Transport Select Committee 24 June - Including plans to centralise control of Railways

[The Ham]

Doesn't that depend on where the demand goes instead? If it reduces overall travel but maintains economic activity, it may be fine to price off demand. If it increases car travel, that is more of a problem.

It would seem that one particular advantage to the Treasury of centralising control is to try and maximise revenue and reduce subsidy.

It's almost certain that everyone who is priced off the railways ends up using roads.

However the more we switch to rail the less travel overall which is likely to be made as you see the true cost to you of each trip.

If you knew that your car was costing £5.50 a day (annual cost of £2,000, which Kwik Fit have identified as the annual cost of car ownership excluding the purchase costs, of you include their figures for car purchase this rises to £12.50 a day), even when it's not being used, then people may not be so keen to own multiple cars, especially when many second cars may not get used much over a weekend and a fairly few miles each weekday, even more so if it's mostly used for getting to/from school.

However in reducing use, then there's a good chance that some travel would switch to rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you knew that your car was costing £5.50 a day (annual cost of £2,000, which Kwik Fit have identified as the annual cost of car ownership excluding the purchase costs, of you include their figures for car purchase this rises to £12.50 a day)

How on earth do they get to £2K?

Servicing, about £200. Insurance, about £400. Tax, £150. Very occasional extra stuff like tyres and brakes, let's say takes it to a grand, not two.

Or are they including some sort of average value for fuel as well, which is a nonsense as that wholly depends on how far you drive?

Of course if you buy an older car you will get higher repair costs, but lower purchase costs, so it's probably also a nonsense not incorporating that, unless you're doing it specifically to establish if it would make more sense for you to buy an older or newer car.

 

[The Planner]

Planning staff it seems is already quite integrated with NR doing much of the timetable and TOCs only having a small say in the schedule except on lines with a lot of other capacity. This area could all be maybe integrated as part of the RDG (Rail delivery Group)

That isn't true at all, the TOC knows its business, numbers, crew, stock etc far far better than what NR do. You could genuinely argue that all we do is validate the plan and then work with the operators if there are clashes to fix. To say a TOC has only a small say isn't the case.

Train planning is a big area to get savings in. TOC TPU's are sometimes quite large and that is where a lot of the TPU experience now is so splitting out MK and creating integrated Regional TPU's would probably benefit the railway in a number of ways. Again, if you remove TOC commercial gaming in current franchises, the intricate "what if" timetabling work also goes.

Going full circle again? The whole system would fall back into the big hole it did 10 years ago when we centralised if we did that unless you are saying you get rid of the duplicated NR side and keep the TOC staff. Again, I would argue that TOC TPUs aren't very big, they have certainly struggled, and will struggle over the next few months to get back on track (no pun intended). Fully agree that is where is a lot of experience is though.

 

[markymark2000]

That fare was there because it was the only non-Merseyrail Chester-Liverpool route for decades, and is still run as a through route by Northern to position the EP-Helsby shuttle.
Also during the first part of the lock-down the TfW direct service via Runcorn was axed, so it was useful again.
They could of course just make the via Runcorn fare the Any Permitted one of course.
As far as I can see the Anytime Day Return is actually 10p cheaper via Warrington than via Runcorn.

It might have been useful back then but who is going to use a Chester to Liverpool via Warrington fare using Northern Only when Merseyrail is available? People didn't make the journey via Warrington before and that includes when the big platform works rail replacements were on so it's certainly not going to be used in other circumstances except for 1 or 2 passengers who have clicked the wrong button or are enthusiasts.

Via Runcorn fare is £7.70. Via Warrington is £12.20 so not sure where you found your fares.

 

[ComUtoR]

How on earth do they get to £2K?

Servicing, about £200. Insurance, about £400. Tax, £150. Very occasional extra stuff like tyres and brakes, let's say takes it to a grand, not two.

Everyone costs differ. Sometimes greatly. My tax (2L diesel) is only £20. Last years service and this years is free; next year around £350 (many people do not service their car). My insurance... Is just a squeeze under £500. However, my neighbour is paying around £3k. Also remember that insurance for young drivers is shocking. My tyres are now on their 2yr cycle (fronts this year/rears next) and they are around £120 each. My incidentals are a bit more than most.. I'm not a clean freak but I like the higher end cleaning stuff. For screenwash I probably go through about £20-25 a year.

Just like buying tickets. Some will try and do their very best to do it on the cheap. Others will happily blow a small fortune on luxury travel. I took my first Uber the other day. I opted for Uber Exec.

 

[markymark2000]

That isn't true at all, the TOC knows its business, numbers, crew, stock etc far far better than what NR do. You could genuinely argue that all we do is validate the plan and then work with the operators if there are clashes to fix. To say a TOC has only a small say isn't the case.

Oh TOCs know the stock and crew a lot better than NR, I don't dispute that side but on the whole, how much leeway is there for TOCs since the majority of routes go through a major pinch point. Areas with lots of capacity TOCs of course have a lot more say but how much flexibility is there for negotiation the many pinch points. I can't see there being that much. If all the TOC planning teams were merged into NR, it would make all the services be more integrated anyway and if we are moving away from franchising, you are going to end up with duplicate people doing the same things just for different companies which is exactly the thing which is trying to be prevented and try to save money.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Via Runcorn fare is £7.70. Via Warrington is £12.20 so not sure where you found your fares.

