Travelling Short on Megatrain

[WillPS]

My brother and I are getting a train to our grandmother's in Norfolk on Christmas Eve, and there are some very tasty £11 trains we can get through Megatrain. My question is, if we get off at Thetford, what can actually be done to stop us? It's an unmanned station (at the time of day we'd be there, anyway), and it's timetabled to be a 0 minute stop...

I only ask, because it seems ridiculous that we'd have to go to through Thetford, then change at Norwich for a train FOR Thetford, thereby adding 2 hours to our journey.

 

[gordonthemoron]

if it's unmanned, I can't see how you could be stopped

 

[LondonLarry]

However, if you are stopped, you would be liable for the undiscounted single fare for the journey made.

 

[First class]

If any of EMTs or NXEAs Revenue Protection department decided to have a 'sting' there, you would be charged rather a lot more...

 

[will1337]

It's explicitly stated in the megatrain rules that you can't travel short, as is it for AP tickets although on long distance journeys there is a lot more flexibility in the stations that you can travel to/from with AP.

 

[Helvellyn]

As others have said, megatrain specifically is for travel from Station A to Station b. No break of journey, no stopping short, no travelling on anything other than the booked train (unless the booked train is cancelled, then you'll be told to travel on the next train).

 

[Pumbaa]

If it's unmanned, nothing stopping you hopping off the train. The guard won't pull you up on the platform for having the incorrect ticket, if they can remember your specific ticket that is! I can't speak for Thetford, but certainly at my local station (situation sounds the same) I've never had a problem finishing short.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Although officially, it's against the rules and you shouldn't do it

 

[Surreytraveller]

Also, if the train ends up not stopping there, or being diverted for any reason, you won't be entitled to a taxi back.

 

[yorkie]

A team of RPIs may be hiding at Thetford. They would then ambush you, interrogate you, and ask you to pay the full Anytime fare from wherever you came from. Unlikely? Yes! But theoretically possible. It's your risk.

 

[WillPS]

I am totally aware of the rules surrounding Megatrain tickets.

If there are Revenue Protection bodies out at Thetford (a station with a single member of staff who works mornings only) on Christmas Eve at 3pm, not only will I pay the full fare, but I'll also do a jig and eat my hat.

My question was really, what is there to stop me? The conductor wont go out of their way to detain us as 1) it's not their job 2) it would hold up the train which is timetabled to spend less than a minute on the station platform.

The worst thing I can imagine happening is the conductor threatens to involve the BTP. If that happens, I'll probably keep my bum on the seat and get an on-the-day single back to Thetford, which will probably be on the same bloody unit.

Don't get me wrong I do not like fare evasion, and this isn't about the cost of a single Norwich - Thetford ticket. I'm almost tempted to buy one to prove that point. I don't mind just finishing my journey at Norwich, but it would certainly make things a little easier for everyone on the afternoon before Christmas.

 

[Lampshade]

Having checked the station plan there are five different exits at Thetford, four of which have no lockable gates and one of which is through the booking office, so just leave via the footbridge or the car park exit. I doubt NXEA/EMT are paranoid about revenue protection so much that they'd barrier all five exits at a station this small, taking up valuable manpower on Christmas Eve.

You're not allowed to do it though :P

Just wondered, isn't putting the station plans up on NRE a fare dodger's dream?

 

[scrapy]

The fact that you've put on a public forum that you intend to do it (with the time and day) may mean a very keen RPI may be at Thetford!!! Doubt it though!

It is your responsibility to have a valid ticket for your journey, a Megatrain ticket to Norwich isn't valid. If you are stopped at Thetford without a valid ticket an RPI probably could prosecute if they could prove you were WillPS, as you've stated publically your intentions here.

 

[LondonLarry]

Don't get me wrong I do not like fare evasion, and this isn't about the cost of a single Norwich - Thetford ticket. I'm almost tempted to buy one to prove that point. I don't mind just finishing my journey at Norwich, but it would certainly make things a little easier for everyone on the afternoon before Christmas.

You don't like fare evasion but you plan on doing it - there's a contradiction!

 

[tony_mac]

in order for it to be enforceable, they would have to make any significant restrictions sufficiently clear to the consumer. I am not entirely sure they have done that.
It is in the terms and conditions, but half-way down a 7-page document.

