Travelling from London Victoria with a Thameslink ticket

[ianBR]

Hi - if I have a monthly season ticket from Brighton to London Thameslink but want to travel home from London Victoria what's the best way to do this.

At evening peak rush hour times the only trains from Victoria to Brighton are Gatwick Express.

Can I just buy a single to east croydon where my season ticket would takeover (despite the fact the Gatwick Express doesn't stop there). or am I forced to buy a rip-off Gatwick Express only single fare to Gatwick?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi - if I have a monthly season ticket from Brighton to London Thameslink but want to travel home from London Victoria what's the best way to do this.

At evening peak rush hour times the only trains from Victoria to Brighton are Gatwick Express.

Can I just buy a single to east croydon where my season ticket would takeover (despite the fact the Gatwick Express doesn't stop there). or am I forced to buy a rip-off Gatwick Express only single fare to Gatwick?

The validity of your season ticket will not be restricted by any route restrictions such as "Thameslink only"; these are ineffectual as Thameslink is the same company as Gatwick Express, they are just different trading names!

If there are any restrictions on the use of your season ticket, it will be from the fact that your season ticket is to London Thameslink. I'm afraid I don't know that maze of validity well enough to say what the first station that that's valid from if coming from Victoria (and it doesn't help that the routieng Guide maps are a little unclear), however, whatever that first station is, you can just buy a ticket from Victoria to there and then take any train regardless of if it stops at the changeover point.

That's becauee you don't need to call at the changeover point when combining tickets with a season ticket. Of course, whether you will face any issues being let onto a "Gatwick Express" branded service is another question. If you are made to pay an additional fare, or are issued with a Penalty Fare, I would accept these and then fight it later. So far GTR have backed down on every known contested case.

 

[OvergroundMatt]

Dare I ask the obvious question - why would you buy a season ticket to London Thameslink if what you really want to do is commute from London Victoria?!

 

[andrewkeith5]

Some people will tell you it's fine with what you've got, but you're opening yourself up to quite a bit of pain if you want to do that.

East Croydon is where you'll need to get a separate ticket if you don't want the hassle - or just buy an Any Permitted or a Travelcard with any routeing, then it isn't a problem.

In theory yes all you need in your situation is a single Victoria to East Croydon, going back to your original question! But I'm interested as to why you would want to? If it's going to be a regular thing, get a different season ticket. If it's just for during disruption, then usually ticket acceptance is good.

 

[Hadders]

There are a number of options for season tickets between Brighton and London:

Brighton - London Thameslink £99.20 per week. Valid to Elephant & Castle, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, St Pancras
Brighton - London Terminals (Thameslink Only) £99.20 per week Valid to Cannon Street, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Charing Cross, Victoria, Waterloo and Vauxhall. Only intended to be valid on Thameslink branded services (which don't serve many of the terminals listed) but legally can be used on any trains operated by GTR (although expect hassle).
Brighton - London Terminals (Any Permitted) £117.40 Valid to Cannon Street, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Charing Cross, Victoria, Waterloo and Vauxhall.
Brighton - London Victoria (Any Permitted) £108.30. Valid to Victoria only.

The OP needs to weigh up the best option taking into account normal travel patterns, price and appetite for hassle.

 

[Dent]

Brighton - London Terminals (Thameslink Only) £99.20 per week Valid to Cannon Street, London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Charing Cross, Victoria, Waterloo and Vauxhall. Only intended to be valid on Thameslink branded services (which don't serve many of the terminals listed) but legally can be used on any trains operated by GTR (although expect hassle).

Which trains operated by GTR serve Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Vauxhall or Waterloo?

 

[ianBR]

Dare I ask the obvious question - why would you buy a season ticket to London Thameslink if what you really want to do is commute from London Victoria?!

I don't want to commute from Victoria. It's just even with a regular commute from Blackfriars you occasionally might want to travel from Victoria if you've gone out after work near there given you would get home much quicker. Both times I've done that I've ended up paying the full gatwick express fare hence my query.