They are the top two Anytime Day Return fares on brfares.
12.90 with no route shown, 12.80 via Warrington - presumably that fare if just the old one (pre-Runcorn) adjusted for annual increases.
I see an ADR via Runcorn at 7.70 and it's 7.90 via Birkenhead.
It's one thing to remove the specific via Warrington fare, and another to take the route off the Permitted list.

 

[markymark2000]

They are the top two Anytime Day Return fares on brfares.
12.90 with no route shown, 12.80 via Warrington - presumably that fare if just the old one (pre-Runcorn) adjusted for annual increases.
I see an ADR via Runcorn at 7.70 and it's 7.90 via Birkenhead.
It's one thing to remove the specific via Warrington fare, and another to take the route off the Permitted list.

Take via Warrington fare off. I've not said take it off the permitted list but the point remains that the people taking such a route are minimal. Arguably only a few per year. During the huge Merseyrail disruption, people drove, got the bus or used the rail replacement and didn't travel via Warrington then so if they won't go that routing when the Merseyrail is off, when will they use the route? I can't even see Frodsham or Helsby passengers using the route so it could be removed off the permitted list. The only time it will be used is if people have no alternative and are forced to go that way (If that instance was to occur, ticket restrictions would be lifted as it would be a special case).

As a side note, the £7.90 via Birkenhead fare is only peak time. Off peak passengers are told to buy the £5 day saver.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Take via Warrington fare off. I've not said take it off the permitted list but the point remains that the people taking such a route are minimal. Arguably only a few per year. During the huge Merseyrail disruption, people drove, got the bus or used the rail replacement and didn't travel via Warrington then so if they won't go that routing when the Merseyrail is off, when will they use the route? I can't even see Frodsham or Helsby passengers using the route so it could be removed off the permitted list. The only time it will be used is if people have no alternative and are forced to go that way (If that instance was to occur, ticket restrictions would be lifted as it would be a special case).

As a side note, the £7.90 via Birkenhead fare is only peak time. Off peak passengers are told to buy the £5 day saver.

Talking of the Warrington route, in my youth of travelling round the North West there was actually a direct service that way, and even though there was I was questioned by guards a number of times saying that it wasn't a reasonable route (and it isn't, really, it's decidedly circuitous) and that the intention of the through service was for intermediate use and not for people to make the full journey, a bit like going the wrong way round the Fife Circle or similar. I never actually got charged anything as they could never give an answer to "well, can I pay the extra please?" as there wasn't any such excess, but overall it has never been seen as a sensible route.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Talking of the Warrington route, in my youth of travelling round the North West there was actually a direct service that way, and even though there was I was questioned by guards a number of times saying that it wasn't a reasonable route (and it isn't, really, it's decidedly circuitous) and that the intention of the through service was for intermediate use and not for people to make the full journey, a bit like going the wrong way round the Fife Circle or similar. I never actually got charged anything as they could never give an answer to "well, can I pay the extra please?" as there wasn't any such excess, but overall it has never been seen as a sensible route.

Probably the same guard who told me I coudn't use a Cheshire Day Ranger at Earlestown "because it isn't in Cheshire".
He never came back for the excess, maybe he checked the map.
NWT ran an hourly Liverpool-Warrington-Chester before it was cut back to Warrington plus the peak EPort shuttle which is still there.
When the through service ran, the Chester-Manchester service skipped stations south of Warrington and was more attractive as a result.
.

 

[The Ham]

How on earth do they get to £2K?

Servicing, about £200. Insurance, about £400. Tax, £150. Very occasional extra stuff like tyres and brakes, let's say takes it to a grand, not two.

Or are they including some sort of average value for fuel as well, which is a nonsense as that wholly depends on how far you drive?

Of course if you buy an older car you will get higher repair costs, but lower purchase costs, so it's probably also a nonsense not incorporating that, unless you're doing it specifically to establish if it would make more sense for you to buy an older or newer car.

The link to the report with the figures is here:

https://www.kwik-fit.com/press/motorists-costs-running-at-one-hundred-and-sixty-two-pounds-per-month-excluding-cost-of-the-car

It does include a figure of just over £800/year for fuel.

Personally I do think that the total figures are a little high, however including purchase costs a figure of over £3,000 is probably fairly close to what a lot of people would pay with relatively few paying less than £2,000 a year (although not there will be some who will be less than this, but generally those traveling fairly few miles each year).

 

[Roast Veg]

My insurance... Is just a squeeze under £500. However, my neighbour is paying around £3k. Also remember that insurance for young drivers is shocking.

Easily above £1000 on its own. Last quote I had was £1400.

 

[Northhighland]

If we want people to move from rod to rail we need better integrated public transport. This is an easy think to talk about but seems really difficult to make happen in practice. In Scotland it seems very difficult. I would like to think more local control over transport to allow local decision akers to set bus timetables to work fully with train timetables would improve the situation, but think the key here is not to think of the railway on its own, it has to be a part of the transport system. If you get off the train and still need your car to get home you have definitely lost some passengers who will just use their car for the whole journey.

So modal shift is a good thing, cars should only be used in areas where they are needed, cities should be easier to use public transport.