However, if established members of a forum such as this are advocating reporting people for showing discretion, then anyone showing discretion really can't win.
I'd hardly say these comments have earned support mind.
However, if established members of a forum such as this are advocating reporting people for showing discretion, then anyone showing discretion really can't win.
That situation is the basis for many complaints.Apparently, but (s)he did then go on to explain their justification for this formal approach, which was "Because it annoys me", so I think we can disregard that as an irrelevant emotional response, can't we?
I'd hardly say these comments have earned support mind.
I understand your reticence, but I do think we're getting silly when we fear for the repercussions of praising someone!. . . i'd of loved to write to FGW to express praise for the said TM's service but was worried it may get him in to trouble for showing good discretion.
There is no reason for you not to write with your praise.
There's also no reason for you to specify the date, the time, the service nor the personnel. But when you have something good to say, then please say it.
PLEASE!
Apparently, but (s)he did then go on to explain their justification for this formal approach, which was "Because it annoys me", so I think we can disregard that as an irrelevant emotional response, can't we?
Remember, there is at least one passenger on here who will write in complaint against discretion being shown against a third party. So at best, all you may do is redress the imbalance. Do it!!!
It is not just an emotional response. Guards/Train Manager's must apply the rules, and whilst it is appropriate to show discretion when necessary, they mustn't be the "softy softy" type.
There is no pressing reason for a Train Manager to allow to OP to travel on an earlier train - "I finished early" is not a pressing reason - and if a Train Manager did do that they should, in my opinion, be reported. The rules must be applied fairly to all, including the rules of Advance tickets.
This is a bit of a needless argument though, as I can guarantee that a Virgin Train Manager will not do that. So I'm not planning on reporting one!
No, I will not write a complaint about discretion being shown against a third party. I will write a complaint if a Guard/Train Manager is allowing people to avoid paying the appropriate fare for their journey for trivial reasons. (But, as I have already said, that will not happen - at least on Virgin - so there is no point arguing about it.)
Its not my assessment that the industry is entierly blameless, though. The Regulatory framework is very culpable.
Privatisation and fragmentation led, inevitably, to competitive pricing, and the restriction of Regulation to only the more flexible fares led to very very cheap Advances. My personal opinion is that the differential between Advances and the variations of Off-Peaks is so wide that it distorts the market and, more importantly, distorts public perception (at the risk of going off topic, it is barely possible to spend an hour in central Newcastle without seeing a dozen huge billboards or bus adverts announcing the £15 Newcastle-London fare on EC. People may suspect that there are higher fares, but it would never become apparent that the unreadable small print refers to a never-seen Anytime price of £143 until they are inspected after boarding the wrong train).
I want to be more sympathetic to front-line staff who have to deal with the framework they are given, but until the Regulator and DfT change the parameters, I cannot be as sympathetic to 'the Industry' as I am to its staff.
That situation is the basis for many complaints.
If you do not succumb to the passenger's demands no matter how unreasonable, you are a jobsworth, have no customer service skills and are rude, etc, etc. Because they are annoyed they will then complain.
Regarding discretion, I have applied it in the past, the passenger wrote in, and I got a letter from the then Chief Exec saying well done!
In FGW we are given a large amount of latitude as TM's. Indeed, I have people to be pulled up in the past for "not being flexible enough".
However, the borderline between "using your discretion" and just saying yes for a quiet life is quite narrow at times, and telling the deserving from the non-deserving is quite an art.
In FGW we are given a large amount of latitude as TM's. Indeed, I have known people to be pulled up in the past for "not being flexible enough".
I will write a complaint if a Guard/Train Manager is allowing people to avoid paying the appropriate fare for their journey for trivial reasons.
It is more that the number of sick grannies who have to be visited by people who do not seem in the least distressed, and decide that granny will survive a few more hours when told they may have to pay a relatively small sum (maybe only £10-15) and possibly change their ticket from 1st class to Std class, leads one to be a wee bit doubtful as to whether Granny is sick at all...The question is what do you class as trivial, and what do I class as trivial?
Personally I would say a family member dying is not trivial, but Flamingo has already said he thinks people would pay anything to get home so may not allow it (on that note, it is easy to say that people would pay anything, but many people simply can't afford to, that is why they would have got an advance ticket in the first place).
I see no problem in asking. If it causes no difficulties, and doesn't deprive anyone of a seat on either train then what's the issue? Should they really be saying you have to sit in your cheap AP seat on a later train because someone that could have booked had to pay more and may be upset?Because it annoys me if people have got the cheek to ask to travel on an earlier service! They should abide by the rules like everyone else.
