Travelled on the next available train (after cancellation) but being charged.

[najaB]

Thank you very much for that post furlong. As I read it the TSA makes it clear that cancellation of a single train - in itself - does not give the passenger carte blanche to travel on another TOC's train.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Thank you very much for that post furlong. As I read it the TSA makes it clear that cancellation of a single train - in itself - does not give the passenger carte blanche to travel on another TOC's train.

I would agree.

The PIDD policy, which Yorkie and others refer, has similar opinion, stating that automatic ticket acceptance only kicks in once a CSL2 incident is declared.

 

[suzanneparis]

CONCLUSION:

Our railway systems and in particular our train ticketing systems are completely dysfunctional and hopeless and the regulations are totally beyond the understanding of the average passenger.

 

[Merseysider]

CONCLUSION:

Our railway systems and in particular our train ticketing systems are completely dysfunctional and hopeless and the regulations are totally beyond the understanding of the average passenger.

I don't think any reasonable person would go that far.

I do think there needs to be improvements in terms of how remedies are communicated to passengers, and for there to be a common framework (eg if journey will be/has been delayed by 2+ hours, automatic entitlement to use any train).

 

[najaB]

CONCLUSION:

Our railway systems and in particular our train ticketing systems are completely dysfunctional and hopeless and the regulations are totally beyond the understanding of the average passenger.

I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. If your booked train is cancelled, talk to station staff or the guard on the next train that will get you where you need to get. Really not that difficult.

Edit: Bear in mind we started this discussion speaking of Advance tickets that clearly state on them that they are valid on a specific train - if that train is cancelled I don't think it is 'beyond the understanding' of a passenger to ask a question. The TOC-specific walk-up tickets are a little more difficult, but on the routes where they are most common the guard will normally make an announcement something like 'Tickets marked XC only are not valid on this train'. I've witnessed several occasions where passengers have said something like "Oh, sorry I've got on the wrong train" and the guards have given them the option of alighting at the next stop to get the train they should be on or let them stay on board with a warning. I've only once seen a guard actually sell a new ticket, but the passenger was giving him a lot of lip.

 

[suzanneparis]

Except that not everyone knows to do that! I paid a fortune for a ticket I needn't have bought a few years ago. It turns out my ticket would have been valid. Note that the ticket office simply told me to buy a new ticket!!

Furthermore, sometimes ticket offices don't know the answer to ticketing questions - a senior person in charge at one ticket office had to ring up for help and even then wasn't sure that I could travel on the train I wanted to with my ticket!!

So yes, I do believe I am right, the system is broken. The average person doesn't understand the system. And not even all staff understand the system.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you understand all of the regulations?

Do you think the average passenger understands all of the regulations.

Do you think that all ticket office staff understand all of the regulations?

The system is too too complicate. It really is broken.

 

[najaB]

Except that not everyone knows to do that! I paid a fortune for a ticket I needn't have bought a few years ago. It turns out my ticket would have been valid. Note that the ticket office simply told me to buy a new ticket!!

Then you were entitled to a full refund of that ticket.

Furthermore, sometimes ticket offices don't know the answer to ticketing questions - a senior person in charge at one ticket office had to ring up for help and even then wasn't sure that I could travel on the train I wanted to with my ticket!!

What should (but unfortunately doesn't always) happen is to give the passenger the benefit of the doubt, allow travel, and sort it out afterwards. With the notable exception of evening peak travel at Paddington, I honestly believe that is exactly what happens in the vast majority of cases.

So yes, I do believe I am right, the system is broken. The average person doesn't understand the system. And not even all staff understand the system.

The average person doesn't understand most systems. And there's no reason why they should have to - that is what front-line customer service staff are there for.

The system is too too complicate. It really is broken.

Complex and broken are not the same thing.

 

[Hadders]

Our ticketing system is very complex.

I know we don't like comparisons to other industries on this forum but if I want a mortgage, or broadband, or electricity or gas I need to do my homework to find out the best deal.

Rail tickets are no different.

 

[Starmill]

None of those services should have had their variety proliferated in quite the way they have though, Hadders. Ultimately it is confusing your customers out of their money and ought to be more tightly regulated. Indeed, the things that you can say and the hoops you have to jump through in Mortgate Lending are rather more stringent than in the market for rail products.

 

[najaB]

Ultimately it is confusing your customers out of their money and ought to be more tightly regulated.

History has shown that tighter regulation results in higher prices and poorer service overall. Where an industry is tightly regulated there is little incentive to innovate. What's needed is an effective ombudsman rather than a regulator.

 

[Starmill]

History has shown that tighter regulation results in higher prices and poorer service overall. Where an industry is tightly regulated there is little incentive to innovate. What's needed is an effective ombudsman rather than a regulator.

That's one view, there are a lot of others.

 

[najaB]

That's one view, there are a lot of others.

