Travelling from Waterloo East, Ticket not available from machine

[philthetube]

I make a journey occasionally from Harrow on the Hill to Blackheath, the obvious route is via Met and jubilee lines to Southwark then Waterloo east to Blackheath.

I have a L.T. staff pass and a priv so do not have an opportunity to buy a ticket on route or at Waterloo East, Machines only. I have been refused acess through the gateline because I do not have a ticket and told that I have to walk to Waterloo to get one.

Surely this cannot be correct?

 

[alistairlees]

The problem here is that priv discounts are only available at ticket offices, so I can't see what else you can do. Maybe interchange to the Bakerloo line and take that to Charing Cross, then buy your priv discount ticket there? It's the same price, and less walking.

 

[philthetube]

Do I have to have a ticket at all in these circumstances or should I be allowed through though, to pay at the first opportunity, bearing in mind that the fare is only around £1.20 return so I am not trying to get out of paying.

 

[Starmill]

According to National Rail Enquiries (the "definitive source of customer information"), London Waterloo East does not have a ticket office.

Perhaps you could write to Southeastern explaining that you wish to travel on one of their trains from a station with a ticket machine but no ticket office, and ask what you should do about purchasing a ticket which is unavailable from their ticket machines?

I would be very interested to know their answer.

On the other hand it sounds like you were given the answer by the station staff on this specific occasion.

 

[yorkie]

Yes I too would be very interested in what Southeastern have to say.

If they give an unsatisfactory answer, I'd be happy to assist...

 

[philthetube]

I have emailed them, looking forward to response.

 

[bb21]

Why is it not possible for you to buy a ticket at Waterloo?

 

[yorkie]

Is there an obligation to extend your journey and walk between stations in order to buy a ticket?

If King's Cross ticket office was closed, there would be no requirement to walk to St Pancras (and vice-versa)

Waterloo have previously distanced themselves from East, telling me that it was not possible to purchase a platform ticket for East and that it was a completely separate station and they had nothing to do with them.

As happens far too often, train companies are caught inconveniencing customers and to have their cake and eat it. What a surprise (!)

 

[furlong]

Surely, the staff at the gateline could simply be provided with portable machines to sell the full range of tickets for immediate travel! Might need taking up with the DfT - they shouldn't be refusing travel at a gated station because they haven't provided the facilities to sell the right ticket - even an old PERTIS machine (or a similar facility added to an existing machine) would do the trick of collecting the right amount of money!

 

[yorkie]

Also they are asking passengers to make an additional LU journey when this occurs, which makes it all the more crazy.

If they refuse to let the passenger access into the gateline, then the passenger has nowhere to go other than back to LU. What would happen if a customer's LU ticket had expired and they also refused to let them through? I'd be calling the police if both gatelines attempted to detain me in a 'no mans land' with no exit.

In this case, the OP did have the ability to go back down the escalator, get another tube to a different station, visit that station's ticket office, and back to the station they were refused entry to, but there cannot be a requirement to do that!

However this behaviour is consistent with, and typical of, the sort of behaviour I have witnessed at this gateline in the past. So it does not surprise me one bit.

 

[philthetube]

Why is it not possible for you to buy a ticket at Waterloo?

It is but it is quite a long walk and along busy passages in the peak, when I happen to want to travel.

 

[causton]

Waterloo have previously distanced themselves from East, telling me that it was not possible to purchase a platform ticket for East and that it was a completely separate station and they had nothing to do with them.

On the other hand:

• Platform tickets not being available is probably more of a technical thing. On my TIS there is just a single button that says Platform Ticket - why would you need to choose between different stations? - and at my station due to some technical reason that has not been pinned down yet, the Platform Ticket button doesn't even work and hasn't for a while.
• It is a completely separate station.
• South Western Railway have nothing to do with Waterloo East, as far as I am aware.

I am surprised there is not a ticket office at Waterloo East - if some stations like Euston can have two why can't Waterloo East have one?!? - so I am unsure whether to fall on the side of counting it as a station without facilities to purchase tickets not available from the machines, or whether to count the arguably very close Waterloo ticket office as adequate.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it at all likely PRIV discounts will ever become available from public facing TVMs?

I think facilities at Waterloo East probably depends on where you consider the main entrance is. The one via the balcony at Waterloo Main is not that far from a proper ticket office. But if you leave the underground via Southwark then you're in trouble.

In the OP's position I'd be thinking of arriving via the Met and Bakerloo, and then I'd be passing the ticket office on the obvious and direct route to Waterloo East.

 

[30907]

Leaving aside any issues with barrier staff, if we are discussing a ticket only available at a staffed booking office, then it is surely down to the OP to check in advance where that ticket can be obtained, even if it adds a couple of minutes to their journey. In this case, it isn't entirely surprising that there is no BO at the "new" entrance.

