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Travel in declassified first class when timetable shows standard only

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MP33

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I can recall that when Greater Anglia transferred the class 315 stock to Tfl in the middle of a timetable. There were three early morning Southend Victoria services operated by class 321's with 1st class accomodation, although the timetable did not have the 1 symbol. There was a poster who was challenged by an Inspector and showed a copy of the timetable to prove that he was in the right.

When Greater Anglia had short forms last year they declassified 1st class. They kept it quiet and I found out about it and claimed £50 back.
 
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Felix A

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If they don't offer you a first class ticket, why should you have to pay standard + upgrade, resulting in most likely a much more expensive fare overall? This is coming from a very basic point of view just for evertbody's information.
 

Royston Vasey

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The problem is too much 1st class provision was specified by the DfT on the 8 car trains. To mitigate this GTR decided to declassify the rear 1st class. Problem is passengers can’t be expected to know whether they’re on an 8 or 12 car train so the declassification has to apply to all 700s.
Is this also the case on Thameslink branded Cambridge to Kings Cross services? I've been trying to find confirmation of that for ages!
 

Hadders

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The rear 1st class compartment is permanently declassified on class 700 operated services. All Thameslink services are operated by class 700s.
 

Belperpete

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The rear 1st class compartment is permanently declassified on class 700 operated services. All Thameslink services are operated by class 700s.
Reading back through this thread, it would appear that the only place TL have advertised this to the public before boarding is on their Twitter feed?

Most passengers with a standard-class ticket won't get into a first-class compartment, so won't see any message that may (or may not!) be displayed on the PIS in a declassified first-class compartment.
 

Hadders

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Reading back through this thread, it would appear that the only place TL have advertised this to the public before boarding is on their Twitter feed?

Most passengers with a standard-class ticket won't get into a first-class compartment, so won't see any message that may (or may not!) be displayed on the PIS in a declassified first-class compartment.

That’s right. I wouldn't expect them to publicise it widely. The last thing they want is raising everyone’s expectation that they can travel in declassified 1st class.

The reality is that at peak times the declassified 1st compartments are full anyway so further publicity isn’t required.
 

yorkie

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Why doesn't somebody ask the direct question of GA, just as several did of GTR? Silence on the matter would become deafening.
GA refuse to answer.

https://twitter.com/HowardTizz/status/1130985754577047554
@greateranglia if a train you operate is advertised as conveying standard class, what can a passenger say if a Guard claims that the service does convey 1st class and tries to charge an additional/excess fare?
It’s interesting that they haven’t answered this. I always thought if a service wasn’t in the timetable as having first class then if the physical train has a first class part it is automatically declassified. Has that rule changed now?
That is the rule, but @greateranglia presumably won't admit it, because some of their staff have been caught threatening to charge passengers excess fares to upgrade their ticket to 1st class, on trains advertised as conveying standard class only. Still no reply @greateranglia?
 

Mag_seven

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I travelled on two GA services last week that had first class accommodation but were shown in the new timetable as being "standard class only". On one service I overhead the guard stating that although it is shown in the TT as being standard class only they have been "instructed" to charge an upgrade fee to any standard class ticket holder using that accommodation from this week. On the other service the guard told me that if the train in question is on a route where first class fares still exist (even though the train in question is advertised as being standard class only) they must again raise an upgrade fee.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I travelled on two GA services last week that had first class accommodation but were shown in the new timetable as being "standard class only". On one service I overhead the guard stating that although it is shown in the TT as being standard class only they have been "instructed" to charge an upgrade fee to any standard class ticket holder using that accommodation from this week. On the other service the guard told me that if the train in question is on a route where first class fares still exist (even though the train in question is advertised as being standard class only) they must again raise an upgrade fee.
Sounds like one to mystery shop then!
 

infobleep

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I don't see how it's confusing.

The front of the train is first class (when advertised). The back isn't, and on some services where first class isn't advertised, or even specifically stated as 'not available' then you can use either end.

People with first class tickets can be sure there's always first class at the front, whichever way around the train is. It's very clear and only an issue if someone is riding a train for fun and stays on, whereby you need to change ends if you want to use the declassified bit.

