Transport Investigations taking me to court *settled*

[cmp150]

Hi all,
I travelled from Egham to Cardiff a couple months back and due to a broken down train causing a delay at Reading, I thought I needed to change the time of ticket but in turn refunded it by accident (trainline). Upon arriving at Cardiff Central I was informed that my ticket was invalid and a member of TIL took my details. I should also add that this staff member assured me I would only have to pay any financial settlement to the transport company so find it unfair that TIL are now taking me to court on this. I have already sent letters to them explaining everything but all they are saying is that a court summons may now be made. I contacted GWR whom I travelled with and they informed me they had no details of me. TIL say that it is TFW that reported me but I do not understand this as I rode on a GWR train. I hope I receive some advice as I am finding this really stressful.

 

[furlong]

As you'll see from other threads on here, with TIL you need to be persistent - I struggle to recall a single thread on here where they responded favourably to the person with the problem - and only after they pass the case back to TfW for prosecution might you be able to get some common sense applied by TfW (don't expect it from TIL). If it went to court, a lot might hinge on what information was provided by whatever system you were using - a website? an app? - that was applicable to your situation (broken down train leads to need to travel on a different service). There'll also be some technicalities such as the type of ticket (advance or flexible), when you became aware of the breakdown, what advice you were or were not given at that point or later, when you did the refund and how clear the system made it that that's what you'd done etc.

 

[furlong]

(I think the only way GWR could assist would be if you were successful in obtaining a statement from them that said that in these circumstances they are the party bearing the loss, not TfW and would not have prosecuted, which you could try to use to undermine TfW's standing in the case. This seems extremely unlikely though as the train companies tend to support each other and allow the one that discovers a situation to handle it however it pleases without intervention.)

 

[cmp150]

As you'll see from other threads on here, with TIL you need to be persistent - I struggle to recall a single thread on here where they responded favourably to the person with the problem - and only after they pass the case back to TfW for prosecution might you be able to get some common sense applied by TfW (don't expect it from TIL). If it went to court, a lot might hinge on what information was provided by whatever system you were using - a website? an app? - that was applicable to your situation (broken down train leads to need to travel on a different service). There'll also be some technicalities such as the type of ticket (advance or flexible), when you became aware of the breakdown, what advice you were or were not given at that point or later, when you did the refund and how clear the system made it that that's what you'd done etc.

Thanks for your reply.
I used the trainline app and thought that my ticket would no longer be valid because I would have to get a later train from Reading. I don't think the ticket was flexible but at the time I was stressed and tried changing it. It did not appear on the app that I had refunded the ticket either until after my journey was over. I probably did not look over what I was doing as I was in a hurry

 

[some bloke]

Would you like to upload the correspondence with identifying details removed?

If so people on here may be better able to make suggestions, for example to clarify in the next letter something you've previously written, or emphasise or add points.

tried to change the time of ticket but in turn refunded it by accident.

In isolation it looks dodgy, so explaining why you were in a hurry, as well as what the app said, may help.

Because it looks dodgy, one option at some stage might be to consult a solicitor.

this staff member assured me I would only have to pay any financial settlement to the transport company so find it unfair that TIL are now taking me to court on this.

It would be TfW rather than TIL who take you to court if it happens. Maybe it's more that it was unfair for the staff member to give the assurance.

all they are saying is that a court summons may now be made.

You can still keep trying to make your case to avoid court, which could be more effective with input from this forum.

TIL say that it is TFW that reported me but I do not understand this as I rode on a GWR train.

Presumably because it's a TfW station/TfW staff.

 

[gray1404]

Did you do something that made the ticket disappear from the app? What exactly did you show when you were asked it show a ticket? I am wondering if you did in fact show a ticket, even though you thought you had refunded it - advance tickets are not normally refundable.

 

[cmp150]

I have been in contact with TFW regarding the case who say that 'TIL will not pass on cases to us. You will need to speak with TIL directly regarding their case with you'. So seemingly, I do not have the chance of settling with the transport company themselves? I thought they were the ones taking me to court eventually?

