

[12] Reply is I had plenty of opportunities to do so

[13] I query this and start explaining...

[14] ....politely told I'll be given a chance to provide a full statement

[15] Cautioned and statement provided – that’s when I gave a full statement, including Parson Street as my starting point+ no ticket facilities, and how I planned to purchase all tickets at Cardiff at unpaid fares etc (plural tickets). I mentioned plural tickets at this point as that’s what I intended (I wasn’t thinking whether a single ticket or two tickets had any bearing on what was going on in that moment)

(in the interests fairness, I will say again that the inspector was polite and courteous)

And Parson Street is, I’m pretty sure, in the same fare zone as Bristol TM, but I’d need to check.

Again, apologies for not understanding the importance of bristol or ticket/tickets in my postings -I realist now that every small detail is critical.

My intention was plural, when asking at Bridgened it was singular. That wasn’t a conscious or evasive thing, just when asking someone I guess it's just natural to say a ticket rather than tickets / some tickets etc. Had I been given the opportunely to purchase @ Bridgend, would I have still gone down the plural? Probably if I'm honest…I just didn’t think there was anything wrong with that (I’ve still come from Parson Street….)


Hope this helps, and apologies again




Many thanks




TP
 
Last edited:

Brissle Girl

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
906
OK, so there are two issues here, being where you started, and the number of tickets you intended to purchase. I think the second one is a red herring, but the first one may have got you into the situation you are in.
By saying Bristol, rather than Parson St, it's likely that the inspector thought you started at Temple Meads or Parkway, and thus boarded at a station with ticketing facilities. And thus started down the track of cautioning you. However, you seem to have clarified the point to the extent that the letter you received clearly stated that you travelled from Parson St, which doesn't. Why a different approach wasn't adopted at that point is anyone's guess.

The fact that the letter you've received states Parson Street should be enough to remove any ambiguity, but it does emphasise the need to be very explicit in such situations. Unfortunately, I can well understand why you might have said Bristol - it feels a natural thing to say as Parson St is in Bristol.

So, continue with drafting your letter, and let us have a look in due course.
 

some bloke

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,096
I have since received a 2nd letter...saying I failed to pay @ Bridgend
That may be the most natural reading. However, considering the fact that they garble things (see below), this may be another example: perhaps the wording is poorly thought out and they meant to say it is alleged that you hadn't paid earlier. These letters seem to be sent out using a standard wording, hastily adapted with little or no attention to detail or the answer the passenger sent in.

The 2nd letter from TIL...alleging an offence of “intent to evade fare”
This may be reassuring to some extent: the letter says it could be alleged, rather than that it is.

The language in the extract below, from the first letter, is garbled. "And" seems an error; it is not obvious why someone would refer to the 2005 Byelaws being "of" an Act from the 1800s, and a relevant Act would be from 1889, not 1885.

letter_1 boxed cro.jpg

Acts (Hansard) - Mozilla Firefox 03_12_2019 19_27_19 cro 2.png

The Byelaws do not involve intent; section 5(3) of the 1889 Act does.

The part which talks about an opportunity to provide "mitigation" (without acknowledging that you may not be guilty at all) is inappropriate as explained above.

You might like to upload the letter you sent, in case there's anything useful.
 
Last edited:

30907

Established Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
9,647
Location
Airedale
The language in the extract below, from the first letter, is garbled; the 2005 Byelaws are not "of" an Act from the 1800s, and a relevant Act would be from 1889, not 1885.
It is certainly incorrect, and it is appalling that a standard letter, presumably issued many times daily, contains errors, but pedantically the errors are typos ("and" should be "under" and "of" should be "or").
 

some bloke

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2017
Messages
1,096
It is certainly incorrect, and it is appalling that a standard letter, presumably issued many times daily, contains errors, but pedantically the errors are typos ("and" should be "under" and "of" should be "or").
Yes - and the year looks like a typo as well. But it isn't very helpful to send a threatening letter that may result in the passenger trying to find a non-existent law.