If someone with a first class ticket goes in the 'wrong section' so what? It might be busier, but they still get the table and power socket, and a more comfy seat.

I really fail to see what the problem is. A smaller section at both ends (and enforced at both ends) seems more of a mess, as you have to walk through 8 or 12 coaches to see if there's a seat at the other end. It's not just 4 coaches as per a 365, where in 8 or 12 configurations you get double or triple the amount of seats to check out - with no open gangway.

The 387s are a mess and by far the worst first class configuration.
What if someone with a standard class ticket accidentally goes into the wrong section?
 

infobleep

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Many of the people who use the service up to Luton Airport Parkway are not regular travellers and are unfamiliar with the situation. If a local service arrives they can sit in that section if the rest of the train is busy, if it's a fast they can't - there isn't any obvious indication for this. The trains are the same, they are going to the same place yet there are different rules regarding those trains that aren't obvious- how can you say that ISN'T confusing ?
Not all the locals. At lest 4 have first class. I guess they would be fast form Luton Airport Parkway at least .
 

infobleep

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I travelled on two GA services last week that had first class accommodation but were shown in the new timetable as being "standard class only". On one service I overhead the guard stating that although it is shown in the TT as being standard class only they have been "instructed" to charge an upgrade fee to any standard class ticket holder using that accommodation from this week. On the other service the guard told me that if the train in question is on a route where first class fares still exist (even though the train in question is advertised as being standard class only) they must again raise an upgrade fee.
I wonder if they would want to go to court over it? I suspect they would refund on the advise of thier lawyers.
 

Silver Cobra

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Reading back through this thread, it would appear that the only place TL have advertised this to the public before boarding is on their Twitter feed?

Most passengers with a standard-class ticket won't get into a first-class compartment, so won't see any message that may (or may not!) be displayed on the PIS in a declassified first-class compartment.

Thameslink do advertise that first class is only at the front of class 700 services on the screens at stations. Following the information about the train length (the 'A Thameslink service formed of 'X' coaches' message), it then displays '1st class at the front'. The audio announcements also state that 'first class accomodation is at the front of the train' before the 'mind the gap' part of the announcement.
 

jon0844

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What if someone with a standard class ticket accidentally goes into the wrong section?

Why would someone with a standard class ticket go into first class at all unless they knew they could?

We can argue that it's perhaps unfair that some people aren't aware and are 'missing out' but I've been on plenty of trains where I've sat in standard even though the timetable has no advertised first class service.

Many Hertford East trains, for example, where I can't be bothered to move to the right part of whatever turns up.
 

infobleep

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Why would someone with a standard class ticket go into first class at all unless they knew they could?

We can argue that it's perhaps unfair that some people aren't aware and are 'missing out' but I've been on plenty of trains where I've sat in standard even though the timetable has no advertised first class service.

Many Hertford East trains, for example, where I can't be bothered to move to the right part of whatever turns up.
I guess only if they thought it was declassified when it was the other end that was actually declassified.
 

jon0844

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I guess only if they thought it was declassified when it was the other end that was actually declassified.

The screens and announcements on the platform say first class is at the front. If in doubt, or totally unaware, you'd not go in first at either end.
 

sprunt

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The screens and announcements on the platform say first class is at the front. If in doubt, or totally unaware, you'd not go in first at either end.

Thing is, if an average non-expert traveller sees/hears that, then sees a train arrive with "1st class" written on a section at the back, he's likely to assume that the screen and announcement were incorrect rather than that the section has been declassified. If there is a desire to make sure everybody knows, the announcement should specify that the rear first class area has been declassified.
 

jon0844

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Does it really matter if not everyone is aware that a section is declassified?
 

Haywain

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Does it really matter if not everyone is aware that a section is declassified?
Quite. If this were about one coach of a two coach train, I could understand people feeling there is some gross unfairness going on but it's two thirds of a coach out of more than seven, or more than 11 so hardly a major issue. At the vast majority of stations it will require some effort to get to the back of the train anyway, so most people won't bother even if they do know. And for those who are only going to use Thameslink services once or twice in their lives, does it matter?
 

