Because a dedicated family carriage sounds like a horrendous environment for all sorts of entitled parents... a lot of children prefer a quiet environment too, once they are more than about 5
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Travelling with small children: What improvements could be made?
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LSWR Cavalier
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You can now! On a full train I much prefer a gangway seat so I may go to the toilet without asking my neighbour.
I like meeting other people on trains too, better than say going to a pub to meet people. I met someone who became a really good friend on the railway, on the platform mind, not on the train, she was going the other way.
I think children, or rather their grown-up advocates, may favour integration. 'Children are people too'
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FAMILY COMPARTMENTS!
Like they have on DB.
I’ve been shouted down for this before, but as a Dad to two small children who often travels CrossCountry, both for work and leisure, having a few for families would be a win-win situation because:
The kids can play without escaping and annoying other passengers.
Other passengers are shielded, to an extent, from the noise.
It works on DB- you can only sit in them if accompanied by at least one child under 11.
They also have dedicated buggy/pram spaces and are located near toilets with baby change and the train doors.
Like they have on DB.
I’ve been shouted down for this before, but as a Dad to two small children who often travels CrossCountry, both for work and leisure, having a few for families would be a win-win situation because:
The kids can play without escaping and annoying other passengers.
Other passengers are shielded, to an extent, from the noise.
It works on DB- you can only sit in them if accompanied by at least one child under 11.
They also have dedicated buggy/pram spaces and are located near toilets with baby change and the train doors.
Just to clarify, as I think things have changed: ICEs have a Kleinkindabteil (baby/toddler compartment, next to the staff compartment) for under 3s (plus siblings), plus a Family Area which is a labelled area in a 2nd class coach - up to 6 rows of seats. (Reservations have to include an under-6 or under-15 respectively.) The family area should be do-able, not too far from an accessible toilet.
Purple Orange
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I’d have a carriage for all the miserable folk who love morning about other people’s kids. Let them inflict their entitled opinions on each other.
This is public transport, it comes with the territory that there could be a family of four sat on a table on the opposite side of the aisle. If you value your own personal environment that highly, get in the car. In my experience, most kids are well behaved and just like adults, a few get out of hand and it is fair to say that noisy adults are far more annoying than noisy kids.
A crying baby, tired or hyper children, an adult talking loudly on a phone, an adult streaming music or a film loudly, hen and stag parties - all can be frustrating. Yet the number of times young children break everyone’s peace and quiet is far more rare than the adults.
This is public transport, it comes with the territory that there could be a family of four sat on a table on the opposite side of the aisle. If you value your own personal environment that highly, get in the car. In my experience, most kids are well behaved and just like adults, a few get out of hand and it is fair to say that noisy adults are far more annoying than noisy kids.
A crying baby, tired or hyper children, an adult talking loudly on a phone, an adult streaming music or a film loudly, hen and stag parties - all can be frustrating. Yet the number of times young children break everyone’s peace and quiet is far more rare than the adults.
Robertj21a
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All very true I'm sure - but the question was what improvements could be made. I agree that anyone who does not want distractions from screaming kids (or adults) will probably go by car anyway.
Purple Orange
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But by inference, there are no improvements to be made in the context of travelling with families alone. Greater space for wheelchairs and pushchairs plus more luggage space. It benefits us all.
So, if anybody is using public transport, they should reasonably expect a family to sit next to them. Right? Not "families should sit where they are told to sit, away from me"
Call it the "Quiet Coach"
Yes, the kleinkindbereich is a God-send if you have an energetic toddler. This is the sort of thing HS2 should be considering for its trains.
I travelled on the IC Interlaken Berlin service a few years ago. 5 of us really valued the compartments on the DB train. Plenty of opportunity to stretch legs walking to buffet and much easier to picnic in compartment. NB this was not a special family compartment: our children were older. So compartments a good idea, provided passengers feel secure. SNCF has removed most compartment doors from its TER stock but nevertheless these are still much prized by families and groups. Very convivial for chat, games etc, leaving those who prefer isolation with headsets on free to use the airline seats.
The crazy seat configurations on some uk trains need sorting, why have airline seats opposite tables for four? Thats not much use for larger family groups and increases the risk of kids irritating passengers trapped in airline seats immediately opposite. Also window alignment, kids love to look out of a window so why put a table against a pillar? We need some of the youtube film makers to mock these layouts and shame train companies into improving matters.
