Travelling with small children: What improvements could be made?

[LowLevel]

I’m curious how much of this would be ticked off by completing other goals, like a decent sized area for bikes and large luggage that still prioritises wheelchairs, like a decent sized loo that a wheelchair can fit in that also has a fold down changing table. Wider seats, more bins, a clear area for noisier passengers have all been asked for before. Help with boarding is the main one from the experience I’ve heard of directly, either in advance of a train leaving a terminus or a staff setting up the wheelchair ramp and letting the driver know they’ve sat down before leaving.

Care has to be taken with things like this and there is an element of be careful what you wish for.

Modern robobogs on trains do cater for wheelchairs and changing tables.

On the last point, I once worked a train as guard and arrived at a typical single manned booking clerk town station. It turned out there had been a visually impaired person's convention there and over 20 people plus over 10 guide dogs had turned up ad hoc for the train and requested assistance to board, change trains and so on.

Not a problem, the chap in the office closed his window, did his best to get them grouped by destination on the platform, and he, I and a controller who happened to be travelling on the train and used to be a guard himself duly got them all safely boarded and sat down.

The problem? It took so long to achieve there was a 10 minute delay to the train and they and everyone else on board missed a number of 10 minute connections (double the 5 minute minimum, of course).

Helping people is important but equally taking 5 minutes and delaying the train to get them settled if necessary will have consequences. Quick and efficient but still friendly on the part of the station staff with a decent hand off to the on train staff if provided (and there in lies the problem, if there happens not to be on train staff) to resolve any further issues is the aim of the game.

The new app under development allowing hand offs with notifications and same day bookings should if used correctly help greatly in this regard.

 

[A0wen]

I’m curious how much of this would be ticked off by completing other goals, like a decent sized area for bikes and large luggage that still prioritises wheelchairs, like a decent sized loo that a wheelchair can fit in that also has a fold down changing table. Wider seats, more bins, a clear area for noisier passengers have all been asked for before. Help with boarding is the main one from the experience I’ve heard of directly, either in advance of a train leaving a terminus or a staff setting up the wheelchair ramp and letting the driver know they’ve sat down before leaving.

The problem with all this stuff though is it takes up space and therefore reduces capacity. Which is fine, but is often for people who don't use the railways that often (because they aren't travelling that often). So regular travellers (i.e. commuters) lose out because there are fewer seats etc just to try to attract a few more off-peak travellers. Doesn't seem like good business sense that.

On the toilets - all new stock does have disabled access toilets, which is why they take up about double the space a toilet used to on BR era stock.

 

[tomwills98]

I remember years ago, FGW had a kid's activity pack where you could make a cardboard model of a class 180. Though with today's tech, complimentary earphones may be better or a dedicated kids/loud coach

 

[Mikey C]

A family carriage from the city to the seaside (or some other leisure destination) at the weekends and in summer would be well used, but how much demand would there be during term time?

And while you can imagine such a carriage on a 11 car Pendolino, what about shorter trains like a 3 car Turbostar? Or ones used by commuters during the week (say Brighton to London or the Javelin services) whose needs will be different?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with all this stuff though is it takes up space and therefore reduces capacity. Which is fine, but is often for people who don't use the railways that often (because they aren't travelling that often). So regular travellers (i.e. commuters) lose out because there are fewer seats etc just to try to attract a few more off-peak travellers. Doesn't seem like good business sense that.

The two requirements are mostly dealt with by different trains. Most users of Avanti West Coast, for example, are not commuters. And they are only a majority on GWR because of Reading.

And while you can imagine such a carriage on a 11 car Pendolino, what about shorter trains like a 3 car Turbostar?

The answer regarding short DMUs is that no long-distance mainline services should be being operated using short DMUs. They are for branch lines.

Or ones used by commuters during the week (say Brighton to London or the Javelin services) whose needs will be different?

I would only really think the concept workable on long-distance services which don't tend to be in that position.