Bookings are only valid on the journey(s) and places stated.

It would seem to be common-sense that there is no harm to the company if you get off early, so it could be argued that it isn't obvious and needs to be more prominently displayed and specifically pointed out.

They also refer you to 'penalty fares' by linking to the 'luggage and animals' section of the national rail website!
I am pretty sure that some of their other terms and conditions are illegal also.

 

[Failed Unit]

Just buy in advance a ticket from Norwich - Thetford so at least you are legal. If you are challenger just had them the Norwich - Thetford ticket. You have then got valid tickets for your entire journey, the fact you have decided not to Travel to Norwich and back is none of their business. If you want to be more sneaky then just do the same from the station before, however in this case that is Ely so you won't be much better off. (although CT were still running the service the train would have been turned back there anyway - sorry can't help getting a dig in a national express)

 

[LondonLarry]

in order for it to be enforceable, they would have to make any significant restrictions sufficiently clear to the consumer. I am not entirely sure they have done that.
It is in the terms and conditions, but half-way down a 7-page document.


It would seem to be common-sense that there is no harm to the company if you get off early, so it could be argued that it isn't obvious and needs to be more prominently displayed and specifically pointed out.

They also refer you to 'penalty fares' by linking to the 'luggage and animals' section of the national rail website!
I am pretty sure that some of their other terms and conditions are illegal also.

There is an FAQ which mentions it, but it's not specified in the T&Cs:

My reservation states the main terminus; can I board elsewhere?
Please note that the departure and arrival times displayed are for the main terminus points you selected. You must board and alight at these points, and it is a condition of travel on megatrain that you may not board or alight at other points on the route. If travelling on services operated by East Midlands Trains, you will be charged the full single fare for the actual journey made. On services operated by South West trains Penalty fares will apply if passengers alight or board at any other points along the route, other than the stations listed on the tickets.

Why can't I get on or off the train at intermediate stations?
megatrain is a simple low-cost inter-city fare like the successful megabus which has been run by Stagecoach for over two years. It is not expected to be highly profitable and must attract a good number of new customers to justify itself. In order to do that, it needs to be kept simple for passengers booking and simple for our staff to implement and monitor. Therefore, megatrain is only being offered on lightly loaded trains and between certain origins and destinations only. Should the extension of the initial megatrain routes prove popular with our passengers, we may extend to offer to more places.

 

[Failed Unit]

If any of EMTs or NXEAs Revenue Protection department decided to have a 'sting' there, you would be charged rather a lot more...

Just going off topic a little, but would EMT ever be allowed to a revenue protection duties at this station as it is managed by Nationalised Express East Anglia? EMT revenue protection for that line is carried out by the gaurds so I don't think it will care as it is not its revenue that is been extracted in this case.

I guess this no stopping short is to prevent someone from buying a Norwich - Nottingham megatrain journey and using it to travel between Norwich and Ely, extracting revenue from NXEA, again I can't see EMT been that bothered if someone did, but NXEA certainly would be!

 

[WillPS]

You don't like fare evasion but you plan on doing it - there's a contradiction!

I planned to make my journey to Norwich. I just did a little checking and found the train stopped at Thetford on the way, which would make things a lot easier for my parents and grandmother; allowing them to relax a little sooner on what is supposed to be a time of year for relaxing with family, not arguing the rights and wrongs of travelling short! Like I said, I don't mind paying for 2 Norwich - Thetford singles. I just didn't really see the point, I don't feel as if I'm against the spirit of the megatrain scheme...

The fact that you've put on a public forum that you intend to do it (with the time and day) may mean a very keen RPI may be at Thetford!!! Doubt it though!

It is your responsibility to have a valid ticket for your journey, a Megatrain ticket to Norwich isn't valid. If you are stopped at Thetford without a valid ticket an RPI probably could prosecute if they could prove you were WillPS, as you've stated publically your intentions here.

As I've said before, if Revenue Protection choose to sting Thetford (which to my knowledge has never been checked before) at that time (when it runs unmanned) on Christmas Eve, I'll do a jig and eat my hat.