The crazy seat configurations on some uk trains need sorting, why have airline seats opposite tables for four? Thats not much use for larger family groups and increases the risk of kids irritating passengers trapped in airline seats immediately opposite. Also window alignment, kids love to look out of a window so why put a table against a pillar? We need some of the youtube film makers to mock these layouts and shame train companies into improving matters.
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Ok, I'm typing this before finishing the whole thread. Great Western have had both the 'Family Carriage' (next door to the HST buffet) and TVs in seat backs, only 1 carriage per train. With everyone having phones and most trains having WIFI, the latter would possibly be a lot of expense for little gain, BUT, an up to date version of the former might be good.
If there were to be a new 'Family Carriage', I'd suggest multi-age fun graphics could be applied to the windows, a few airline seats lost to add a few more tables, a generic WiFi password (perhaps restricted to that one coach/set) be plastered to the back of each seat. FC has to be in a fixed location and with decent toilet/changing provision and although people will swear at me, be reservation only between certain times - otherwise the easy Wifi could be hijacked by Middle Aged men with teddies! A bigger spend for the operator, but nice to have, would be a passenger operated electric ramp on that coach (possibly also useable for wheelchairs and catering trolleys), though I'm not sure how H&S would feel.
Yup, like this, maybe there is a compromise between this and my reservation only suggestion above
If there were to be a new 'Family Carriage', I'd suggest multi-age fun graphics could be applied to the windows, a few airline seats lost to add a few more tables, a generic WiFi password (perhaps restricted to that one coach/set) be plastered to the back of each seat. FC has to be in a fixed location and with decent toilet/changing provision and although people will swear at me, be reservation only between certain times - otherwise the easy Wifi could be hijacked by Middle Aged men with teddies! A bigger spend for the operator, but nice to have, would be a passenger operated electric ramp on that coach (possibly also useable for wheelchairs and catering trolleys), though I'm not sure how H&S would feel.
Yup, like this, maybe there is a compromise between this and my reservation only suggestion above
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But trains should be as accesible as buses, it just needs the right design at time of order, not a set of instuctions.
Level boarding is certainly helpful with prams, but the space available inside to deal with the pram is the bigger deal really.
Robertj21a
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I see no reason why a new train shouldn't have full access for all users. If a bus can cope then a train certainly should be properly designed to cope.
It's always going to be a compromise on a network with alot of legacy infrastructure constraints.
Robertj21a
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Have you considered how many bus stops across the UK had to amended to handle level floor access for wheelchairs etc?
Technically much easier (and less disruptive) to achieve than a station platform.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I do think DB's 1990s Metropolitan service had a point, with ambiances intended for specific groups rather than classes. HS2 might do well to look at that.
I know you like throwing everyone in together, but with a 400m train I think it is just as valid to provide a family area with facilities aimed at those with young children and a business area where a level of decorum is expected (but conference calls, which might annoy families as much as families playing cartoons out loud annoy business people, would be allowed). And a silence area intended for those who want genuine silence. Etc.
Why not reduce conflict by providing for disparate needs in such a long train?
Remember we want to attract people out of cars, not tell them to go away and drive just because they do or don't want to interact with others. Indeed, providing a sit in bar car, specifically intended for that, is another potential good option.
Robertj21a
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This is going to end up being a mighty long train if it keeps getting more and more dedicated areas. Goodness knows what happens when one of these dedicated areas has to be taken out of use for some reason....
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Half a kilometre, well, 400m, provides plenty of space for such options.
This is going to end up being a mighty long train if it keeps getting more and more dedicated areas. Goodness knows what happens when one of these dedicated areas has to be taken out of use for some reason....
Sounds like the solution is to change from open carriages to ones with compartments - and then allow people to book compartments - or to label passengers and label comp[artments so like types travel with like types. We could have no-mobiles, no smelly food, no humming, no finger drumming in one compartment .... and then if it came to it split the mobile phones uses into those who were continuous and those who were intermittient and those having general chit chat to those giving lifestyle coaching and advice and dealing with breakups. Somewhere in this we could categories kids as well behaved and quiet through to screamers and runners and combone that with different types of parenting.