I am going to try sending a letter to TIL again, though I have little hope now. Any suggestions are welcome:

I am writing to you again in the hope that you will kindly consider my request to settle my case outside of court. I certainly did not intend to travel without a valid ticket and will explain this further in the following letter. I am very sorry for any inconveniences my mistake caused and I do understand that fare evasion is a huge issue for transport companies. I hope you are able to reflect on this letter before taking this case to court. Again, I am offering to pay any amount of financial settlement to you and any administrative charges promptly, instead of taking this to court. I understand from your website that this is feasible by yourselves and TFW as it says that it may be agreed to ‘resolve the disputed issue by allowing payment of the fare and administration costs incurred by the rail company as an alternative to proceeding to Court action’.
At the time of the journey, I was under the impression that my ticket was valid. It was only upon arriving at Cardiff Central in which I was informed that it was not. If I had known the ticket was not valid I would have taken immediate action to ensure that I did have a valid ticket. I had no intention in trying to purposefully change the validity of the ticket in any way at all. It was a genuine mistake and I am deeply sorry for any inconveniences caused.
On the ' ', after changing trains at Reading, I had to wait at Reading station for nearly an hour because my train to Cardiff Central was delayed. This was because there was a broken down train ahead. I was due to catch the quarter past 2 train but ended up having to wait longer to catch a train. I became worried that my ticket would need to be changed because of this, due to the train that I would be catching was of a different peak time. I tried to change the time of the ticket, thinking it may be a flexible ticket but the ticket was accidentally refunded. The fact the ticket was refunded can be down to not knowing how trainline works properly and being in a rushed and stressful situation. I did not realise it had been accidentally refunded and had I known I would have ensured I had a valid ticket.

Furthermore, later in the day on the trainline (where the ticket was purchased), the ticket did not appear as ‘refunded’; it only did a day after the journey, so evidently I was not to know that it had become invalid. I do not catch trains regularly and so the added stress of the delayed train meant that I could not think clearly, ultimately causing the incident with the ticket. Additionally, I usually use paper tickets and so having an e-ticket screenshot proved to cause confusion. It was certainly a matter of misunderstanding on how the trainline and e-tickets work. It was a genuine mistake and in no way was it intentional at all. I would never intend to do anything unlawful, nor have I ever done before. As shown by your records, I have always had valid tickets while travelling. Likewise, I have a valid railcard which I have always presented on all rail journeys.

Upon my arrival at Cardiff Central I spoke to a staff member from Transport Investigations who assured me that the matter would be dealt with through the rail company and that I would ‘only have to pay a financial settlement to the transport company’. She also informed me that she was only cautioning me, and that the matter would not go beyond paying a sum to the company. So, having being informed of this by a TIL staff member I find it agreeable that this would be the right way forward.

I am a University student and do not want this mix up to impact my life and the career I want to pursue; I do not want a 'criminal record' and such to affect this. I would be willing to pay any sum in order to avoid this. I hope you are able to give this some consideration too.

I would be more than happy to answer any questions or confusions you may have regarding my case, in person, over the phone or in writing.

Again, I apologise for any inconveniences incurred, and I do hope that you reconsider my case and allow me to promptly pay any amount of settlement to you, which I would be glad to pay, without taking me to prosecution. I never have, and never would intend to act unlawfully and it was certainly never my intention to travel without a valid ticket. I hope you give thought and reflect on this letter before a final decision is made.

 

[Brissle Girl]

This is much too long at the moment.

You haven’t told us yet what ticket you did hold, which may help how you phrase your letter. Was it an advance, or a flexible ticket (eg super off peak) that you thought would be invalid as the next service was only for off peak? Were you trying to pay more for a higher fare, or what?

I don’t think it has been said yet but the NRCoT are clear that if your journey is delayed due to the railway’s fault then you are perfectly entitled to travel on a following service without penalty. So you will need to convince the reader why you were trying to change your ticket in the first place. There was no need to, and of course if you had had a paper ticket would not have been able to. There are enough people to ask at Reading if you were unsure, especially if you had an extra half hour to wait. I’m not questioning why you did what you did, but TIL may well take the cynical view I am giving here in the absence of compelling information to the contrary.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Agree much too long. Maybe something like

On [date] I travelled from Egham to Cardiff. My intended itinerary was [time from Egham, time at Reading, time at Cardiff].

When I boarded at Egham I had in my possession a valid electronic ticket [type of ticket] stored on my mobile phone for this itinerary. I had bought this from Trainline.

On arrival at Reading I found that due to a broken down train my journey would be delayed. I was concerned that my ticket would not be valid for the revised itinerary. In the process of checking this on my phone I inadvertently cancelled the ticket. I was not aware that I had done this.