Although on a separate but related interesting point I notice that when buying any season ticket to London Farringdon/St Pancras/London Thameslink it says "Not Underground". However if you buy a season ticket to "City Thameslink" it doesn't have this "Not Underground" restriction, and if I've read the routeing guide correctly it suggests brighton to city thameslink is valid via london bridge or victoria. Is this an oversight in the ticketing system? And would it ever be valid via Victoria?

 

[kieron]

Can I just buy a single to east croydon where my season ticket would takeover (despite the fact the Gatwick Express doesn't stop there). or am I forced to buy a rip-off Gatwick Express only single fare to Gatwick?

Your ticket has a route of "not Underground", I take it? Gatwick Express isn't London Underground, so you're fine to use it on a valid route.

The next question is probably "What will staff at Victoria accept?". I can't answer that as I haven't been on a Gatwick Express train, but they certainly should accept your season ticket. If you go to nationalrail.co.uk, and request a journey from Elephant & Castle to Brighton via Denmark Hill*, it will probably recommend a ticket from London Thameslink with a "not Underground" route, and will probably show this with a route where you change at Denmark Hill and Victoria.

As you have a season ticket, you can miss off the start of your journey from London Thameslink to Brighton, and join your first train at Victoria. As the people behind Gatwick Express accept the National Rail Conditions of Travel, these direct you to the routeing guide for valid route calculations, and this directs you to nationalrail.co.uk for any route you're unsure about, they should accept this as being a valid route for your ticket.

* You may need to delete any nationalrai.co.uk cookies you have for this link to open correctly.

 

[Starmill]

Dare I ask the obvious question - why would you buy a season ticket to London Thameslink if what you really want to do is commute from London Victoria?!

I mean do you really need to ask? The customer has bought the ticket that they have presumably been advised is suitable for their needs. They are enquiring about one journey they'd like to make (I do wonder where you got the idea about commuting from) and they've told us what ticket they have and what they want to do. That was enough for nearly everyone else, who tried to help. I am certain there is a reason and that the OP would not waste all of our time needlessly by doing what you're implying.

For a start lots of tickets to London Thameslink actually cost more than to London Victoria (or London Terminals) so it is hardly justifiable to ask the customer to pay more again for this one journey. As far as I am able to determine this is a permitted route from stations in London Thameslink to Brighton. If the ticket is routed 'Not Underground', it is not valid on trains operated by London Underground.

In addition and as Kieron has expressed National Rail Enquiries is quite happy for travel from stations in London Thameslink to Brighton to be via London Victoria. The same applies for via London Waterloo and Clapham Junction, so a ticket all the way to East Croydon is certainly further than necessary.

 

[maniacmartin]

My limited experience with using NOT UNDERGROUND routed tickets to Thameslink stations is that you will have to work hard to persuade gateline staff to accept it, as it is not intended to be used via Victoria.

Combining your season with a single to East Croydon as you suggest is one option which is undoubtedly valid, even if the train passes through East Croydon non-stop

 

[JonathanH]

My limited experience with using NOT UNDERGROUND routed tickets to Thameslink stations is that you will have to work hard to persuade gateline staff to accept it, as it is not intended to be used via Victoria.

Combining your season with a single to East Croydon as you suggest is one option which is undoubtedly valid, even if the train passes through East Croydon non-stop

Arguably a London Thameslink ticket is first valid from Streatham Common rather than East Croydon.

 

[button_boxer]

Would City Thameslink to Brighton via Clapham Junction be a valid route - you can do it entirely by rail with no doubling back (via London Bridge and Waterloo East)? If so then a Victoria to Clapham Junction single may be sufficient to bridge the gap.

 

[Starmill]

Would City Thameslink to Brighton via Clapham Junction be a valid route - you can do it entirely by rail with no doubling back (via London Bridge and Waterloo East)? If so then a Victoria to Clapham Junction single may be sufficient to bridge the gap.

Yes. This is correct as I pointed out in my post.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Really, the best option realistically is to go back on the Circle/District (which you will have to pay for) to Blackfriars and board there. Or be ready to have occasional deep arguments with the on-board staff about whether your London Thameslink season is actually valid on GX between VIC and ECR. Despite the advice on this forum, most staff wouldn't accept it. The interpretation you have been given is controversial (essentially whether GTR is actually, legally, one TOC or three). But time for DfT to sort this whole mess out....