BTW in my brief period of railway service I was told clearly that Priv travel was what it said - a privilege - and if I was unable to get a Priv the public fare was due. However, I realise there are other tickets that are ticket office only.

PS @swt_passenger London Bridge is another option (even more so once the work is completed).

 

[James H]

I am surprised there is not a ticket office at Waterloo East - if some stations like Euston can have two why can't Waterloo East have one?!? - so I am unsure whether to fall on the side of counting it as a station without facilities to purchase tickets not available from the machines, or whether to count the arguably very close Waterloo ticket office as adequate.

Pre-privatisation Waterloo East had its own (small) ticket office at the top of the stairs from Sandell Street

 

[Starmill]

if we are discussing a ticket only available at a staffed booking office, then it is surely down to the OP to check in advance where that ticket can be obtained

OK, so if the OP wanted to make the journey and checked in advance, they'd discover that the ticket cannot be purchased.

Does that mean they're not permitted to travel? Does it mean that the fare due increases to being the public fare?

I've never heard these views before.

 

[BML247]

Waterloo ticket office will have no problem issuing a ticket for travel from any other station as per the RSP.

The op could always ask at harrow if the staff have access to a priv on the ticket machines as they may have that ability with also being able to issue national rail tickets.

What is the advice from rdg with regards to not being able to buy a priv at a station? There you will probably find the answer

 

[Wallsendmag]

Pre-privatisation Waterloo East had its own (small) ticket office at the top of the stairs from Sandell Street

I worked there for a week back in 89

 

[alistairlees]

This is what the Rail Staff Travel Guide says on the topic (at https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/files/Publications/services/rst/RST_Where_Can_I_Go.pdf on page 6)

Privilege Travel in general: How to buy a Priv ticket, and what to do if this is not possible
Just as for the general public, you must have a valid ticket before you start a journey. If you wish to travel using a privilege rate (Q-rate) ticket, you must buy that ticket from a ticket office. At present it is not possible to buy them online, by phone, or from ticket machines. If the ticket office is closed and it is therefore not possible to purchase the privilege rate ticket for which you are eligible, you must have your fare ready and offer to pay it at the first available opportunity. This could be on entry to the platform, on the train, or when exiting at your destination. By doing so, ie offering to pay, there can be no question that you are trying to travel without paying. If you don’t offer to pay, then you could be accused of fare avoidance.

It almost answers your question!

 

[yorkie]

Indeed. There is no requirement to to take a London Underground train to a different station, buy a ticket from a different stations' ticket office, and walk back to the station you were denied entry to.

 

[30907]

OK, so if the OP wanted to make the journey and checked in advance, they'd discover that the ticket cannot be purchased.

Does that mean they're not permitted to travel? Does it mean that the fare due increases to being the public fare?

I'm obviously wrong on that and glad to hear it.
That said, with respect, the ticket CAN be purchased at one of three booking offices that the OP can easily access without having to double back.

 

[yorkie]

I'm obviously wrong on that and glad to hear it.
That said, with respect, the ticket CAN be purchased at one of three booking offices that the OP can easily access without having to double back.

There is no booking office at Harrow on the Hill, and no facility for them to issue PRIV. The passenger interchanges at Finchley Road and Southwark/Waterloo East on to Southeastern.

Southeastern has chosen to offer no facility to issue these fares at the Southwark entrance to Waterloo East.

Therefore the passenger must be allowed entry into Waterloo East. It is not correct for Southeastern to turn them away and force them to take a London Underground train to a different station.

In this case, as the destination is within the Oyster area, does the OP have a PRIV enabled Oyster card to use? This of course is no help for journeys exteding beyond the Oyster are.

 

[30907]

Southeastern has chosen to offer no facility to issue these fares at the Southwark entrance to Waterloo East.

Therefore the passenger must be allowed entry into Waterloo East. It is not correct for Southeastern to turn them away and force them to take a London Underground train to a different station.

If there were a genuine issue of inconvenience I would agree (eg Blackfriars when the BO is closed in the evening - and of course if disability were involved it wpuld be another matter). But they do not have to use this particular interchange/station entrance, they can alight a stop earlier or later to access the same services.
Another example is Leeds where AFAIK the new southern entrance only has machines. I'd be surprised if there werent other barriered stations in this situation.

 

[Starmill]

Leeds is not an appropriate parallel example - it has a ticket office.

Wakefield Kirkgate is an appropriate example. There is a ticket office nearby at another station with a similar name. The station has no ticket office. So is someone travelling from there required to walk (or use public transport) to the ticket office at the other station?

 

[30907]

Leeds is not an appropriate parallel example - it has a ticket office.

