Travel via a non-permitted route when starting from a station without ticket buying facilities

[Bertie the bus]

Mod note: posts moved from this thread

National Rail says there are no fares available from Dorking West to Waterloo, so if it is not a valid route the RPI is probably technically correct and the journey they had just made did start at Guildford as no connections were available as they were not using a permitted route so the tight connection excuse is void.

 

[cactustwirly]

National Rail says there are no fares available from Dorking West to Waterloo, so if it is not a valid route the RPI is probably technically correct and the journey they had just made did start at Guildford as no connections were available as they were not using a permitted route so the tight connection excuse is void.

What's the legal basis behind this?

The ticket is issued from Dorking Stations, and it is a valid route because it is the shortest route from Dorking West to London Waterloo

 

[MrJeeves]

National Rail says there are no fares available from Dorking West to Waterloo, so if it is not a valid route the RPI is probably technically correct and the journey they had just made did start at Guildford as no connections were available as they were not using a permitted route so the tight connection excuse is void.

What?

OP may have wanted to buy Dorking West to Guildford and Guildford to Waterloo tickets, for example.

Just because they aren't following a permitted route, that doesn't mean they can't have wanted to buy tickets that would have made such a route permitted through their combination of tickets.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

National Rail says there are no fares available from Dorking West to Waterloo, so if it is not a valid route the RPI is probably technically correct and the journey they had just made did start at Guildford as no connections were available as they were not using a permitted route so the tight connection excuse is void.

But that doesn't mean there is no journey available. The OP would have travelled 2 stops on the Reading train and changed at Guildford for the Waterloo train

 

[Bertie the bus]

What?

OP may have wanted to buy Dorking West to Guildford and Guildford to Waterloo tickets, for example.

Just because they aren't following a permitted route, that doesn't mean they can't have wanted to buy tickets that would have made such a route permitted through their combination of tickets.

If it isn't a valid route it is 2 different journeys. Dorking West - Guildford where they legitimately travelled without a ticket and Guildford - Waterloo where they didn't. They had an opportunity to purchase a ticket for Guildford - Waterloo.

 

[MrJeeves]

If it isn't a valid route it is 2 different journeys. Dorking West - Guildford where they legitimately travelled without a ticket and Guildford - Waterloo where they didn't. They had an opportunity to purchase a ticket for Guildford - Waterloo.

It is one journey, for which a combination of tickets are required.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It is one journey, for which a combination of tickets are required.

No it wasn't and you can't have a valid connection if you are not on a valid route.

 

[MrJeeves]

No it wasn't and you can't have a valid connection if you are not on a valid route.

So if I combine a season ticket and a ticket from the edge of its validity, it's now two journeys? Or a Travelcard and Boundary Zone ticket? Or basically any split ticket journey? All of these can allow for journeys which would not be permitted on a "normal" through ticket from A to B.

Given that the NRCoT explicitly uses the phrasing of multiple tickets for one journey, it is impossible for anyone to regard your opinion as anything but factually incorrect.

[...] you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use Call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.

The only part that makes a connection between two trains valid or invalid is simply the scheduled time between the first train arriving and the next train departing. Nothing more.

 

[Deafdoggie]

No it wasn't and you can't have a valid connection if you are not on a valid route.

You're saying you can't use split tickets?

 

[jamiearmley]

Purely from a technical point of view, the various tools employed to issue penalty fares and travel incident reports only allow you to select a published fare from the system.

In a case such as this where a fare is not available between the two points travelled, the fair should be manually calculated by adding together the two fares for the journey and this total input into the system prior to the issuing of the notice, together with an explanatory calculation in a descriptive text box elsewhere.

This does however require a level of familiarity with the system and its limitations, and for myself, I will say it took me several years before I discovered that it was possible to complete a notice in this way. There is, of course, also an element of risk involved with manual amendments.

The validity of the notice is not something that I'm qualified to comment on, however I can understand why the staff member issued it from Guildford rather than Dorking.

I would be surprised however, if an additional explanatory note had not been included in the body of the report by the staff member explaining that the passenger had in fact travelled from Dorking, but they were unable to raise the correct fare on the system for this journey.

I wish the OP the best In his endeavours to get this notice overturned.

 

[LYradial]

As a novice to this I see posts emphasising that if you have an itinerary you are ok, but one is not available for this journey,
so it must be seen as two seperated journeys

This should get merged, but just noticed that the forum site will sell splits for travel via Guildford against an itinerary, so I’m obviously wrong

 

[MrJeeves]

This should get merged, but just noticed that the forum site will sell splits for travel via Guildford against an itinerary, so I’m obviously wrong

Edit: whoops, ignore that!

It doesn't matter whether you buy the splits together in one transaction or not, really. I could buy the two tickets at the ticket machine and this would also be fine.

The times you want an itinerary is when you're doing suspect journeys, really. Dorking to Guildford + Guildford to London won't really raise any eyebrows on the journey we're discussing here!

 

[30907]

The ticket is issued from Dorking Stations, and it is a valid route because it is the shortest route from Dorking West to London Waterloo

It is considerably longer than either route via Redhill, let alone via Dorking N (which doesn't count for this purpose).

 

[AlbertBeale]

It is considerably longer than either route via Redhill, let alone via Dorking N (which doesn't count for this purpose).

Why's that?

 

[30907]

Why's that?

Because AIUI a route involving a walk can't (?shouldn't?) be used to determine the shortest route, which is therefore via Redhill.

 

[MrJeeves]

Because AIUI a route involving a walk can't (?shouldn't?) be used to determine the shortest route, which is therefore via Redhill.

It is any journey which is equal to or shorter than the shortest route wholly by rail plus 3 miles that is permitted by default, yes. The shortest route can never be prohibited by a negative easement, either, which created fun journeys when rail replacement buses or fixed links come into play (these are all "0 miles" no matter their distance).

 

[FenMan]

The shortest route can never be prohibited by a negative easement, either, which created fun journeys when rail replacement buses or fixed links come into play (these are all "0 miles" no matter their distance).

The railway has got around this by only offering via Gomshall tickets for a Blackwater to Holmwood itinerary, thereby forcing use of the walking interchange at Dorking.
The shortest route entirely by rail is via Guildford and Leatherhead.

Strangely, Guildford - Holmwood tickets are valid for travel via Leatherhead. D'oh!

 

[MrJeeves]

The railway has got around this by only offering via Gomshall tickets for a Blackwater to Holmwood itinerary, thereby forcing use of the walking interchange at Dorking.

Blackwater - Gatwick - Horsham - Holmwood is also a permitted route, but via Guildford is not, as you state.

 

[david1212]

Given on the original thread the passenger simply asked for a ticket from Dorking West to Waterloo how can there be a non-permitted route ? If a specific ticket type, a ticket specifically only valid route/via X, a ticket specifically not valid route/via Y or a ticket only valid on services operated by Q was requested and this ticket did not cover the route travelled or services actually then a different situation if invalid but even so the seller should simply state this and offer a valid ticket / ticket combination.
If the passenger had travelled way off any reasonable route e.g. via Canterbury but not stated this then potentially an issue but even so an onus on the seller to ask the route the passenger travelled.

If one ticket covering the journey is not available the seller should simply sell a suitable combination. In a perfect world this would be the cheapest combination but determining this requires the seller having access to a website or app. ( Of course if ticket pricing was linear and putting aside small calculation and rounding anomalies the total price for all combinations for the route travelled would be the same .... )