 

[A Challenge]

Shouldn't it be 1 TOC or 4 (SN, GX, GN, TL)?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Really, the best option realistically is to go back on the Circle/District (which you will have to pay for) to Blackfriars and board there. Or be ready to have occasional deep arguments with the on-board staff about whether your London Thameslink season is actually valid on GX between VIC and ECR. Despite the advice on this forum, most staff wouldn't accept it. The interpretation you have been given is controversial (essentially whether GTR is actually, legally, one TOC or three). But time for DfT to sort this whole mess out....

There's no controversy over whether GTR is one TOC or four. It is one limited company, with (at least) four trading names. In the context of the limits which the NRCoT sets on how ticket restrictions are allowed to function, the different trading names have no impact on the validity of tickets. They only hold significance for other purposes, e.g. advertising or branding purposes.

Of course, as you say, not all rail staff will respect the contractual rights of ticket holders. Unfortunately there is not sufficient training (and, ideally, compliance auditing) to ensure that all staff do. But that does not change the legal position: it merely changes the advice (or caveats to advice) which it is wise to give. If the OP is aware of the difficulties they may face in exercising their contractual rights, but nevertheless decides to quite rightfully exercise them, that is entirely their decision.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Shouldn't it be 1 TOC or 4 (SN, GX, GN, TL)?

Sorry, you are quite right. It's 4. I always forget GN...

 

[Surreytraveller]

You could by a ticket to Streatham Common for the purposes of a split rather than East Croydon, as some Thameslink trains are routed that way

 

[kieron]

The interpretation you have been given is controversial (essentially whether GTR is actually, legally, one TOC or three). But time for DfT to sort this whole mess out....

I realise that some people really enjoy discussing GTR ticket restrictions, but it doesn't have any bearing on this thread. ianBR does not have a "Thameslink only" ticket, so it doesn't matter who runs the train he/she catches, or what colour it is.

I wonder, though, would it be convenient to catch a Southern train to Croydon or Gatwick or wherever, and switch to a Brighton one there? If the Southern staff are less keen on denying travel to people with valid tickets than the Gatwick Express ones are, then this may save time overall despite the longer journey.

 

[clagmonster]

Routeing Permissions for London Group - Brighton Group are:
LB, VB
http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/yellow_pages.pdf

LB allows:
Blackfriars - Elephant & Castle - Herne Hill - Tulse Hill - Streatham Group
http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps

Unless there is a route from a London Thameslink station to Clapham Junction without passing through another routeing point, then the additional fare which will need to be paid will be that from London Terminals to Streatham Common, at which point the season becomes valid. This is equally valid on any brand of the GTR operation, though I can imagine that combination causing issues at the Gatwick Express branded gateline.

 

[higthomas]

Routeing Permissions for London Group - Brighton Group are:
LB, VB
http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/yellow_pages.pdf

LB allows:
Blackfriars - Elephant & Castle - Herne Hill - Tulse Hill - Streatham Group
http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps

Unless there is a route from a London Thameslink station to Clapham Junction without passing through another routeing point, then the additional fare which will need to be paid will be that from London Terminals to Streatham Common, at which point the season becomes valid. This is equally valid on any brand of the GTR operation, though I can imagine that combination causing issues at the Gatwick Express branded gateline.

Now, can someone explain to me why e.g. London Thameslink-London Bridge-Waterloo East-Waterloo-Clapham Junction-Brighton isn't permitted by map LB. All that map shows is a "London Group" to Clapham junction link, and one is allowed to pass through other group stations on the way...
(I'm sure it's not allowed, but I can't immediately give a reason.)

