TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Late Trains uk]

It was on 2:00-2:30ish on Monday.

Whether this was to deal with tourists at half term and their extra luggage or if it's a regular thing, I don't know.

I am not too knowledgeable on what type it was (all buses look the same to me) but it was definitely a coach.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Say a scientist runs an experiment, he doesn't know what result to expect but there is one outcome which he believes is impossible. However, the result is the apparently impossible one, so he re-runs the experiment and gets the same seemingly impossible result. He then tries to work out what it is that makes the seemingly impossible outcome possible. That's where I'm stuck at the moment with this coach business, you are presenting reports of the impossible and I can't fathom what makes it possible.

Yes, but the scientist can also recognise that something happens and can then ascertain why it happens through evidence.

The evidence has been provided "ad infinitum" and yet it still seems you say "I can't see how it's possible" or more gallingly, "no-one has provided information" when they have.

What you're coming out with is essentially "I have little or no knowledge of anything except the X50, and yet I won't believe what others with more knowledge are telling me". When I say others, not just posters on this thread but information that is readily available on the internet and for which you've been provided the links...

As I say, it's not the fact that you don't know how coach services operated as local bus services whilst stopping at any safe place and in the absence of designated bus stops. We can appreciate that you've been sheltered in your Cardiganshire bolthole. We have all had the chance to learn and experience things. However, we can also take on board what others tell us and learn things.

 

[tbtc]

I understand most of what you are saying, with a few exceptions, such as when you were on about stopping at customary points rather than anywhere safe. However I am having difficulty believing one minor point, which perhaps I am attaching rather too much importance to since it only concerns a small minority of passengers.

Say a scientist runs an experiment, he doesn't know what result to expect but there is one outcome which he believes is impossible. However, the result is the apparently impossible one, so he re-runs the experiment and gets the same seemingly impossible result. He then tries to work out what it is that makes the seemingly impossible outcome possible. That's where I'm stuck at the moment with this coach business, you are presenting reports of the impossible and I can't fathom what makes it possible.

You are thinking about this far too much - it happens on several routes elsewhere in the UK every day, on regular services.

Drivers manage to understand it, passengers manage to understand it. I appreciate that you don't "get" the concept, but trust me, it works.

 

[DaveHarries]

From today's VOSA Bus Registrations for Wales:

PG0007245/210 - ARRIVA CYMRU LTD T/A ARRIVA BUSES WALES, LLANDYGAI INDUSTRIAL ESTATE, LLANDYGAI, GWYNEDD, BANGOR, LL57 4YH
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between WREXHAM, BUS STATION and BARMOUTH, JUBILEE ROAD given service number X94/94 effective from 22-Dec-2013.

PG0007245/295 - ARRIVA CYMRU LTD T/A ARRIVA BUSES WALES, LLANDYGAI INDUSTRIAL ESTATE, LLANDYGAI, GWYNEDD, BANGOR, LL57 4YH
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Aberystwyth Bus Station and Carmarthen Bus Station given service number 40/20/50 effective from 22-Dec-2013.

No mention of Carmarthen - Cardiff section on that second registration though.....

Dave

 

[Rhydgaled]

From today's VOSA Bus Registrations for Wales:

PG0007245/210 - ARRIVA CYMRU LTD T/A ARRIVA BUSES WALES, LLANDYGAI INDUSTRIAL ESTATE, LLANDYGAI, GWYNEDD, BANGOR, LL57 4YH
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between WREXHAM, BUS STATION and BARMOUTH, JUBILEE ROAD given service number X94/94 effective from 22-Dec-2013.

PG0007245/295 - ARRIVA CYMRU LTD T/A ARRIVA BUSES WALES, LLANDYGAI INDUSTRIAL ESTATE, LLANDYGAI, GWYNEDD, BANGOR, LL57 4YH
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Aberystwyth Bus Station and Carmarthen Bus Station given service number 40/20/50 effective from 22-Dec-2013.

