Transport Select Committee calls for cancelled electrification schemes to be reinstated

[Aictos]

Sadly the Scottish Govt is the closest we in the UK will get to a pro electrification agenda!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Sadly the Scottish Govt is the closest we in the UK will get to a pro electrification agenda!

Yes well done Scotland. Wales need to do the same imho

 

[AndrewE]

Owning lots of retail space to subsidise the railway isn't a core purpose of the railway, but if you have an estate with a large amount of land which can be used in this way to subsidise core railway operations, why on earth wouldn't you?

It might be that it costs you more to maintain and manage than the rental it brings in (think railway arch in Workington or Middlesborough, or some other place with a collapsed economy.) This is why the railways and other key infrastructure (Inland Waterways, Water boards, health service etc.) should be part of the public sector, full stop. They can do what is needed in the area, free from narrow-minded departmental or business-unit "bottom line" objectives. A parallel is a local authority letting rooms for dancing "below cost," when getting the elderly out of their houses, keeping them on their feet and exercising and practising balance is going to save a lot more money on healthcare. Unfortunately local authorities are so strapped for cash that they put rents up to a level that causes most of these socially- (and ultimately financially-) valuable functions to close down. Truly we are being driven by those who know the price of everything an the value of nothing!

I would argue that in addition to the above by leasing out space which may otherwise be unused/under utilised you can get others to pay you to provide refreshments to your passengers which if you provided yourself on your trains would likely cost you money.

May well be, but if rents are so high that a pint of beer is £5.50 (which I noticed at Manchester Vic yesterday) then you will only get away with it if you have City types swilling champagne. I was offended by the rubbish coffee that cost over £5 for two weak medium sized cups!

 

[The Ham]

Yes well done Scotland. Wales need to do the same imho

In Wales' defence they have committed to wiring up quite a few of the Valley lines.

 

[yorksrob]

It might be that it costs you more to maintain and manage than the rental it brings in (think railway arch in Workington or Middlesborough, or some other place with a collapsed economy.) This is why the railways and other key infrastructure (Inland Waterways, Water boards, health service etc.) should be part of the public sector, full stop. They can do what is needed in the area, free from narrow-minded departmental or business-unit "bottom line" objectives. A parallel is a local authority letting rooms for dancing "below cost," when getting the elderly out of their houses, keeping them on their feet and exercising and practising balance is going to save a lot more money on healthcare. Unfortunately local authorities are so strapped for cash that they put rents up to a level that causes most of these socially- (and ultimately financially-) valuable functions to close down. Truly we are being driven by those who know the price of everything an the value of nothing!

The fact remains that the railway will have to own arches in Middlesbrough, on account of having to run trains over them, however it will also have arches in trendy places, so it should be allowed to rake it in on those arches, rather than being forced to flog off any that are profitable.

 

[AndrewE]

The fact remains that the railway will have to own arches in Middlesbrough, on account of having to run trains over them, however it will also have arches in trendy places, so it should be allowed to rake it in on those arches, rather than being forced to flog off any that are profitable.

agreed. I was making the point that a publicly-owned railway that isn't on its uppers can do good in areas "subsidised" by similar or other activities in areas where the economy is over-heated (or getting rich on money siphoned out of the provinces, like pension fund management.)

 

[Southsider]

Yes well done Scotland. Wales need to do the same imho

Let's not get carried away with the situation in Scotland. Edinburgh to Glasgow via both Falkirks are complete and up and running. Stirling, Dunblane, Alloa and Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts are nearing completion; all should be operational round about the turn of the year. No continuation of the 'rolling programme' has been announced which will result in the teams being disbanded and the expertise lost (sound familiar?). The delay may be down to the new process for promoting schemes (to be local authority led) or Transport Scotland doing a DfT and considering other options (bimodes anyone?) Whatever the reason, there is hole developing in the order books which does not bode well.

 

[The Ham]

May well be, but if rents are so high that a pint of beer is £5.50 (which I noticed at Manchester Vic yesterday) then you will only get away with it if you have City types swilling champagne. I was offended by the rubbish coffee that cost over £5 for two weak medium sized cups!

