Travelling first class on a standard ticket

[jon0844]

Anyone should be able to buy a first advance ticket if it's cheaper (or even, I'd say, only different in price by a small percentage).

I am not against people making more effective/productive use of their time on a train. Some MPs work bloody hard I have no doubt.

 

[bb21]

It is bloody ridiculous that people are not allowed to buy First Advances if they are the cheapest on offer. This is a perfect example of red-tape over common sense.

*Off-topic* Reminds me of 1970's China (and other communist states). You were not allowed to travel in First or Second Class on the top deck of ships (and flights, etc), even if you can afford it, without an authorisation letter. Peasants were only allowed in Third, Fourth and Fifth Class accommodation while at sea.

 

[OLJR]

It is bloody ridiculous that people are not allowed to buy First Advances if they are the cheapest on offer. This is a perfect example of red-tape over common sense.

*Off-topic* Reminds me of 1970's China (and other communist states). You were not allowed to travel in First or Second Class on the top deck of ships (and flights, etc), even if you can afford it, without an authorisation letter. Peasants were only allowed in Third, Fourth and Fifth Class accommodation while at sea.

The justification (not that I would agree with it) is that the cost of audit and management time to prove that 1ST is cheaper than STD in a particular case does not justify the saving.

 

[Deerfold]

The justification (not that I would agree with it) is that the cost of audit and management time to prove that 1ST is cheaper than STD in a particular case does not justify the saving.

Indeed. But I'd expect any audit to be spot checks, rather than checking every ticket.

Anyhow in most of my wife's cases it'd be obvious that ~£100 for two way 1st class travel between Yorkshire and London would beat a STD anytime ticket.

Incidentally my wife's annual expense claims were selected for audit 3 times in 7 years with nothing out of order ever being turned up.

 

[revenueadvice]

I find it amazing that First Capital Connect is slammed so much for not being customer friendly because we do not allow standard class tickets in First Class and they only have small first class compartments. EMT had 3 carriages of First Class and they did not declassify!

Anyway back to the OP's question. Byelaw 19.

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

Oh and FCC have instructed RPI's not to penalty or prosecute people standing in First class with standard tickets on packed trains for customer service reasons. So only those taking a first class seat will be penalty fared.

 

[jon0844]

FCC certainly can and have declassified short formed trains, and on the TL side, they have declassified one of the two first class compartments permanently on the 377/5s.

I guess targeting only those sitting down in first class when the train is very crowded is an acceptable workaround, as long as RPIs are still incredibly tough on those that opted to sit down (or are seen standing up when the RPIs approach).

For clarification, I don't include a train that's busy but not so crowded that someone couldn't stand somewhere in standard - or an Intercity train.

 

[Wolfie]

The justification (not that I would agree with it) is that the cost of audit and management time to prove that 1ST is cheaper than STD in a particular case does not justify the saving.

Actually it is not. What it is about is allowing politicians to boast to the Daily Heil and other similar rags that they have stopped the public sector (but not themselves!) travelling 1st class.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and as a direct result I and other colleagues have at times refused to travel and/or insisted on an overnight stay. If they think I am travelling on business in rush hour on say FGW services to Bristol and standing all the way I suggest they find someone else to go!

 

[tsr]

I find it amazing that First Capital Connect is slammed so much for not being customer friendly because we do not allow standard class tickets in First Class and they only have small first class compartments. EMT had 3 carriages of First Class and they did not declassify!

Last winter, some of my use of EMT's services included a heavily delayed journey from St Pancras to Derby. Due to a lack of direct trains to Derby (yep, things were that bad) I had to change at Leicester. The available Meridian for the final leg of the journey was so full that any and all passengers were forced into First Class accommodation, and then into the seats, because of the sheer volume of standing passengers piling onto the train. No formal declassification was in use, although the guard was urging passengers to move right down inside all the available coaches.

You usually find that a huge crowd that's waited on a platform for a good while in sub-zero temperatures will go on to occupy whatever available space there is on whatever train turns up. I have seen similar on Southern services a couple of times, but the size, positioning and separation of First Class is somewhat more conducive to these types of problems.

Outside of exceptional circumstances like these, however, I would strongly argue in favour of penalties for those who have made the choice to sit in First Class without a valid ticket. If you want an almost-guaranteed seat, buy the correct ticket. I can't see a fuss being made on a genuinely crush-loaded train during major disruption, but anything else and you should seek permission or face the legally-enforceable consequences.

 

[jon0844]

On an Intercity service, declassifying first class will invariably mean giving a part-refund to those who had a first class ticket, so there IS a cost to the TOC.