On arrival at Cardiff I was advised by a member of staff that the ticket was no longer valid.

I sincerely apologise for my error, and the administration which has been necessary to deal with it and I would like to pay the fare and your administration costs. I trust this matter can be settled in this way.

 

[cmp150]

Thanks all for your input, I made my response much shorter and clear about the times and types of ticket etc.
Unfortunately today I received an email back from TIL saying 'As previously advised this matter is now proceeding to Magistrates Court. You will be receiving a summons pack in due course'.
I am assuming the case will not even be passed on to TFW now- I have no idea what to do.

 

[some bloke]

I am assuming the case will not even be passed on to TFW now

It'll still be TfW who prosecute. TIL do investigations, or at least claim to.

I have no idea what to do.

You could post the correspondence here, and information which people have referred to above.

Then when you get the summons, you can write to TfW.

See if you can identify one or more specific points (with what the app displayed) where it's easier to make the kind of mistake you made. What very specific reasons can you give for them to believe you?

If it can't be resolved before the court date, you could go to the court early, ask staff where the prosecutor is and try to persuade them to agree a settlement.

 

[some bloke]

As above, because what you did looks dodgy, at some stage you might consider consulting a solicitor. It depends on such things as your appetite for risk, and your funds. Do you have union membership, or a bank account or insurance policy offering some free legal advice? Local solicitors may offer free initial consultations.

 

[cmp150]

Thanks for the advice. I have just emailed TFW Customer Relations but I doubt they are able to do anything at this stage.
I am able to get free advice with a lawyer at my University Student's Union which may prove to be useful.

 

[furlong]

Again, you need to contact TfW now that TIL is out of the picture to try to persuade them to drop this. You'll see on other threads that some people do succeed at this stage. If they do try to prosecute, you could get a good solicitor who could make the prosecution's job as difficult as possible by both challenging the legitimacy of any prosecution, given that you claim the company has apparently gone back on the outline parameters of the settlement it agreed with you in the first instance during the incident (the person you spoke to could be a witness in court to determine whether or not they did agree not to prosecute and to what extent that is binding), and putting every detail of their evidence to proof e.g. needing to demonstrate how the steps you went through in the app left no doubt that you must have known you were performing a refund and your ticket would no longer be valid.

 

[MotCO]

Do you have union membership, or a bank account or insurance policy offering some free legal advice?

Some house insurance policies include legal advice cover. If you are away at university, it may be worth seeing if your parents' house insurance policy will cover your legal expenses.

 

[some bloke]

It's unlikely that you'll be the only student at your university who's been threatened with prosecution. I'd contact your university union and see what they offer in terms of

a) general advice, and if they offer it,
b) free legal advice.

You might make better use of solicitors' time, and/or communicate more effectively with TfW, if you first upload the correspondence here with identifying details removed, and try to be specific about what was confusing in the app.

 

[some bloke]

I am a University student and do not want this mix up to impact my life and the career I want to pursue; I do not want a 'criminal record' and such to affect this.

To deal with this kind of worry, you could do some research (and/or ask on here for pointers). For the type(s) of work you want, is there a professional body whose website has details of requirements? And as regards employers' attitudes and requirements, including on "spent" convictions, what do you already know?

 

[cmp150]

To deal with this kind of worry, you could do some research (and/or ask on here for pointers). For the type(s) of work you want, is there a professional body whose website has details of requirements? And as regards employers' attitudes and requirements, including on "spent" convictions, what do you already know?

From what I understand, you don't have to declare 'spent' convictions to employers. I do not want to go into a legal profession so I am hoping this will be okay

 

[cmp150]

It's unlikely that you'll be the only student at your university who's been threatened with prosecution. I'd contact your university union and see what they offer in terms of

a) general advice, and if they offer it,
b) free legal advice.

You might make better use of solicitors' time, and/or communicate more effectively with TfW, if you first upload the correspondence here with identifying details removed, and try to be specific about what was confusing in the app.

My University does offer legal advice through the student's union which I will be exploring and will hopefully prove useful.
I have just emailed TFW customer services too, though I doubt anything will happen at this stage.

 

[some bloke]

From what I understand, you don't have to declare 'spent' convictions to employers. I do not want to go into a legal profession so I am hoping this will be okay

It depends on the employer and the profession - it's not just law.