 

[Mikey C]

The two requirements are mostly dealt with by different trains. Most users of Avanti West Coast, for example, are not commuters. And they are only a majority on GWR because of Reading.

They're not commuters, but still a lot will be travelling for work purposes

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're not commuters, but still a lot will be travelling for work purposes

People travelling on business over a long distance won't accept tightly-packed 3+2 seating. That's a commuter thing.

They like the same things as families - tables for their laptop and coffee, for example, good luggage space and decent legroom. I'm sure they'd happily put up with there being a few cartoon characters vinylled onto the wall.

 

[BahrainLad]

My daughter is just over 4 and she has been travelling by train (long distance, as well as around London), tube, and plane since she was only a few weeks old (first Intercity at 2 weeks, first flight at 8 weeks).

Most of the time has been very easy if you have a little bit of 'insider' knowledge and plan ahead, so much so that I have written notes and shared with other expectant fathers!

If it were up to me, I'd incorporate the following into a service standard

- allowing families to 'pre-board' like the airlines do. We use Grand Central a lot and use RTT to find which platform the train would be leaving from at KGX, so we could stand outside the door to the carriage with the wheelchair space which we would use if not booked
- even better would be the ability to 'waitlist' for the wheelchair space, so if it wasn't needed by a disabled passenger then you could use it instead. Even better again would be an additional 'buggy space' that would be bookable. Ideally next to the baby change loo (which are generally OK, could be a bit cleaner I suppose). On Eurostar, which we have taken to Amsterdam and Brussels, there is a certain part of Standard Premier where the seats reverse layout in the middle of the carriage, which is useful for parking a buggy next to a seat (the old BR Mark 4s in First had something similar.)

Things like activity packs are nice to have but not essential. Parents should be well prepared. It would be useful though if the onboard cafe could stock emergency things like baby milk, baby food etc. BA for example have Ella's Kitchen food pouches stashed in the galley for 'emergencies', at least on long haul.

In general the two things I think you need when travelling with a child are a) space and b) time. If train companies could guarantee more of both, they could even make money from it.

 

[Pugwash]

Level boarding helps so many people, the Railway should be working towards it over the long term at all stations.

A quick win for kids would be all table seating with snakes and ladders or draughts / chess boards on the table top. Having a table is so much better for a card game.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Level boarding helps so many people, the Railway should be working towards it over the long term at all stations.

A quick win for kids would be all table seating with snakes and ladders or draughts / chess boards on the table top. Having a table is so much better for a card game.

BR had a Mk2 set like that which was used on XC before it was refurbed away. Used to have lovely wooden panelling too.

- allowing families to 'pre-board' like the airlines do. We use Grand Central a lot and use RTT to find which platform the train would be leaving from at KGX, so we could stand outside the door to the carriage with the wheelchair space which we would use if not booked

I think that would be OK at termini (not really workable elsewhere) but I would only say it is fair if you have reserved seats.

 

[Tim_UK]

1) Assisted boarding for those travelling with very young children.
2) Being able to book the exact seat (i.e. table/near toilet etc).
3) Dedicated pram space (that can be booked in advance)
4) Dedicated seats for mums breastfeeding
5) Level boarding

So my little one is 4 now. And we live in West yorkshire. From a few weeks after being born until Covid, we did quite a few trips by train. Glasgow, London, lots of evening meals out in Manchester. Lots of Tube/overground journeys with a buggy. Sleeper train from Munich to Zagreb. We've done it all. Trips both as a couple + 1 and as single adult + 1.

And I would say that nothing is required which wouldn't help normal people

• Doors wide enough to carry on a folded buggy while holding a child with a big back pack on.
• More luggage spaces right by the door.
• Clean toilets on trains - most already have a baby change shelf, but you never want to put anything on the floor. Bu
• Clean indoor waiting areas - because these are a much nicer place to do a nappy change or take 5 minutes to sort stuff out than anywhere else.
• Clean toilets on stations, and again, wide doorways.
• A few more staff around on stations - so at least the feeling you won't be leaving your bag on the platform when you l
• a public `kids are welcome, breast feed anywhere, ask for help` policy
• more station parking - because we tended to drive to the station, leave the car with the carseat in the car. Because getting taxi means carrying a heavy car seat around for 3 days or not using car seat (legal, but feels wrong).
• More M&S or mini waitrose in the stations, so can load more snacks.
• Indication if likely to be a lot of too pissed to standup, shouty, sweary football fans on that train. Medium pissed is ok. Annililated is not.