There's a big difference between changing too much for rent and not renting the space. As I said it's often better to have catering which is generating you money than that in trains which may not make you much of anything.

I would suggest that you bear in mind that most convenient food/drink options the to be more costly. For instance if you stop at a Service Station the costs tends to be more than if you can find a cafe.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Let's not get carried away with the situation in Scotland. Edinburgh to Glasgow via both Falkirks are complete and up and running. Stirling, Dunblane, Alloa and Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts are nearing completion; all should be operational round about the turn of the year. No continuation of the 'rolling programme' has been announced which will result in the teams being disbanded and the expertise lost (sound familiar?). The delay may be down to the new process for promoting schemes (to be local authority led) or Transport Scotland doing a DfT and considering other options (bimodes anyone?) Whatever the reason, there is hole developing in the order books which does not bode well.

The electrification that could be done in 2019-2024 isn't as amenable to alternative solutions. It's largely about filling in small gaps in otherwise electrified areas, meaning that the relative value of bi-modes is significantly reduced. For instance, there would be no point building the Dalmeny Chord if it weren't electrified, and the trains that will use it are being introduced right now as pure EMUs. The South Suburban electrification is needed for the line to be a useful diversionary route while the eastern end of Waverley is being remodelled. Maryhill would be done as an operational efficiency measure to get EMUs out of the platforms at Queen Street HL. East Kilbride and Barrhead have essentially no electrification at all and need something more suited for their stopping commuter traffic than 156s. There'd be no point going for bi-modes at all - it's DMUs or EMUs and that's about it. It's not the longest route by any stretch of the imagination either.

Bi-modes and alternative solutions are more meaningful for routes beyond the Central Belt but they're not really planned anyway for the next few years. Going beyond Dunblane is less useful if there's an expectation of bi-mode power. If trains would be on diesel from Perth or Dundee, then they may as well be on it from Dunblane. The value of that electrification is that it's a relatively simple stretch of track which would allow semi-fast Glasgow commuter services to be extended well into the middle of Scotland.

 

[Southsider]

The electrification that could be done in 2019-2024 isn't as amenable to alternative solutions. It's largely about filling in small gaps in otherwise electrified areas, meaning that the relative value of bi-modes is significantly reduced. For instance, there would be no point building the Dalmeny Chord if it weren't electrified, and the trains that will use it are being introduced right now as pure EMUs. The South Suburban electrification is needed for the line to be a useful diversionary route while the eastern end of Waverley is being remodelled. Maryhill would be done as an operational efficiency measure to get EMUs out of the platforms at Queen Street HL. East Kilbride and Barrhead have essentially no electrification at all and need something more suited for their stopping commuter traffic than 156s. There'd be no point going for bi-modes at all - it's DMUs or EMUs and that's about it. It's not the longest route by any stretch of the imagination either.

Bi-modes and alternative solutions are more meaningful for routes beyond the Central Belt but they're not really planned anyway for the next few years. Going beyond Dunblane is less useful if there's an expectation of bi-mode power. If trains would be on diesel from Perth or Dundee, then they may as well be on it from Dunblane. The value of that electrification is that it's a relatively simple stretch of track which would allow semi-fast Glasgow commuter services to be extended well into the middle of Scotland.

I don’t disagree with what you say but my point is where’s the commitment? We’re rolling to a halt on electrification in Scotland with no public explanation of why. Is it intentional or has someone dropped the ball? Completion of the Glasgow suburban network seems obvious, is the problem that there are too many local authorities involved? Lots of questions - no answers yet.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I don’t disagree with what you say but my point is where’s the commitment? We’re rolling to a halt on electrification in Scotland with no public explanation of why. Is it intentional or has someone dropped the ball? Completion of the Glasgow suburban network seems obvious, is the problem that there are too many local authorities involved? Lots of questions - no answers yet.

A broader question then - have we heard announcements about any rail enhancement work after EGIP?