 

[some bloke]

These may be of interest (hopefully, reasonably accurate):

https://hub.unlock.org.uk/need-disclose-spent-conviction-employer/

See the A-Z list here:
https://hub.unlock.org.uk/knowledgebase/convictions-employment-law-2/

https://www.nacro.org.uk/resettleme...ecords/disclosing-criminal-records-employers/

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-guidance-on-the-rehabilitation-of-offenders-act-1974

 

[cmp150]

These may be of interest (hopefully, reasonably accurate):

https://hub.unlock.org.uk/need-disclose-spent-conviction-employer/

See the A-Z list here:
https://hub.unlock.org.uk/knowledgebase/convictions-employment-law-2/

https://www.nacro.org.uk/resettleme...ecords/disclosing-criminal-records-employers/

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-guidance-on-the-rehabilitation-of-offenders-act-1974

Thanks. I am unsure of the exact profession I wish to go into but it would probably be business related.

 

[cmp150]

Hi all,
The summons arrived today and TIL are taking me to court in 2 weeks.
I have attached some pictures of the summons- I am in need of help ASAP. As it stands I will not have a solicitor but am in the process of getting legal advice from my university. Advice on how to proceed would be great as this is all new to me. I just want this all to be over as it is all taking a toll on my mental health. I have emailed TFW but have had no communication back, it appears that they have no part in this.

 

[gray1404]

Some universities have a free legal advise clinic in their law facility. I know we certainly did when I was reading Law at University. It was not advertised to students through, rather members of the public in the local area, but it is certainly worth asking or an email to a key member of staff in the facility.

Do you wish to upload a copy of the witness statement they have enclosed (with your personal information retracted)?

How doable is it for you to attend the Court on the date in question before the start of business? You can ask the Clark of the Court to point out the Prosecutor and approach that person. Ask them if they would be willing to agree an Out of Court Settlement there and then? This needs to be done before the case is called.

 

[Cymglo]

The summons says that you travelled on a TfW service - but you've said you travelled with GWR, surely they can't do anything if they've provided incorrect evidence?

 

[swj99]

..........How doable is it for you to attend the Court on the date in question before the start of business? You can ask the Clark of the Court to point out the Prosecutor and approach that person. Ask them if they would be willing to agree an Out of Court Settlement there and then? This needs to be done before the case is called.

Or why not approach the prosecutor and point out that due to the contradiction between what is alleged, ie the train company you are accused of travelling with, and the facts of the matter, which are that you actually travelled on a TfW service, the case is defective, so you are requesting that they offer no evidence and consent to the case against you being dismissed ?

 

[Fare-Cop]

The summons says that you travelled on a TfW service - but you've said you travelled with GWR, surely they can't do anything if they've provided incorrect evidence?

Reading the Legal Guidance section of the forum will be helpful here, but to take the important extract form that excellent summary, this explains it perfectly:

'In practice, matters of suspected railway passenger ticketing offences or conduct and behaviour on Railway Property, will be Investigated and Prosecuted by the Railway Company affected by the matter, but there is no legal reason why one Company's Officers could not investigate a matter affecting other Companies, and this will happen quite naturally where the matter affects more than one Operator (e.g. use of a season ticket applicable on several Companies' trains) or by agreement (e.g. where two Companies serve the same route). Agreements between operators whose trains serve the same area are common, and staff employed by one Company will regularly interview passengers travelling on another Company's services where an Offence is suspected (e.g. a fare is thought not to have been paid).'

Where two or more TOCs operate over the same route it is quite normal for the company whose staff have detected the alleged offence to proceed

 

[cmp150]

Or why not approach the prosecutor and point out that due to the contradiction between what is alleged, ie the train company you are accused of travelling with, and the facts of the matter, which are that you actually travelled on a TfW service, the case is defective, so you are requesting that they offer no evidence and consent to the case against you being dismissed ?

Do you think it is worth writing an email to them about this today? Or as you say approaching them on the day in regards to the matter?

 

[cmp150]

Where two or more TOCs operate over the same route it is quite normal for the company whose staff have detected the alleged offence to proceed

However TFW do not operate a service on the route I took

 

[Fare-Cop]

However TFW do not operate a service on the route I took

Your original message states '

Upon arriving at Cardiff Central I was informed that my ticket was invalid and a member of TIL took my details.

TfW operate the station at Cardiff Central and that's where the alleged offence was detected by their staff.

There are agreements in place between the TOCs as described by that extract from the legal guidance section and a great many similar cases have been processed this way in the past.