We used to book a lot of first class tickets, just for more space, especially on TPE (to Glasgow) and grand central.

We never had a bad experience. On one really cramped grand central service, one woman gave use a scowl for just breastfeeding at the table. Child was quiet and happy. 5 other random strangers got a cuddle and got well into playing with his toys with him.

The main tip in a city is to book a hotel really near the station with a bar and left luggage. So on arriving not far to carry bags. And on leaving, can spend all day out and about, get back and chill in the bar for an hour, retrieve bags, sort stuff out, walk to the station and evening train out.

My best travel experience (not rail) was a French easyjet steward who said loud enough for everybody nearby to hear `If you need to, breastfeeding is allowed on easyjet anywhere on the plane` with a look that said `any complaints and I'll bollock them for you`

I think parents stress about their kids causing trouble or upsetting people. But people are way less fussed. A cafe manager once told me that he didn't see any business downside from the occasional crying baby, yet most parents really worry.

I've also been amazing by the number of times people have really helped. A New York taxi driver who rang his booked job and said he would be late, so could drop us off (only a 10 min drive). Waved into the ladies toilet to use the changing table (I'm a bloke). Waitress holding the baby while we ate. Given a restaurant table and the `the people who booked it are late, I'll just tell them they missed it if they turn up`. Northern conductors giving the little one a ticket and stamping it for him.

I'm not in favour of special areas. Family coaches, breast feeding areas. It just implies that you shouldn't do those things if you don't fit in.

 

[Tim_UK]

The problem with all this stuff though is it takes up space and therefore reduces capacity. Which is fine, but is often for people who don't use the railways that often (because they aren't travelling that often). So regular travellers (i.e. commuters) lose out because there are fewer seats etc just to try to attract a few more off-peak travellers. Doesn't seem like good business sense that.

On a 185, there is a decent bike area with fold down seats.

No bikes, drive the buggy straight on the train. Remove child, sit child on seat, fold buggy, put buggy under seat, fold the seat down and sit on it. Retrieve child onto knee, 3 people people stood up get a seat. Same in reverse near the destination. I've done this so many times.

Indeed the ball room beyond first class increases capacity. It is also good for a buggy, but you can get loads and loads of people in there sat on the floor, stood up etc. I mean crush loading isn't idea, but it gets people to their destination. Same thing, shove child on, carry on buggy and a big bag, arrange nicely under seats.

 

[A0wen]

So my little one is 4 now. And we live in West yorkshire. From a few weeks after being born until Covid, we did quite a few trips by train. Glasgow, London, lots of evening meals out in Manchester. Lots of Tube/overground journeys with a buggy. Sleeper train from Munich to Zagreb. We've done it all. Trips both as a couple + 1 and as single adult + 1.

And I would say that nothing is required which wouldn't help normal people

• Doors wide enough to carry on a folded buggy while holding a child with a big back pack on.
• More luggage spaces right by the door.
• Clean toilets on trains - most already have a baby change shelf, but you never want to put anything on the floor. Bu
• Clean indoor waiting areas - because these are a much nicer place to do a nappy change or take 5 minutes to sort stuff out than anywhere else.
• Clean toilets on stations, and again, wide doorways.
• A few more staff around on stations - so at least the feeling you won't be leaving your bag on the platform when you l
• a public `kids are welcome, breast feed anywhere, ask for help` policy
• more station parking - because we tended to drive to the station, leave the car with the carseat in the car. Because getting taxi means carrying a heavy car seat around for 3 days or not using car seat (legal, but feels wrong).
• More M&S or mini waitrose in the stations, so can load more snacks.
• Indication if likely to be a lot of too pissed to standup, shouty, sweary football fans on that train. Medium pissed is ok. Annililated is not.