I should have said an effective ombudsman rather than an overly active regulator. There is, of course, a need for some regulation to make rules which prevent overtly unfair practices.

 

[trainophile]

When you sign up for a mortgage, or a gas/electricity contract, you don't do so with a risk of being prosecuted if you make a slight mistake. The worst that can happen is you end up paying more than you would have done if you'd had a better understanding of the terms and conditions.

Back to the matter in hand - the advice to "ask the train manager or guard before boarding" can be easier said than done. It cannot be assumed that he or she will emerge from the rear of the train, it could be anywhere along the length of it, and if you wait at the wrong end and have luggage, in a dwell time of a minute or so you hardly have time to even spot the TM, let alone get yourself close enough to ask the question.

There are many uniformed people on the concourse and platforms of larger stations, and there's not much point approaching e.g. a dispatcher to ask for permission to board a train that is nothing to do with their current duties.

We passengers want to do the right thing, but it isn't always as easy as has been suggested.

 

[najaB]

Back to the matter in hand - the advice to "ask the train manager or guard before boarding" can be easier said than done. It cannot be assumed that he or she will emerge from the rear of the train, it could be anywhere along the length of it, and if you wait at the wrong end and have luggage, in a dwell time of a minute or so you hardly have time to even spot the TM, let alone get yourself close enough to ask the question.

I agree it's not always easy, but if you are turning up a reasonable length of time (say 10 minutes) before your booked train is due to depart, and find that it has been cancelled there aren't many stations where the next train will be running so close behind as to make it impossible to find someone who has authority to give you permission to travel before it departs.

Edit: And before we get into discussion of "how early do you have to get to the station" if, as you posit, you are using an Advance ticket (which means you can't risk missing the train) and you have bulky luggage that would make moving along the platform difficult, 10 minutes isn't an unrealistic expectation rather than running to jump on the train seconds before it departs.

 

[sheff1]

I have no idea how you reached that conclusion. If your booked train is cancelled, talk to station staff or the guard on the next train that will get you where you need to get. Really not that difficult.

Very difficult indeed if the station is unstaffed or the next train, when/if it comes, is DOO !

 

[najaB]

Very difficult indeed if the station is unstaffed and the next train, when/if it comes, is DOO !

In that case, board - nobody's going to check your ticket on board.

Edit: Out of curiosity, how common are specific train Advance tickets on DOO trains at unstaffed stations?

 

[sheff1]

In that case, board - nobody's going to check your ticket on board.

Indeed, and that is exactly what I did, but you said it was "not that difficult" to do something which, in fact, is sometimes impossible and I suspect most passengers would have no idea which trains were DOO.

Edit: The implication, if I understood you correctly, was that the passeger should ask the 'guard' before boarding - once you have boarded and the train is on the move it would be a bit late !

 

[najaB]

Indeed, and that is exactly what I did, but you said it was "not that difficult" to do something which, in fact, is sometimes impossible and I suspect most passengers would have no idea which trains were DOO.

Naturally, there are edge cases - and I'm pretty sure that people who found themselves at an unstaffed station would board the next service regardless of if there was a guard present or not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Edit: The implication, if I understood you correctly, was that the passeger should ask the 'guard' beferor boarding - once you have boarded and the train is on the move it would be a bit late !

If there is a guard they shouldn't dispatch while there is someone trying to catch their attention. And if the guard waves them on from the other end of the train - well, there's your permission to board!

 

[sheff1]

Naturally, there are edge cases - and I'm pretty sure that people who found themselves at an unstaffed station would board the next service regardless of if there was a guard present or not.

I agree but, as others have said, to the 'normal' passenger that also seems like a natural thing to do at a staffed station as well .... which takes us round to the beginning of the thread again

 

[najaB]

I agree but, as others have said, to the 'normal' passenger that also seems like a natural thing to do at a staffed station as well .... which takes us round to the beginning of the thread again

Which is why I've been trying to find something in the rules that makes that an okay thing to do!

 

[bb21]

I am gonna drop a bomb here. I will just say that in my opinion, I agree with suzanneparis that the system is broken, pretty much. The incredible complexity is just part of the problem. That is the easy part.

The difficult part is figuring out how you fix it, and I have yet to hear any proposal that would unquestionably make the system better, for everyone. Until we have that spark of genius, you can moan all you want, we are pretty much stuck with what we have.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think a distinction must be drawn here between tickets that are TOC restricted for technical/internal revenue allocation reasons, and those that are TOC restricted for market reasons/to actually limit the TOCs that customers use.

Imagine we're in a dream world, you hold a London Midland only advance from Crewe to London, and your train is cancelled. Do you think you should be allowed to jump on the next VT that arrives in London almost an hour before your booked train would have?