Whilst a Train Manager should just discretion where appropriate (and that's why I said "depending on the circumstances"), they shouldn't allow people to travel without a ticket just because "they asked politely." It doesn't really matter, though, as I doubt that any Virgin TM would do such a thing.
I have had discretion shown to me by Virgin TMs on more than one occasion. Normally when it's been my fault for not reading the departure boards correctly at Preston and getting on a train to Lancaster that doesn't actually stop there - last time there were at least 9 of us sheepishly explaining to the TM at Oxenholme what had happened (the non-stopping train was delayed and left around the time of the one that normally stops), and she let everyone travel back for free. Would you have reported her for that?
What annoys me is those who have the cheek to ask to travel on an earlier train just because "I finished early." (As the OP was planning on doing.) It is fare evasion - you don't have a valid ticket. (Even though, I know, I know, there isn't a problem if the guard has given permission! I think...)
It is fare evasion
I don't understand why everyone is so shocked. :roll:
I would be very, very, VERY surprised if a Virgin Train Manager allowed someone with an Advance ticket onto an earlier train, and if I ever caught a TM doing so, I would report them. (Depending on the circumstances, of course.)
No, it isn't. That isn't just a differing opinion, that is factually wrong.
It is not fare evasion whatsoever!
Any "authorised person" may allow someone to travel without a valid ticket.
That includes most employees of the Railway.
No, it isn't. That isn't just a differing opinion, that is factually wrong.
Your attempt to justify your actions by putting the final sentence in does not work. You are still stating that you would report a member of staff for exercising their judgement and discretion if you decide that the request was trivial.
In other words, your judgement is superior to a trained and experienced member of staff in deciding what action should be taken on board. What exactly makes your judgement so much better?
It's entirely your decision whether or not to ask whether you may be allowed to travel earlier. Just because you don't wnat to does not mean that no one else is entitled to. Nor does it mean that if someone is given such permission that the member of staff should be reported as if they have committed some sort of crime.
It is not fare evasion whatsoever!
Any "authorised person" may allow someone to travel without a valid ticket.
That includes most employees of the Railway.
I know it's "technically" not fare evasion. But to any ordinary member of the public who pays the correct fare for their journey, the following situation...
- Customer: "Hi. My meeting's finished three hours early. I have a ticket for the 21:10. Would I be able to hop on this train (19:40)?"
- Train Manager: "Yeah, sure. It's very quiet anyway."
...looks an awful lot like fare evasion! The Train Manager shouldn't be doing such a thing for a start, and the customer (who has a complete cheek in my opinion!) is "evading" having to pay the correct fare for their journey.
[*]Customer: "Hi. My meeting's finished three hours early. I have a ticket for the 21:10. Would I be able to hop on this train (19:40)?"
[*]Train Manager: "Yeah, sure. It's very quiet anyway."
[/LIST]
...looks an awful lot like fare evasion! The Train Manager shouldn't be doing such a thing for a start, and the customer (who has a complete cheek in my opinion!) is "evading" having to pay the correct fare for their journey.
evasion [ɪˈveɪʒən]
n
1. the act of evading or escaping, esp from a distasteful duty, responsibility, etc., by trickery, cunning, or illegal means i.e. tax evasion
2. trickery, cunning, or deception used to dodge a question, duty, etc.; means of evading
I would be most unlikely to report what happened at Birmingham, because I do not know the full circumstances. But I would definitely be minded to report a Train Manager who accepted the OP's request!
@All Line Rover: I think one of the reasons why people are so shocked at your stance is that you haven't thought through the implications of your action. So you write in and complain; VT agree that the TM was wrong so they haul him/her in and give further training; TM also tells others what has happened and/or management re-iterate the rules. What do you think happens next time that a TM is asked to show discretion? This time it might be a case that you feel is appropriate but the TM is paranoid about another black mark. It really is a slippery slope and it would be good to see you agree that perhaps your comment was made in haste and won't be carried through.
Also, admirable though your stance of never asking for discretion is, you really are shooting yourself in the foot by not asking. What is the worst thing that can happen? The TM might say no. But, as has been pointed out already, you might actually be doing some people a favour by filling a seat on a much quieter train and allowing someone else to use yours on a busier one.
If someone was to do a Change of Journey instead (assuming both fares paid were equal) and the admin fee of £10 was waived on request, is that fare evasion too??
:roll: