Travelling first class on a standard ticket

[orpine]

Today I got on a Cross Country at Oxford toward Birmingham. The train was standing room only (that seems to be the norm for these trains leaving Oxford) - but the first class was pretty much empty (10 people?). So I just sat there.

There wasn't a ticket inspector, but there was a concierge offered the free first-class drinks (I refused of course stating I was first class).

What are the rules on this? I just assumed that as I would otherwise be sitting on the floor, there's no justification for me to not sit in an available free seat, even if it's first class. The search doesn't find anything obvious about this, but I'm sure it's been discussed to death before.

 

[Max]

Had you had a ticket check, the policy would vary massively by TOC. You are perfectly within your rights to go and sit in first class on a standard class ticket at the weekend on CrossCountry, but you are required to pay (on demand) the appropriate weekend first supplement. The guard does have the discretion to declassify first class in these circumstances, but my experience (and those of others) is that XC have a policy of not doing this.

On some TOCs you would be liable to pay a penalty fare or might even face prosecution if it is felt that you are deliberately avoiding payment of the correct fare. Of course, the latter of these courses of action can be used on any TOC if the guard/RPI feels that you are sitting in first class deliberately with no intention of paying.

 

[John @ home]

Today I got on a Cross Country at Oxford toward Birmingham. ... first class was pretty much empty ... So I just sat there. ...

What are the rules on this?

If you did indeed travel from Oxford to Birmingham on that train on a Sunday, any train manager you encountered would have asked you to pay a £10 Weekend First Upgrade.

 

[orpine]

Hmmm, interesting. I think it's a bit rubbish when fully 1/4 of the train is dedicated to first class holding a total of 10 passengers (if that) while there are probably 10-20 people *standing* in each of the other three carriages.

I figure as I'm pretty obviously not trying to avoid paying a higher fare (you can see all the people standing on the other side of the door!) I should be ok if it happens again in those circumstances.

What if I just agreed to leave if the conductor was unhappy with my seating location and I didn't want to pay extra for the privilege of actually sitting down?

 

[yorkie]

Hmmm, interesting. I think it's a bit rubbish when fully 1/4 of the train is dedicated to first class holding a total of 10 passengers (if that) while there are probably 10-20 people *standing* in each of the other three carriages.

Agreed.

I figure as I'm pretty obviously not trying to avoid paying a higher fare (you can see all the people standing on the other side of the door!) I should be ok if it happens again in those circumstances.

On XC, you will, of course, "be OK" if you pay the appropriate upgrade (on a weekend, that's £10 as stated earlier, though on a weekday that would be a lot more).

What if I just agreed to leave if the conductor was unhappy with my seating location and I didn't want to pay extra for the privilege of actually sitting down?

Then you could leave your details for the prosecution department to consider what action to take.

 

[orpine]

Actually I got off at Leamington. A £10 "upgrade" almost doubles the cost (it's £13.20 for a std return split at Banbury).

Then you could leave your details for the prosecution department to consider what action to take.

And they wonder why people hate the train companies? Customer service at its best. "We can't meet demand for our service, but if you don't feel like spending 30 minutes standing and paying through the nose for the privilege, we'll punish you".

 

[bb21]

Officially you don't have any justification to sit in First with a Standard ticket because there is no seat left in Standard as your ticket does not entitle you to a seat.

Of course that is not a passenger friendly thing to do.

For example, yesterday morning my EMT HST was substituted with a 7-car Meridian, so Stansard was full and standing including the gangways in two of the carriages whereas First was quite empty. One of the three First Class carriages could have been declassified and many of the standing pax could then be accommodated but it was decided not to do so, resulting in some very unhappy passengers.

 

[snail]

I think it's a bit rubbish when fully 1/4 of the train is dedicated to first class holding a total of 10 passengers (if that) while there are probably 10-20 people *standing* in each of the other three carriages.

Would your opinion be different if you had paid the extra for first class but couldn't get a set because standard class passengers had taken the seats? The reason there are empty seats is because they cost more.

To put it another way, you have a choice of standing in standard or paying extra for a seat. As bb21 says, perfectly legal as your ticket is an entitlement to travel, not to sit down. If you hold a first class ticket and can't find a seat the TOC will usually refund you the difference to downgrade to standard.

 

[Tracky]

Just my opinion, but...

everybody has the right to pay for first class travel and travel in first class

and

If you do pay for first class, others should not get upgraded for free

At weekends First can actually be excellent value. Yes standard is normally overcrowded and yes trains often have what seems like a high proportion of 1st class accommodation but it is how it needs to be for the core service.

 

[jon0844]

And the higher ticket prices can help subsidise the others, so even when you're not in first class you may be benefiting anyway.

 

[Techniquest]

resulting in some very unhappy passengers.

I'd have been straight on Twitter to tweet my complaint to EMT if I'd been on that! Might as well take advantage of one of the wonders of the modern day!

 

[34D]

What if I just agreed to leave if the conductor was unhappy with my seating location and I didn't want to pay extra for the privilege of actually sitting down?

Worst case scenario is a £1,000 fine or three months in prison, and a criminal conviction (which means you won't be allowed in to the USA) in either scenario.

 

[ainsworth74]

Though I would hasten to add that's literally the worst possible outcome and quite unlikely in this specific case.

 

[Goatboy]

a criminal conviction (which means you won't be allowed in to the USA)

Not true, it means you are ineligable to enter under the Visa Waiver Programme and must instead apply for a Visa which in all likelyhood, given a single offence of this nature, will be granted.

 

[34D]

Not true, it means you are ineligable to enter under the Visa Waiver Programme and must instead apply for a Visa which in all likelyhood, given a single offence of this nature, will be granted.

Thank you for adding precision for me.

The point I'm trying to get across to the op is that it is a LOT more serious than he seems to lightheartedly think.

 

[Goatboy]

I agree.

One of the benefits of the additional money paid for First Class is a reasonable expectation of a calm and tranquil environment even at very busy times. There is no excuse for sitting there just because you don't feel you should stand.

 

[orpine]

Would your opinion be different if you had paid the extra for first class but couldn't get a set because standard class passengers had taken the seats? The reason there are empty seats is because they cost more.

No change in opinion because I'd have happily given up the First class seat for someone who had paid for a first class ticket. I think that's fair.
Although thinking about it, if the ticket doesn't guarantee me a seat in standard, why should it guarantee a first class passenger?

There is no excuse for sitting there just because you don't feel you should stand.

How about an idealogical one? The standard passengers literally crammed in to standing, treated like cattle, while the moneyed elite sit comfortably behind their sound-proof door drinking complementary drinks. Remember not everyone has the money for first class, which is probably why it is always empty on every train I ever see (I don't see many commuter trains).
Fortunately my local line (Chiltern) doesn't have First Class, yet somehow still manages to make a go of it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Although thinking about it, if the ticket doesn't guarantee me a seat in standard, why should it guarantee a first class passenger?

It doesn't. If first class is full with first class fare paying passengers then anyone on a first class ticket would have to stand.

How about an idealogical one? The standard passengers literally crammed in to standing, treated like cattle, while the moneyed elite sit comfortably behind their sound-proof door drinking complementary drinks. Remember not everyone has the money for first class, which is probably why it is always empty on every train I ever see (I don't see many commuter trains).

I don't consider myself 'moneyed elite' (there's no way I can on my salary) yet I can still afford to travel first class semi-regularly so I reject the premise that it's only available to an elite few.

But either way an ideological defence doesn't change the fact that what you did was not permitted and could have had serious consquences outlined above. I would strongly recommend that you do not undertake this course of action in the future as it could well have a very poor outcome for yourself.

 

[NSEFAN]

How about an idealogical one? The standard passengers literally crammed in to standing, treated like cattle, while the moneyed elite sit comfortably behind their sound-proof door drinking complementary drinks. Remember not everyone has the money for first class, which is probably why it is always empty on every train I ever see (I don't see many commuter trains). Fortunately my local line (Chiltern) doesn't have First Class, yet somehow still manages to make a go of it.

The difference between actual cattle and passengers is that cattle don't choose to cram themselves onto a busy vehicle.

Chiltern's decision to get rid of first class was a good one in my opinion. A short commuter route doesn't really need first class, as it will be full during the peak and empty in the off peak. Intercity operators however should be allowed to offer different levels of service for those who wish to pay for the premium.

If first class is quiet like you said, then TOCs will often sell cheap advance fares to fill seats. I have done this in the past on XC and the prices were very reasonable (I recall £6 for a Reading-Southampton first advance single).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Standard class being full doesn't give you the entitlement to go and sit in first class. The fact that standard class is full is irrelevant to the capacity in first class.

XC do not declassify first class because the first class carriage is so small. There would be very little benefit to doing it, but it would upset their first class ticket holders (and cost them money if they can't get a seat).

As for EMT not declassifying one of the first class carriages, that is poor customer service as they clearly did have the spare capacity, with no danger of first class ticket holders being disadvantaged.

 

[orpine]

I don't consider myself 'moneyed elite' (there's no way I can on my salary) yet I can still afford to travel first class semi-regularly so I reject the premise that it's only available to an elite few.

Hehe, fair point. But when you consider that only about 2% of the people on the train had first class tickets, it's clear that very few people are interested in first class as a matter of course (rather than when work is paying for them). At least for this route.

Ah well, I know for next time.

 

[Muzer]

The difference between actual cattle and passengers is that cattle don't choose to cram themselves onto a busy vehicle.

Chiltern's decision to get rid of first class was a good one in my opinion. A short commuter route doesn't really need first class, as it will be full during the peak and empty in the off peak. Intercity operators however should be allowed to offer different levels of service for those who wish to pay for the premium.

If first class is quiet like you said, then TOCs will often sell cheap advance fares to fill seats. I have done this in the past on XC and the prices were very reasonable (I recall £6 for a Reading-Southampton first advance single).

What actually *is* this business zone thing they have? Is it just first class by a different name, or is it actually significantly different?

 

[ainsworth74]

What actually *is* this business zone thing they have? Is it just first class by a different name, or is it actually significantly different?

It's first class by another name and you buy it as a supplement on board rather than buying a first class ticket (though I believe first class tickets are valid with no extra charge). It gets you 2+1 comfy seating, free wi-fi, I believe a bacon bun in the morning and tea/coffee.

Also know as: first class.

 

[maniacmartin]

Ah Business Zone. It's how businessmen can claim first class travel on expenses, even if their employers forbid purchasing of First Class tickets on expenses

 

[ainsworth74]

Very similar to East Coast's Scottish Executive package which is a standard class ticket which includes a complimentary upgrade to first class in both directions. Quite useful for the businessman or woman who isn't allowed to claim first class tickets anymore.

 

[Seacook]

It's first class by another name and you buy it as a supplement on board rather than buying a first class ticket (though I believe first class tickets are valid with no extra charge). It gets you 2+1 comfy seating, free wi-fi, I believe a bacon bun in the morning and tea/coffee.

Also know as: first class.

The only time I have travelled in the business zone, hot drinks were complimentary but food was not. I had a first class ALR and did not have to pay a supplement.

 

[NSEFAN]

It's first class by another name and you buy it as a supplement on board rather than buying a first class ticket (though I believe first class tickets are valid with no extra charge). It gets you 2+1 comfy seating, free wi-fi, I believe a bacon bun in the morning and tea/coffee.

Also know as: first class.

IIRC free wifi is on all of Chiltern's class 168 and locohauled sets for all passengers to use, but I'm happy to be corrected on that.

The key point here is that the business zone is only on the Mk3 loco hauled sets which, except for a couple of peak workings, are confined to fast Birmingham trains. The shorter commuting trips out of Marylebone have no first class at all, which is in my opinion how things should be on urban and suburban transport.

Chiltern are quite fortunate that their main markets are fairly isolated. You have urban travel from Aylesbury/Bicester-London and longer-distance travel from Kidderminster/Birmingham/Solihull-London. This allows them to have different fleets for different markets. Cross Country don't have this privilege, as one train from Penzance-Aberdeen will be serving multiple markets as it makes its way through the country.

So basically, XC have to serve different markets with one type of train! I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if a spare unit could be added/removed as required, but thanks to the short-sightedness of Virgin/the SRA, we are stuck with a small fleet for the time being. Hopefully when the baby Pendos arrive, Virgin will show mercy and allow XC to have some more Super Vomiters.

 

[LateThanNever]

Would your opinion be different if you had paid the extra for first class but couldn't get a set because standard class passengers had taken the seats? The reason there are empty seats is because they cost more.

To put it another way, you have a choice of standing in standard or paying extra for a seat. As bb21 says, perfectly legal as your ticket is an entitlement to travel, not to sit down. If you hold a first class ticket and can't find a seat the TOC will usually refund you the difference to downgrade to standard.

Reckon then that the 'legal' solution might be just to stand in the first class coach where there is room so to do!?

 

[bb21]

IIRC free wifi is on all of Chiltern's class 168 and locohauled sets for all passengers to use, but I'm happy to be corrected on that.

That's correct.

Reckon then that the 'legal' solution might be just to stand in the first class coach where there is room so to do!?

No. You are not permitted to occupy any part of First Class accommodation with a Standard Class ticket without permission.

 

[LateThanNever]

That's correct.



No. You are not permitted to occupy any part of First Class accommodation with a Standard Class ticket without permission.

Depends what occupy means. If walking through (which surely cannot be illegal) is the only way to get to second class and the volume of people - which on XC often makes the tube seem comfortable - prevents you from travelling further, as it has to me on more than one occasion when on XC, then I reckon I have no choice and I would be delighted to let the Cross Country 'employee' try to show me to my accomodation!