We used to book a lot of first class tickets, just for more space, especially on TPE (to Glasgow) and grand central.

We never had a bad experience. On one really cramped grand central service, one woman gave use a scowl for just breastfeeding at the table. Child was quiet and happy. 5 other random strangers got a cuddle and got well into playing with his toys with him.

The main tip in a city is to book a hotel really near the station with a bar and left luggage. So on arriving not far to carry bags. And on leaving, can spend all day out and about, get back and chill in the bar for an hour, retrieve bags, sort stuff out, walk to the station and evening train out.

My best travel experience (not rail) was a French easyjet steward who said loud enough for everybody nearby to hear `If you need to, breastfeeding is allowed on easyjet anywhere on the plane` with a look that said `any complaints and I'll bollock them for you`

I think parents stress about their kids causing trouble or upsetting people. But people are way less fussed. A cafe manager once told me that he didn't see any business downside from the occasional crying baby, yet most parents really worry.

I've also been amazing by the number of times people have really helped. A New York taxi driver who rang his booked job and said he would be late, so could drop us off (only a 10 min drive). Waved into the ladies toilet to use the changing table (I'm a bloke). Waitress holding the baby while we ate. Given a restaurant table and the `the people who booked it are late, I'll just tell them they missed it if they turn up`. Northern conductors giving the little one a ticket and stamping it for him.

I'm not in favour of special areas. Family coaches, breast feeding areas. It just implies that you shouldn't do those things if you don't fit in.

Surely it depends where you're travelling from - most of the major stations have the facilities you refer to. You're not going to justify an M&S Food To Go at somewhere like Tamworth or Keighley - and they are commercial operations, so the providers clearly won't set up where there isn't likely to be a good return.

Wide doors are provided on many trains - the longer distance ones aren't 'double doors' as you might find on commuter trains, but equally that would lead to a loss of capacity if you did increase it. On luggage space, you have to accept you're very much in the minority where train users are concerned in having a lot of luggage. Most people have a single bag with them. It's quite right that the TOCs have their trains set out in a way which benefits the most number of people - which unfortunately means you're not likely to get what you want.

On the last bullet point - I think that's down to you to check what football or other sports fixtures are on, it's not on the TOCs to say 'oh there's a football match on the date you're travelling'.

 

[Tim_UK]

I would advocate a family coach on long distance services.
As someone without children, I would rather avoid them, but also appreciate that those with children may wish to avoid adult groups drinking (eg stags, football etc).
Such a coach could have spaces for pushchairs etc, and an accessible coach for baby change. Perhaps a booster seat style set up may let children see out of the window, and an eye spy type booklet to allow parents to help them spot landmarks on the way.

I think a family coach would be ok, but wasted for a lot of the week. And then the school holidays come along, and people can say `you should be in the family coach`

Also if my child is sitting quietly, colouring, I probably don't want to be in a carriage with 30 kids.

And little kids can just take their shoes off and stand on the seats to see. Or sit on the table. Or just go and stand by the door where you can see. We are always prepped with a few little toys and stuff.

On luggage space, you have to accept you're very much in the minority where train users are concerned in having a lot of luggage. Most people have a single bag with them. It's quite right that the TOCs have their trains set out in a way which benefits the most number of people - which unfortunately means you're not likely to get what you want.

probably on a single bag and a buggy. But you don't want to leave either behind. so being able to get on and get rid of bit out of the way really quickly really helps when there are 10 more people behind you trying to get on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a 185, there is a decent bike area with fold down seats.

No bikes, drive the buggy straight on the train. Remove child, sit child on seat, fold buggy, put buggy under seat, fold the seat down and sit on it. Retrieve child onto knee, 3 people people stood up get a seat. Same in reverse near the destination. I've done this so many times.