Hadders

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Quite. If this were about one coach of a two coach train, I could understand people feeling there is some gross unfairness going on but it's two thirds of a coach out of more than seven, or more than 11 so hardly a major issue. At the vast majority of stations it will require some effort to get to the back of the train anyway, so most people won't bother even if they do know. And for those who are only going to use Thameslink services once or twice in their lives, does it matter?

Absolutely correct. Plus if it’s widely advertised everyone will end up trying to use it, potentially causing delays as they walk over 200m to the end of the train, only to be disappointed when only a handful of passengers can be accommodated.
 

mallard

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Does it really matter if not everyone is aware that a section is declassified?

On the type of services being discussed here, probably not. However, I've travelled on Intercity-style services (EMT HSTs) where a first-class carriage was used in formation in place of a standard due to lack of properly maintained stock. In those cases, passengers holding first-class tickets won't get their complimentaries (snacks, drinks, probably wifi, even meals on certain services) while seated in a declassified section and have every reason to complain about the poor-to-nonexistent signage that was the case at the time.
 

PeterC

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I travelled on two GA services last week that had first class accommodation but were shown in the new timetable as being "standard class only". On one service I overhead the guard stating that although it is shown in the TT as being standard class only they have been "instructed" to charge an upgrade fee to any standard class ticket holder using that accommodation from this week. On the other service the guard told me that if the train in question is on a route where first class fares still exist (even though the train in question is advertised as being standard class only) they must again raise an upgrade fee.
Are they explicitly shown as "standard class only"? The PDF timetables that I looked at the other day only showed that some services explicitly had first class accommodation.
 

Haywain

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However, I've travelled on Intercity-style services (EMT HSTs) where a first-class carriage was used in formation in place of a standard due to lack of properly maintained stock. In those cases, passengers holding first-class tickets won't get their complimentaries (snacks, drinks, probably wifi, even meals on certain services) while seated in a declassified section and have every reason to complain about the poor-to-nonexistent signage that was the case at the time.
A couple of years ago I posted an example of this happening and the response on the forum was, essentially, that there was nothing to moan about because they could have gone to the buffet and claimed the freebies!
 

Belperpete

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The arrangements for declassifying first-class are inconsistent and usually very poorly advertised. The problem with not making a policy clear is that it can then easily be misunderstood. For example, when someone who is used to travelling on Thameslink and has learnt that they are allowed to sit in the rear first class, then travels on a Southern or Southeastern service and sits in the rear first class mistakenly thinking that the same applies, and is caught and fined.

At my local station, when boarding the one-a-day London train, it is often necessary to board through the first class and walk back to the standard, most of which is hanging back beyond the platform. On one occasion, as I was walking back, I passed one of the onboard crew. When I stopped her to say that I needed to buy a ticket as the machine on the platform was not working, she told me that I could sit in that first class coach as it was declassified. As there was nothing to say it was declassified, and no announcements were made, I had the coach nearly to myself for the whole trip to London (and no-one ever came to sell me a ticket!). Nice as it was to have a coach to myself, I did wonder what was the point of declassifying a whole coach and then not telling anyone about it!
 

Royston Vasey

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The rear 1st class compartment is permanently declassified on class 700 operated services. All Thameslink services are operated by class 700s.

Thameslink do advertise that first class is only at the front of class 700 services on the screens at stations. Following the information about the train length (the 'A Thameslink service formed of 'X' coaches' message), it then displays '1st class at the front'. The audio announcements also state that 'first class accomodation is at the front of the train' before the 'mind the gap' part of the announcement.

The screens and announcements on the platform say first class is at the front. If in doubt, or totally unaware, you'd not go in first at either end.

Thanks and that's true, 1st class at the front is always shown on the boards.

Does it really matter if not everyone is aware that a section is declassified?

I should think not! ;)
 

Western Sunset

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Travelled from St Pan to West Hampstead on Sat. Just me and one other in the "1st class" section at the rear. Many, many passengers boarded through the rear doors of the unit, but carried on walking to the standard seats beyond.
 

Haywain

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Travelled from St Pan to West Hampstead on Sat. Just me and one other in the "1st class" section at the rear. Many, many passengers boarded through the rear doors of the unit, but carried on walking to the standard seats beyond.
Perhaps they wanted to be nearer the exits at their destination stations.
 
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