I've only been on one East Coast train where this happened (train before was cancelled) and the TM was making sure that those with first class tickets were to contact staff to presumably get their ticket endorsed for a later claim.

Not sure how this would work on a DOO train with first class, but FCC will declassify and when I've heard the driver relay this information to passengers there has been no mention of any claim that can be made.

 

[rdeez]

Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but advance tickets on XC are available (on nearly every service) as close as 10 minutes to departure time.

Would it not therefore make sense for someone who uses their services regularly and is aware of how busy they become to take advantage of this - as advances come with a seat reservation?!

Further if you find that no advances are available at all you could probably assume that particular service is rammed and look for an alternative.

 

[Flamingo]

Oh, and as a direct result I and other colleagues have at times refused to travel and/or insisted on an overnight stay. If they think I am travelling on business in rush hour on say FGW services to Bristol and standing all the way I suggest they find someone else to go!

Except in times of severe disruption, I don't think I have ever seen passengers on peak trains having to stand all the way to Bristol. Indeed, most peak-time trains have capicity after Reading, and are relatively empty after Swindon or Newbury, in my experience. It'll be the Friday evening just after peak trains that will be busiest.

 

[alastair]

Actually it is not. What it is about is allowing politicians to boast to the Daily Heil and other similar rags that they have stopped the public sector (but not themselves!) travelling 1st class.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and as a direct result I and other colleagues have at times refused to travel and/or insisted on an overnight stay. If they think I am travelling on business in rush hour on say FGW services to Bristol and standing all the way I suggest they find someone else to go!

Oh come on,how often would you have to stand after Reading. And anyway,why not book a seat like other people do?

 

[OLJR]

Indeed. But I'd expect any audit to be spot checks, rather than checking every ticket.

Ultimately I think it boils down to whether or not a company trusts its employees. Unfortunately some don't.

Actually it is not. What it is about is allowing politicians to boast to the Daily Heil and other similar rags that they have stopped the public sector (but not themselves!) travelling 1st class.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and as a direct result I and other colleagues have at times refused to travel and/or insisted on an overnight stay. If they think I am travelling on business in rush hour on say FGW services to Bristol and standing all the way I suggest they find someone else to go!

For public sector certainly. I was thinking more of the private sector though.

One of my friends works at TfL. They won't fly him business class longhaul to do his lucrative consulting work because they are so terrified of the FoI requests asking how much was spent on premium travel. The upgrade from premium economy to business would be a trivial % of his fees but it still cannot be done!

What they do instead is ship him over well ahead of time and he gets a mini-holiday. Then on the way back he gets some more free holiday in lieu of the flying time. These of course do not show up in the FoI statistics about premium travel!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On an Intercity service, declassifying first class will invariably mean giving a part-refund to those who had a first class ticket, so there IS a cost to the TOC.

I've only been on one East Coast train where this happened

I experienced this on East Coast too. Was in a group of three so we were already travelling on 2/3 fare.

We did outbound Newcastle to King's Cross and it was delayed 31 minutes so we got 50% of the outbound sector back. Returning from King's Cross the train was on time but declassified and we got 100% back, well more than expected! The result was that the three of us enjoyed a 1ST return to London for only about GBP 15 each!

 

[Temple Meads]

People on benefits sure can't afford it, folks on minimum wage would struggle to except as a treat (and then they'd have to prioritise it over other treats).

I disagree - myself and my immediate family are reliant on benefits, and although I couldn't justify first class for walk up journeys, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable booking first class advances for longer distance journeys.

 

[6Gman]

Hmmm, interesting. I think it's a bit rubbish when fully 1/4 of the train is dedicated to first class holding a total of 10 passengers (if that) while there are probably 10-20 people *standing* in each of the other three carriages.

I figure as I'm pretty obviously not trying to avoid paying a higher fare (you can see all the people standing on the other side of the door!) I should be ok if it happens again in those circumstances.

What if I just agreed to leave if the conductor was unhappy with my seating location and I didn't want to pay extra for the privilege of actually sitting down?

Doesn't really matter what you think.

Rules is rules.

 

[Flamingo]

Hmmm, interesting. I think it's a bit rubbish when fully 1/4 of the train is dedicated to first class holding a total of 10 passengers (if that) while there are probably 10-20 people *standing* in each of the other three carriages.

I figure as I'm pretty obviously not trying to avoid paying a higher fare (you can see all the people standing on the other side of the door!) I should be ok if it happens again in those circumstances.

What if I just agreed to leave if the conductor was unhappy with my seating location and I didn't want to pay extra for the privilege of actually sitting down?

All I would say is that there are a lot of assumptions in your post, some of which could prove very expensive if they are wrong...