The three major electrification projects which are likely to go ahead are tied up with other improvement works. The Dalmeny Chord wiring has to be done alongside the new track work; the East Kilbride wiring would have to happen after any doubling works and the South Sub wiring makes most sense announced as part of the wider Edinburgh remodelling project. If we hear about redoubling of East Kilbride or South Sub/Waverley remodelling without mention of wiring then we'll know there's something wrong.

It's not the end of the world if there's a short gap between one project and another. The problem lies when there's not enough confidence that the skills and other investments needed for electrification will be required in the medium term (3-10 years). I can understand why Transport Scotland might want to let the EGIP project wiring bed in a little before committing to any more work.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And surely crude oil at 75$ per barrel and rising might focus peoples minds with regards to electrification

 

[D365]

And surely crude oil at 75$ per barrel and rising might focus peoples minds with regards to electrification

Try telling that to Mr G.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Try telling that to Mr G.

Would that be Mr F. G where F stands for failing? I know I keep going on about electrification and I know it has to be paid for, but a steady rolling programme............ surely

 

[CdBrux]

Would that be Mr F. G where F stands for failing? I know I keep going on about electrification and I know it has to be paid for, but a steady rolling programme............ surely

to go back to a previous post of mine there is still quite a bit potentially in the offing:
* Wigan - Lostock
* MML to Kettering (or Mkt Harborough) and Corby
* Quite a bit in S Wales
* GWML to un-paused to Oxford and Bristol
* Quite possibly some as part of TPE TRU (although with caveat that electrification is a cost reduction scheme and not contributing much to capacity & speed that is the key required output)
* Renewals ??

Better to scale back a bit and get this lot right. If it were your business would you consider electrification as having credibility right now or needing to prove itself in order to attract further investment?

 

[coppercapped]

And surely crude oil at 75$ per barrel and rising might focus peoples minds with regards to electrification

It will make no difference at all. Look at the statistics for energy costs over the years - all the energy prices move together, not in lockstep but with a delay of a month or half a year or so. Over a twenty or so year period - the amortisation time of a typical large infrastructure capital investment project - the ratios of the prices don't shift hugely. And it is very unlikely that any unexpected discovery of a new fossil fuel source will shift the calculation very much.

Even renewables follow suit, oil rises, the owners of the photo-pharms and windmills see an opportunity to make a bit more and the price of electricity goes up.

 

[edwin_m]

It will make no difference at all. Look at the statistics for energy costs over the years - all the energy prices move together, not in lockstep but with a delay of a month or half a year or so. Over a twenty or so year period - the amortisation time of a typical large infrastructure capital investment project - the ratios of the prices don't shift hugely. And it is very unlikely that any unexpected discovery of a new fossil fuel source will shift the calculation very much.

Even renewables follow suit, oil rises, the owners of the photo-pharms and windmills see an opportunity to make a bit more and the price of electricity goes up.

That is true to a large extent. However if the energy cost of an activity like running a train is lower with electricity than with diesel, then if both go up by the same percentage the saving will increase by the same percentage too.

 

[Class 170101]

To believe to the contrary is to suggest that a TOC would ever willingly agree to a hard-to-achieve SRT

Slightly disagree depending upon rounding, you might find the time between A and B rounded down and the next one between B and C rounded up (or vice versa) where the overall journey time between A and C isn't slack.

 

[HSTEd]

It will make no difference at all. Look at the statistics for energy costs over the years - all the energy prices move together, not in lockstep but with a delay of a month or half a year or so. Over a twenty or so year period - the amortisation time of a typical large infrastructure capital investment project - the ratios of the prices don't shift hugely. And it is very unlikely that any unexpected discovery of a new fossil fuel source will shift the calculation very much.

Even renewables follow suit, oil rises, the owners of the photo-pharms and windmills see an opportunity to make a bit more and the price of electricity goes up.

My understanding is that over the last fifty years the price of electricity has increased more slowly on average than the price of liquid fuels.
At least globally, so excluding the current madness in the UK electricity 'market'.