I guess this no stopping short is to prevent someone from buying a Norwich - Nottingham megatrain journey and using it to travel between Norwich and Ely, extracting revenue from NXEA, again I can't see EMT been that bothered if someone did, but NXEA certainly would be!

That was my interpretation of this rule aswell, I don't see that stopping 1 station short on a long journey is really where their 'beef' is...

 

[90019]

As I've said before, if Revenue Protection choose to sting Thetford (which to my knowledge has never been checked before) at that time (when it runs unmanned) on Christmas Eve, I'll do a jig and eat my hat.

I have to quote this so you can't edit it if they are there

Somebody call revenue protection!

 

[PhilipW]

If I buy an AP from London to Southampton Central, I can't get off at Southampton Parkway -- that's bonkers

If I buy an AP from Southampton to Waterloo, I can't get off at Clapham Junction -- that's bonkers.

If I buy an AP from London to Manchester, I can't get off at Stockport -- that's bonkers.

If I buy an AP from London to Glasgow, I can't get off at Motherwell -- that's bonkers.

If I buy an AP from Waterloo to Exeter St Davids, I can't get off at Exeter Central -- that's bonkers.


etc, etc, etc

 

[Mojo]

I think the purpose of the rule is to ensure that everyone has a valid ticket. AIUI the Megatrain system operates with the ID numbers being given to everyone who needs then (eg. the train guard and the barrier staff at each end). If they allowed breaks of journey then as well as this, they would have to issue the details to barrier staff at intermediate stations, as well as other staff who may be carrying out revenue blocks or whatever else en-route. So a Waterloo - Portsmouth Megatrain journey would require staff at Woking, Guildford, etc. to all be aware, which would clearly up costs and would not be practical.

 

[tony_mac]

I sometimes buy AP tickets from Broad Green to London, but if I am running late, I save time by getting the bus into Lime Street. I guess that I should be strung up, flogged and made to pay a penalty fare while reciting the conditions of carriage....

Most retailers don't actually specify that you can't start / stop short on an advance ticket anyway, so I doubt it would actually be legally enforceable, depending on where you bought it.

(they often say 'valid on the booked trains only', some say 'you are not allowed to break and resume your journey', although some do say 'not valid to start or end at intermediate stations')

 

[PhilipW]

I live betweem two railway stations. When travelling to London the decision as which one to leave from and which one to arrive back at oftern depends on family/friend arrangements as to who can drop me off or pick me up. As such it can even change during the day.

As long as I have a valid ticket to to/from the furthest destination I cannot see that I am doing anything wrong. In this thread (and in other threads) some seem to make out that I am a law breaker if I arrive/leave from the nearer station whether it be an AP ticket or a walk on saver I have. For some reason it appears to be lawful if it is a full fare ticket. The logic does escape me a bit

 

[jon0844]

You don't like fare evasion but you plan on doing it - there's a contradiction!

I have to say that I don't see any loss to the railway by having someone leaving a train early and freeing up a seat for someone else.

I know it's against the rules, but I could probably think of a 101 more important things to worry about!

When me and the wife went to York, from Hatfield (via Stevenage). Our FCC train wasn't reservable (obviously) so we took an earlier trainy to ensure we wouldn't miss a pretty tight connection (6-7 minutes - which is fine except the EC train on the fast line would probably be on time, the FCC could easily be late if stuck behind an earlier all-station stopper to WGC) so there was an hour or so between trains.

On our advanced ticket, there's no break of journey allowed but a quick word with the gateline staff allowed us to leave and come back after going for something to eat.

That was in breach of the rules too, but I don't think anyone was harmed!

 

[Helvellyn]

If I buy an AP from London to Southampton Central, I can't get off at Southampton Parkway -- that's bonkers

If I buy an AP from Southampton to Waterloo, I can't get off at Clapham Junction -- that's bonkers.

If I buy an AP from London to Manchester, I can't get off at Stockport -- that's bonkers.

If I buy an AP from London to Glasgow, I can't get off at Motherwell -- that's bonkers.

If I buy an AP from Waterloo to Exeter St Davids, I can't get off at Exeter Central -- that's bonkers.


etc, etc, etc

Because the product you are buying is a restrictive one. The flip side of the cheaper price is much stricter T&Cs.