Wakefield Kirkgate is an appropriate example. There is a ticket office nearby at another station with a similar name. The station has no ticket office. So is someone travelling from there required to walk (or use public transport) to the ticket office at the other station?

1. The ticket office at Leeds is at the other end of the station, though admittedly not as far away as Waterloo from Southwark.
2. Has Kirkgate barriers now? I haven't been there for a bit... In any case, walking nearly a mile across Wakefield (which I have done, though not to buy a ticket!) is rather different from getting off a stop earlier or later on the tube and walking a coulle of hundred metres extra to go past a booking office.
I don't think we're going to agree on this....

 

[Starmill]

So you are saying walking a mile to access a ticket office in a different station is not reasonable, but walking perhaps 300-400 metres is? What about walking to the ticket office at Warrington Bank Quay from Warrington Central? Or what about walking to the ticket office at Wigan North Western from Wigan Wallgate? Or walking to the ticket office at Newark North Gate from Newark Castle?

 

[yorkie]

If there were a genuine issue of inconvenience I would agree (eg Blackfriars when the BO is closed in the evening - and of course if disability were involved it wpuld be another matter). But they do not have to use this particular interchange/station entrance, they can alight a stop earlier or later to access the same services.
Another example is Leeds where AFAIK the new southern entrance only has machines. I'd be surprised if there werent other barriered stations in this situation.

How is Leeds anything like this?

For it to be comparable, there'd have to be:

• No ticket office at Leeds station
• A ticket office at a station near Leeds station, but an underground train ride away
• No way to exit the southern entrance except onto an underground train

So it's not a valid comparison.

1. The ticket office at Leeds is at the other end of the station, though admittedly not as far away as Waterloo from Southwark.

OK so not a comparison. Firstly, no-one would attempt to deny you entry into Leeds station at the southern entrance. Secondly, the ticket office is within Leeds station. Thirdly, if you present yourself at the southern entrance to Leeds station, you could be turned back (not that anyone would!) without forcing you onto an underground train.

2. Has Kirkgate barriers now? I haven't been there for a bit... In any case, walking nearly a mile across Wakefield (which I have done, though not to buy a ticket!) is rather different from getting off a stop earlier or later on the tube and walking a coulle of hundred metres extra to go past a booking office.
I don't think we're going to agree on this....

No, but it's a much more valid comparison, if you want us to use a comparison!

 

[alistairlees]

I make a journey occasionally from Harrow on the Hill to Blackheath, the obvious route is via Met and jubilee lines to Southwark then Waterloo east to Blackheath.

I have a L.T. staff pass and a priv so do not have an opportunity to buy a ticket on route or at Waterloo East, Machines only. I have been refused acess through the gateline because I do not have a ticket and told that I have to walk to Waterloo to get one.

Surely this cannot be correct?

Whatever the merits of the discussion so far, I would have thought that, in this case and given the many journey possibilities in London where there is such a dense network, it would be just as easy and quick, and far less stressful, to get the Met to Baker Street, change there on to the Bakerloo and take that to Charing Cross, from where you can buy a priv rate ticket and still (in all likelihood) be on exactly the same train as you would have been had you gone via Jubilee to Southwark / Waterloo East.

 

[philthetube]

In this case, as the destination is within the Oyster area, does the OP have a PRIV enabled Oyster card to use? This of course is no help for journeys exteding beyond the Oyster are.

No PRIV enabled oyster as LU staff.

The op could always ask at harrow if the staff have access to a priv on the ticket machines as they may have that ability with also being able to issue national rail tickets.

Harrow on the hill are unable to issue national rail tickets travelling from remote stations so that is not an option, this causes issues for lots of travellers, not just priv holders but all travelcard holders wishing to travel beyond their zone boundaries.

Whatever the merits of the discussion so far, I would have thought that, in this case and given the many journey possibilities in London where there is such a dense network, it would be just as easy and quick, and far less stressful, to get the Met to Baker Street, change there on to the Bakerloo and take that to Charing Cross, from where you can buy a priv rate ticket and still (in all likelihood) be on exactly the same train as you would have been had you gone via Jubilee to Southwark / Waterloo East.

Timewise Harrow on the Hill, Finchley Rd. (cross platform connection, more frequent service) Southwark, Waterloo East is slightly quicker but much nicer than fighting the crowds at Baker St. and Charing cross in the evening peak.

I suspect that there are other tickets which could potentially have the same issues, family and friends comes to mind as tickets using this railcard are not available from all machines.

 

[Mojo]

No PRIV enabled oyster as LU staff.

What makes you think that you are not entitled to a Priv discounted Oyster card? I suggest that you download the form off the Intranet and get your manager to sign it, if you are retired then the form is available from the Pension fund office.