There could be a place for everone. How many compartments per carriage? 8? and 9 or 11 carriages per train? That would allow 72 to 88 different selectins of travelling humanity.
Booking a train would be like filling in a dating form with all your detailed attributes, likes, dislikes - and the reservations could be allocated accordingly.
Robertj21a
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I guess we have to include a McDonalds and play area, courtesy of Lego. A vegan area might be useful too......
When my kids were small, what mattered was getting on & off the train; the rest was just frippery.
Two journeys will serve for comparison. One was with a 5 year old and a 2 year old, from Bodmin to Exeter. My memory of that was rushing to join the return working and then being split on a very full HST as the only available seats were in the quiet coach. It was stressful.
The other, with kids by then 6 & 9, was long haul to Australia. There, early boarding and considerate stewarding made the experience very smooth despite the tremendously long times the kids had to endure. This worked despite sitting in different rows.
Other stuff, like “child friendly” environments, is just frippery and a distraction from getting the basics right.
Two journeys will serve for comparison. One was with a 5 year old and a 2 year old, from Bodmin to Exeter. My memory of that was rushing to join the return working and then being split on a very full HST as the only available seats were in the quiet coach. It was stressful.
The other, with kids by then 6 & 9, was long haul to Australia. There, early boarding and considerate stewarding made the experience very smooth despite the tremendously long times the kids had to endure. This worked despite sitting in different rows.
Other stuff, like “child friendly” environments, is just frippery and a distraction from getting the basics right.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Before this gets a bit too silly, have a read of the Regiojet offering, which is the sort of thing I mean:
Services on the train - comfort, peace and fun
On the yellow trains, you can expect a superior service in the form of refreshments, free hot drinks during the journey, daily newspapers and magazines and an entertainment portal.
www.regiojet.com
Though I do find their obsession with mint tea a little bizarre.
Virtuální Prohlídka - Vlakové Vozy RegioJet
Virtuální prohlídky - Autobus Fun&Relax Student Agency. Výrobce: virtualni-prohlidka.eu, Produkce Virtuální Prohlídky, vizualizace interiéru, videoprohlídky, fotografie architektury a reklamní fotografie.
www.regiojet.sk
This ^
If continental trains have them, why can’t we?
Simple one... Family tickets. That action make using the train a sensible choice over the car economically.
One of our regular trips is Manchester to York for a night or two.
As a single person the train wins on ££ all things considered. But add the missus and two kids the car is by far the cheaper option even paying for parking in York.
Even a family rail card doesn't make it work.
But group travel costs are a long-standing problem with rail Vs road.
That and simple fares. I long for a Peak , off peak, advance 7 day, advance 14 and advance 30. Could call them peak, cheap day, and apex.
Recent train journey with the family resulted in fistfuls of tickets all poorly printed and with receipts and sales vouchers.
The only problem I encountered was there was a member of staff yelling something in a a very animated way at us from opposite platform (large gap between). I have no idea what I was kneeling down behind the yellow line with my 3yr old on reins watching the train that we was about to catch pull in.
One of our regular trips is Manchester to York for a night or two.
As a single person the train wins on ££ all things considered. But add the missus and two kids the car is by far the cheaper option even paying for parking in York.
Even a family rail card doesn't make it work.
But group travel costs are a long-standing problem with rail Vs road.
That and simple fares. I long for a Peak , off peak, advance 7 day, advance 14 and advance 30. Could call them peak, cheap day, and apex.
Recent train journey with the family resulted in fistfuls of tickets all poorly printed and with receipts and sales vouchers.
The only problem I encountered was there was a member of staff yelling something in a a very animated way at us from opposite platform (large gap between). I have no idea what I was kneeling down behind the yellow line with my 3yr old on reins watching the train that we was about to catch pull in.
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That is going to depend strongly on your journey. For me to visit family, the train is much more expensive than driving, nearly double the price, at least when comparing the ticket to the fuel. I would estimate many localish journeys up to 30 miles are cheaper to drive for me. If you can't get an advance ticket, rail travel is very expensive. Next time I do a point-to-point trek in Scotland, I am considering driving up from SE England and leaving the car somewhere for a few days to avoid the £300+ cost of getting the sleeper each way.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Advance booking deadlines provide very poor yield management, though.
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