In order for it to be enforceable, they would have to make any significant restrictions sufficiently clear to the consumer. I am not entirely sure they have done that. It is in the terms and conditions, but half-way down a 7-page document.

It would seem to be common-sense that there is no harm to the company if you get off early, so it could be argued that it isn't obvious and needs to be more prominently displayed and specifically pointed out.

The purchaser of the megatrain ticket has to agree to the T&Cs at the time of purchase. If they decide not to read those, whether they are one page or twenty, that is their choice but if they've clicked they agree to them (and that's the only way to complete the purchase) then not abiding by them is not an excuse for break of journey, stopping/starting short, travelling on a completely train, etc.

megatrain is a sister product to megabus. On both you pay to travel from A to B, on the train/bus stated. If the megabus stops at some services on route, you can't just jump off there because it suits. Likewise, megatrain might stop at other places but if you're £1 ticket is to B, that doesn't mean you can get off at C. megatrain is also classed as an 'experimental' ticket type, hence why it was not re-named as an 'Advance' ticket as part of Fares Simplification.

 

[yorkie]

If you look at the reasons for not offering it to little stations, it is to keep it "simple".

So, in the unlikely event of RPIs luring at Thetford, and them taking you to court, Megatrain would have to argue that keeping it "simple" by not offering you the fare to a little station means that they have lost income. I am pretty sure no court would agree with that argument (IANAL!). To have any chance of succeeding, they'd have to argue that you have underpaid for the journey. But if you are in posession of a ticket that is via Thetford to Norwich, and a Norwich back to Thetford, then they couldn't even argue that.

Of course this is academic as you won't be stopped.

Is it fare dodging? No; if anything it's the opposite. It's mileage dodging.

 

[tony_mac]

The purchaser of the megatrain ticket has to agree to the T&Cs at the time of purchase. If they decide not to read those, whether they are one page or twenty, that is their choice but if they've clicked they agree to them (and that's the only way to complete the purchase) then not abiding by them is not an excuse for break of journey, stopping/starting short, travelling on a completely train, etc.

If there is an important term hidden amongst 20 pages of conditions, then the courts are likely to say that is a valid reason for not abiding by it.

While not specific to train travel, if a term is of significant detriment to the consumer, and particularly if it's not obvious, then it cannot be buried in the terms and conditions. It must be pointed out specifically - and mentioned in things like brochures and sales literature. If you want an example, look at the Foxtons case.

 

[Helvellyn]

If there is an important term hidden amongst 20 pages of conditions, then the courts are likely to say that is a valid reason for not abiding by it.

While not specific to train travel, if a term is of significant detriment to the consumer, and particularly if it's not obvious, then it cannot be buried in the terms and conditions. It must be pointed out specifically - and mentioned in things like brochures and sales literature. If you want an example, look at the Foxtons case.

I found this is less than two minutes. It's not buried away in the small print and makes it perfectly clear what you can and cannot do. In particular: -

My reservation states the main terminus; can I board elsewhere?
Please note that the departure and arrival times displayed are for the main terminus points you selected. You must board and alight at these points, and it is a condition of travel on megatrain that you may not board or alight at other points on the route. If travelling on services operated by East Midlands Trains, you will be charged the full single fare for the actual journey made. On services operated by South West trains Penalty fares will apply if passengers alight or board at any other points along the route, other than the stations listed on the tickets.

Why can't I get on or off the train at intermediate stations?
megatrain is a simple low-cost inter-city fare like the successful megabus which has been run by Stagecoach for over two years. It is not expected to be highly profitable and must attract a good number of new customers to justify itself. In order to do that, it needs to be kept simple for passengers booking and simple for our staff to implement and monitor. Therefore, megatrain is only being offered on lightly loaded trains and between certain origins and destinations only. Should the extension of the initial megatrain routes prove popular with our passengers, we may extend to offer to more places.

 

[tony_mac]

Yes, that page is clear, but you had to go looking for it, and you knew it was there somewhere.

It's quite easy for someone to go through the booking process without ever stumbling across that page.

My point that important terms cannot be buried amongst pages of terms and conditions still stands.

 

[Helvellyn]

I'd hardly called it buried. I guess we'll have to agree to differ.