 

[A Challenge]

A London Terminals ticket would be valid for Claphan Junction - Waterloo - Waterloo East - London Bridge - Blackfriars from the SWML, and presumably the BML as well, though I'm not sure about on London Thameslink

 

[methethpropbut]

At least one website is giving me an itinerary Brighton - London Victoria - Herne Hill - Farringdon for the £18.10 Brighton - London Thameslink Off-Peak Day Single. Take that for what you will

 

[JB_B]

At least one website is giving me an itinerary Brighton - London Victoria - Herne Hill - Farringdon for the £18.10 Brighton - London Thameslink Off-Peak Day Single. Take that for what you will

I can't see anything wrong with that (route: Not Underground) although it's presumably not what was intended. I'd be keeping my itinerary with me.

 

[clagmonster]

No doubling back, clearly a mapped route. I'd say good spot, can't see anything wrong with it. Make it a Victoria - Clapham ticket required with theL London Thameslink season.

Now, can someone explain to me why e.g. London Thameslink-London Bridge-Waterloo East-Waterloo-Clapham Junction-Brighton isn't permitted by map LB. All that map shows is a "London Group" to Clapham junction link, and one is allowed to pass through other group stations on the way...
(I'm sure it's not allowed, but I can't immediately give a reason.)

 

[A Challenge]

No doubling back, clearly a mapped route. I'd say good spot, can't see anything wrong with it. Make it a Victoria - Clapham ticket required with theL London Thameslink season.

This (above yours) implies nothing is needed, if you can get an itinerary for it (and of course that you have the view that stopping short is valid when the route is only valid on the itinerary).

I can't see anything wrong with that (route: Not Underground) although it's presumably not what was intended. I'd be keeping my itinerary with me.

 

[clagmonster]

If obtaining a ticket through an online booking website and using an itinerary that it provides, then yes, contractually the ticket must be accepted. That is not the case if the ticket is obtained by other means, the Routeing Guide must be followed.

Using the routes in the Routeing Guide, the only argument that I can see for the ticket be valid via Victoria would be that using routeing permission LB, you could go: Blackfriars - Elephant & Castle - Herne Hill - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Victoria - Clapham Jn and on to Brighton. I would be uncomfortable using that argument myself as you are leaving then subsequently re-entering the London Group, hence as I wouldn't be comfortable myself I did not give the advice.

 

[JB_B]

If obtaining a ticket through an online booking website and using an itinerary that it provides, then yes, contractually the ticket must be accepted. That is not the case if the ticket is obtained by other means, the Routeing Guide must be followed.

Using the routes in the Routeing Guide, the only argument that I can see for the ticket be valid via Victoria would be that using routeing permission LB, you could go: Blackfriars - Elephant & Castle - Herne Hill - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Victoria - Clapham Jn and on to Brighton. I would be uncomfortable using that argument myself as you are leaving then subsequently re-entering the London Group, hence as I wouldn't be comfortable myself I did not give the advice.

There's no prohibition on re-entering a group as long as you avoid passing through the same station twice.

Attempting to do this in practice may well result in difficulties.

( This was discussed in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-bhm-group-season-ticket.158061/#post-3246734 )

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If obtaining a ticket through an online booking website and using an itinerary that it provides, then yes, contractually the ticket must be accepted. That is not the case if the ticket is obtained by other means, the Routeing Guide must be followed.

Using the routes in the Routeing Guide, the only argument that I can see for the ticket be valid via Victoria would be that using routeing permission LB, you could go: Blackfriars - Elephant & Castle - Herne Hill - Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye - Victoria - Clapham Jn and on to Brighton. I would be uncomfortable using that argument myself as you are leaving then subsequently re-entering the London Group, hence as I wouldn't be comfortable myself I did not give the advice.

The Routeing Guide maps only show Routeing Points or Routeing Point Groups (well, sometimes they show individual stations but that is not relevant here). The prohibition on doubling back when tracing a mapped route is on doubling back through the same station - note, this has nothing to do with Routeing Points or Routeing Point Groups.

So the fact that you exit and subsequently re-enter the London Group is itself no obstacle to that being a valid route. Other things, however, could be.

 

[kieron]

Is it worth reiterating that a London Thameslink-Brighton ticket can be used to travel from Elephant & Castle to Brighton using a permitted route (such as the one in post 8)?

If you start from that position, then the question of whether you are allowed to travel from London Bridge (or wherever) to Brighton via Victoria simply doesn't arise.