Imagine we're in a dream world, you hold a Transpennine Express only advance from Newcastle to Manchester, and your train is cancelled. Do you think you should be allowed to take any train to York so as to pick up a Transpennine Express service across the Pennines to Manchester?

Hint: the ticket is only TOC restricted because of the way advances are sold. There aren't any TOC restrictions on walk-up tickets, not even cheaper ones. There are very frequent services between the cities operated by other TOCs to supplement the one per hour operated by TPE, and these trains are all longer than the TPE ones - some very considerably so. The first hypothetical person here would be an hour ahead by taking the wrong train, but the OP's mum's friend was still delayed - just not as delayed as they would have been in the dreams of those who actually make these decisions.

 

[sheff1]

The difficult part is figuring out how you fix it, and I have yet to hear any proposal that would unquestionably make the system better, for everyone. Until we have that spark of genius, you can moan all you want, we are pretty much stuck with what we have.

You will never find a solution to any problem which would unquestionably make a system better for 100% of the people who interact with it. What is often posssible is making things better for the majority whilst minimising the negative impact on the minority. To achieve that, though, involves (i) discussion of options (ii) acceptance that some people must be 'losers' to achieve the gains for the majority.

On this forum (i) is usually derailed straight away by those who state bluntly that any suggestions incorporating ideas from other railway operators "won't work here". This is then followed by the usual suspects saying there must be no losers - far better, in their eyes it would seem, to keep a (broken) system which already makes 'losers' of many people than upset a few people currently making 'cheap' journeys by exploiting anomalies/loopholes.

 

[bb21]

You will never find a solution to any problem which would unquestionably make a system better for 100% of the people who interact with it. What is often posssible is making things better for the majority whilst minimising the negative impact on the minority. To achieve that, though, involves (i) discussion of options (ii) acceptance that some people must be 'losers' to achieve the gains for the majority.

On this forum (i) is usually derailed straight away by those who state bluntly that any suggestions incorporating ideas from other railway operators "won't work here". This is then followed by the usual suspects saying there must be no losers - far better, in their eyes it would seem, to keep a (broken) system which already makes 'losers' of many people than upset a few people currently making 'cheap' journeys by exploiting anomalies/loopholes.

You obviously have been around for long enough to know how things work here.

But seriously, I am still looking for something that would make things better. There are far too many stakeholders involved and too many interests will have to be balanced against each other. I have seen a few interesting proposals, but none really caught my eye. I have a few inclinations as to what directions we need to go down, but am nowhere near as confident that things will definitely be better. Also whose interests should be prioritised over who else's? Always a tricky question.

I don't tend to get involved in threads discussing possible solutions, preferring to be a spectator, mainly for the reasons you gave.

 

[yorkie]

You won't get rid of anomalies in any pricing structure that is market based.

You won't be able to avoid market based pricing without destroying rural routes and/or having to incur enormous expense dealing with peak demands.

If anyone wishes to propose a new pricing structure please do so....in a new thread.

 

[infobleep]

This is why this forum needs a like button

If you access the forum using Tapatalk app, available on iOS and Android, there is a llike button. You need to run the free version and not the out of date pro version that I'm currently running.

 

[najaB]

I am gonna drop a bomb here. I will just say that in my opinion, I agree with suzanneparis that the system is broken, pretty much. The incredible complexity is just part of the problem. That is the easy part.

I see where you're coming from, but saying that something is broken implies that there was a time when it wasn't. When was that for UK rail ticketing? Certainly not in the re-privatised era, and I get the impression that it didn't work for BR. Big four days?

 

[bb21]

I see where you're coming from, but saying that something is broken implies that there was a time when it wasn't. When was that for UK rail ticketing? Certainly not in the re-privatised era, and I get the impression that it didn't work for BR. Big four days?

You probably have to go back to BR days, when mileage based pricing was in place, and integrated ticketing was not, so you might have had to rebook if doing a long journey. (Causes much less confusion but obviously much less choice.)

Of course it will not work simply going back to that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's one view, there are a lot of others.

Quite. Not everyone wants commercial innovation. Many want a quality, understated, punctual and reliable railway at a reasonable price. Nobody would ever call SBB innovative, but it is very popular both within Switzerland and outside it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I see where you're coming from, but saying that something is broken implies that there was a time when it wasn't. When was that for UK rail ticketing? Certainly not in the re-privatised era, and I get the impression that it didn't work for BR. Big four days?

As I'm sure radamfi will confirm, the UK has never been good at this kind of thing, but if you look abroad you will often find answers (and often more questions, to be fair).

 

[najaB]

Quite. Not everyone wants commercial innovation. Many want a quality, understated, punctual and reliable railway at a reasonable price. Nobody would ever call SBB innovative, but it is very popular both within Switzerland and outside it.

When the airline industry was regulated there could be no EasyJet - and they make a point of saying that they are the lowest cost, most punctual airline in Europe.