Indeed the ball room beyond first class increases capacity. It is also good for a buggy, but you can get loads and loads of people in there sat on the floor, stood up etc. I mean crush loading isn't idea, but it gets people to their destination. Same thing, shove child on, carry on buggy and a big bag, arrange nicely under seats.

The problem with the "ballroom" (which is the same as you have on a 150/1, near enough) isn't that it exists but that it's the wrong side of First Class.

 

[Tim_UK]

The problem with the "ballroom" (which is the same as you have on a 150/1, near enough) isn't that it exists but that it's the wrong side of First Class.

nah its cool. My other half had a season ticket so could sit in first on a weekend. I sat on in the ballroom with the buggy. The child went back for forth through the doors about 40 times. (it wasn't busy)

You know you are going too many times when the conductor knows your other half has a season ticket without asking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

nah its cool

It might be better for parents, but it's not for almost everyone else, because it causes poor use of capacity and makes it appear there's only one toilet as well as causing traffic through 1st.

In a non-gangwayed unit 1st should always be at the cab end.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is Travelling with small children: What improvements could be made?

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then please use a more appropriate thread.

A couple of new threads have been split off from this one and can be found here:

Are the users of "Intercity" TOCs primarily long distance travelers or commuters?

moderator note: posts #1-#3 originally in this thread. The two requirements are mostly dealt with by different trains. Most users of Avanti West Coast, for example, are not commuters. And they are only a majority on GWR because of Reading. 1621334673 The answer regarding short DMUs is that...

www.railforums.co.uk

and

Obligations on parents to supervise their children

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/travelling-with-small-children-what-improvements-could-be-made.217491/ Turning it around slightly, there's also an obligation for parents to supervise their children. I'm not suggesting that children have to be glued to their...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Master29]

On some Swiss trains they've gone a step further by introducing a small play area in what looks like a classroom carriage with maps and things on the tables and a distinct classroom feel about it. A bit far fetched here in the UK but the family coach was a good idea but no longer done on GWR. I think it may still be done on LNER but not sure.

 

[6Gman]

A family carriage from the city to the seaside (or some other leisure destination) at the weekends and in summer would be well used, but how much demand would there be during term time?

And while you can imagine such a carriage on a 11 car Pendolino, what about shorter trains like a 3 car Turbostar? Or ones used by commuters during the week (say Brighton to London or the Javelin services) whose needs will be different?

Precisely.

The reality is that it is British practice generally to have standard trains within franchises. Which means the rolling stock design has to be a compromise.

The Pendolino working Saturday's Glasgow-Euston (lots of families, lots of luggage) may work Monday's 0600 Brum-Euston (business travellers and commuters carrying nothing larger than laptop cases). A square that cannot be circled.

So you end up with stock which is ok(ish) for both but not ideal for either.

 

[contrex]

Often travelling on the train is so quiet and boring. Then a couple of kiddies come scampering along the gangway, they accost total strangers and ask their name, where they are going etc

Really livens up my day, I am very friendly to them, they realise that strangers can be kindly. One senses that the parents are relieved that I am not annoyed by unsolicited attention from the little angels

A great place for children to develop their social skills under a bit of supervision

I was once in a train from Wolverhampton to Bristol. At New Street a mother and 2 kids got on The girl of about 9 and her mother sat opposite, and a boy next to me. The girl stared at me intently, and then spoke. "I daresay my mother will give you a biscuit". Her mother hastened to obey. The girl then asked me how old I was, what I did for a living, did I have any children, any pets, and, finally, did I know any jokes. I was intrigued and pleased, but a bit relieved when we got to Temple Meads!

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

@contrex
Very good.

For anyone who reads German: dbmobil, customer magazine of Deutsche Bahn, has a monthly column by Thilo Mischke where he recounts encounters on the train, often worth reading, in the May issue he describes meeting a nosy child (page 60). The magazine is available as a pdf online.

This one might be good for cheeky kiddies:

- Do you know how to arouse someone's curiosity?

- No, please tell me!