And these, alongside other possible problems in the letters, may illustrate to @treep80 something about the outfit they're dealing with. It may not be immediately reassuring to find that the letters aren't well thought out, but it may lead someone to have a more realistic idea of why their concerns haven't been taken seriously. The hope would be that when someone at TIL or the company reads the material properly and takes some care, there will be a different answer.
 
Last edited:

33017

Member
Joined
9 Sep 2017
Messages
167
Hi everyone


Thankyou again for all your responses, I can’t thank you enough!


This was my planned journey on 25th October 2019:


17:06 Parson Street >> 18:13 Cardiff Central

++ change ++

18:25 Cardiff Central >> 18:49 Bridgend


According to a website (I don’t know how accurate this is, and I won’t name in case it’s forbidden on the board):


journey.jpg (if I need to delete this image because of forum rules, please let me know!)


…which if I’m reading this correctly, shows exactly as I reported, late arrival into Cardiff giving me 4 minutes (the chart actually indicates 18:20 – it was 18:21 according to my watch - so 4 to 5 mins – still not enough time in my opinion)


So if I’ve understood this correctly please, according to the National Rail Conditions of Travel:


[1] Parson Street (no ticket facilities)

[2] Train to Cardiff (ticket inspector did not pass through – I was not obliged to seek out)

[3] Late arrival allowing 4 - 5 minutes at interchange station (Cardiff) was not sufficient time to purchase tickets - which was my intention

[4] Train to Bridgend (ticket inspector did not pass through – I was not obliged to seek out – but I actually did)

[5] Arrival at Bridgend – actively sought to purchase, and should have been given the opportunity to purchase, which I asked for, but wasn’t given it?

[6] This last point [5] is where the TIL process is in breach of the Conditions of Travel?


Have I understood this correctly please, and is this what I should be explaining again to TIL?


And does the fact both legs were two different rail companies have any bearing please?


Thankyou again!

Many thanks

TP
Realtime Trains info on the two trains you used below (incidentally, both operated by GWR)

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C23663/2019-10-25/detailed (2U24 16.07 Taunton - Cardiff Cen, arr. 1820¼)

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C20196/2019-10-25/detailed (1B55 16.15 Paddington - Swansea, dep. 1827¾)

As you stated, 1B55 arrived on platform 4 at the same time as 2U24 terminated in platform 3.
 

treep80

Member
Joined
3 Dec 2019
Messages
22
Location
UK
Hi there


Thankyou again for all your replies!


Please find attached my response letter – I’m sorry but I don’t really understand the TIL wording regarding laws and mitigation etc. I have omitted these concerns as I can’t articulate them TBH.


Also, some further developments please which may or may not have any bearing?



[1] I re-read the written statement taken by the Inspector, which I do have a copy of but presumably cannot share due to legal reasons etc. Contains nothing new, but focussing on specific wording:



[1.1] The written statement taken by the Inspector @ Bridgend asks why when travelling from “Bristol” have I not bought a ticket on train or at Cardiff? It doesn’t ask why not from the starting station…did I mention already that my starting point had no ticket facilities? Maybe…..


[1.2] In my response, the written report does say Parson Street, but doesn’t mention whether it has / hasn’t ticket facilities. I definitely said there were none – but would expect that to be checked anyway.


[2] If Cardiff is a minimum connection time of 7 mins, does the fact the Bridgend train itself was late departing (so I actually had 7.5 minutes – not that I knew that!) actually mean I had sufficient time and “opportunity”?


[2] A 3rd letter arrived from TIL just today, which is more tailored to me, but no change in their position (please see attached)


RE providing my previous responses to TIL (before I joined the forum). In retrospect, knowing what I’ve learnt now, I would have written them very differently. They contain all the same details (barring the exact specifics of what was said at Bridgend), with a lot of focus on how I was not given enough time @ Cardiff to purchase both tickets (plural) – as I had originally intended.


But if my understanding is correct, the focus is now why I was not given my opportunity to purchase at Bridgend as I was entitled to, given the inspector had no knowledge of my intentions before I set off to purchase two tickets at Cardiff – not that my intention to do that changes anything as split ticketing is perfectly legal?


Many thanks again!


TP
 

Attachments

Status
Not open for further replies.

Top