- I shall tell you at the end of the journey.

 

[LowLevel]

I was once in a train from Wolverhampton to Bristol. At New Street a mother and 2 kids got on The girl of about 9 and her mother sat opposite, and a boy next to me. The girl stared at me intently, and then spoke. "I daresay my mother will give you a biscuit". Her mother hastened to obey. The girl then asked me how old I was, what I did for a living, did I have any children, any pets, and, finally, did I know any jokes. I was intrigued and pleased, but a bit relieved when we got to Temple Meads!

Children can be very insightful and entertaining. As a conductor I enjoy spending time with them if they're interested in me. Seeing some little soul's face light up because you've given them a blank ticket with their name or a smiley face on can brighten the worst days.

I once spent 10 minutes or so chatting to a group of young girls who were part of a dance group going to Liverpool for a show. They were very excited and told me that they were off to a hotel named after a famous football manager (Shankly, obviously). 12 months later by complete coincidence I came across them all again doing the same thing and they remembered me from the last time - I was actually quite touched!

 

[LancasterRed]

Designated family coaches on long distance, 5+ coach trains but exclusively on weekends with the following changes:

• Giant stickers with board games printed on them, so they can be peeled off after the weekend ready for the Monday rat run. Dice and cards rentable at a deposit from the host/shop.
• Pop music played through the coach (or maybe not, this could get grating)
• Children's meals and other activities also buyable from the shop.
• If licensing can be agreed, one or two TVs playing children's shows throughout the carriage, in lieu of how airplanes used to have movies on them, but with the relevant information still being displayed to one side.

You want to make family coaches as appealing as possible and give children plenty to do. This achieves that and more, and can all be packed away for normal weekday operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Precisely.

The reality is that it is British practice generally to have standard trains within franchises. Which means the rolling stock design has to be a compromise.

True, and mostly that makes sense, though one where I'd definitely have dedicated stock is the Westcountry service and that, as a service that carries a lot of families, would do well to have a family coach.

 

[Robertj21a]

So far, I gather that we need more space, more tables, reserved coaches, larger toilets, special assistance availability and toys/games.....
I'm sure I must have missed something!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So far, I gather that we need more space, more tables, reserved coaches, larger toilets, special assistance availability and toys/games.....
I'm sure I must have missed something!

Yes, the little darlings...

 

[6Gman]

So far, I gather that we need more space, more tables, reserved coaches, larger toilets, special assistance availability and toys/games.....
I'm sure I must have missed something!

. . . and no increase in fares one assumes . . .

True, and mostly that makes sense, though one where I'd definitely have dedicated stock is the Westcountry service and that, as a service that carries a lot of families, would do well to have a family coach.

Are there any sets devoted to West Country services ?

 

[flitwickbeds]

I think parents stress about their kids causing trouble or upsetting people. But people are way less fussed

I once shared a Thameslink declassified first class table with 2 mums who had 5 children between them. The mums sat facing me and one of the children sat next to me, with the other 4 children on the table across the aisle.

They were loud, playing games and laughing with each other while the mums talked. I continued working on a project on my laptop, not exactly ignoring them all but never really interacting with them. When I stood up to leave I heard the child who was sitting next to me ask their mum why I was so serious. The response was "because he's a boring man who, if he doesn't like noise or sharing with children, shouldn't be on a train".

I didn't respond at all, but I genuinely had no ill feelings towards them as I had a new baby at the time. I was quite happy working on my laptop, their noise didn't distract me, I didn't (I don't think!) give off any vibes of annoyance, because I wasn't annoyed.

I've thought about how I would react differently if it happened again, and have decided to clearly explain upfront that they're welcome to make noise and play games, I am very good at tuning it out when working, and that I am in no way offended by them. Sadly the opportunity has never arisen to see if that works out any better!

 

[Sleepy]

True, and mostly that makes sense, though one where I'd definitely have dedicated stock is the Westcountry service and that, as a service that carries a lot of families, would do well to have a family coach.

and a buffet coach ? Lol