No mention of Carmarthen - Cardiff section on that second registration though.....

Dave

Thanks for the update.

I wouldn't read too much into that last point, the 50 service doesn't operate between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen, yet that service number is also listed.

Does "effective from 22-Dec-2013" mean the 22nd is the last day of operation or the first day of no service? And no registration for replacment services yet?

 

[Bwsbro]

Gwynedd Council have just placed up an invitation to tender for a TrawsCymru X94 Service between Barmouth and Wrexham Monday - Saturday Daytime between the 23/12/2013 and 22/6/2014. (Therefore still no daily T3)

It seems from the ITT that the evening only GHA Services will continue untill the end of the temporary contract

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks for the update.

I wouldn't read too much into that last point, the 50 service doesn't operate between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen, yet that service number is also listed.

Does "effective from 22-Dec-2013" mean the 22nd is the last day of operation or the first day of no service? And no registration for replacment services yet?

Yes, that's the date of closure. As for Dave's point, it is important that the Cardiff registration cancellation hasn't come through. That said, there isn't one for the 585 so expect them today or tomorrow.

 

[WestyAds]

Yes, that's the date of closure. As for Dave's point, it is important that the Cardiff registration cancellation hasn't come through. That said, there isn't one for the 585 so expect them today or tomorrow.

The 585's running a bit longer, I think, into 2014 (February-ish springs to mind) as unlike the other routes it's a tendered service. At least, that's what I recall from what was said when the cancellations were first announced.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The 585's running a bit longer, I think, into 2014 (February-ish springs to mind) as unlike the other routes it's a tendered service. At least, that's what I recall from what was said when the cancellations were first announced.

Would suspect the 585 will be surrendered when the depot closes. May have been due for retender unless there's some stipulated notice period. That said, why worry about upsetting the council?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Would suspect the 585 will be surrendered when the depot closes. May have been due for retender unless there's some stipulated notice period. That said, why worry about upsetting the council?

lol why indeed? after all they never worried about upsetting the council when they were "committed" to aberystwyth... so why change the habit of a life time now they're abandoning it?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes, that's the date of closure.

It wasn't a yes/no question.

To put the question another way, will the Sunday service on the 22nd be running?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It wasn't a yes/no question.

To put the question another way, will the Sunday service on the 22nd be running?

No, the cancellation is effective (i.e. the first day it takes effect) from the 22nd. Last day of operation is the Saturday which is the way changes are usually managed (i.e. finish Saturday, new times Sunday).

 

[Rhydgaled]

No, the cancellation is effective (i.e. the first day it takes effect) from the 22nd. Last day of operation is the Saturday which is the way changes are usually managed (i.e. finish Saturday, new times Sunday).

Ok, thanks.

Is a replacement Sunday service likely? I think we are already passed the minimum of 56 days notice for replacments to be introduced on the 22nd, unless the new services have already been registered.

I suppose the "replacing a substantially similar service by another operator" defence might allow a short-notice registration but "to connect with an altered rail, ferry or air service" didn't seem to work when the Fishguard trial rail service started (they had to offer a free bus for a while until the propper registration took effect). And how similar is "substantially similar" anyway?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ok, thanks.

Is a replacement Sunday service likely? I think we are already passed the minimum of 56 days notice for replacments to be introduced on the 22nd, unless the new services have already been registered.

I suppose the "replacing a substantially similar service by another operator" defence might allow a short-notice registration but "to connect with an altered rail, ferry or air service" didn't seem to work when the Fishguard trial rail service started (they had to offer a free bus for a while until the propper registration took effect). And how similar is "substantially similar" anyway?

Is a replacement Sunday service likely? Who knows? Depends on possible council funding potentially.

As for anything being registered, doesn't appear so. Checked Traveline for 28 Dec and times are still Arriva 40/40C so that's not been updated.

As for short notice registrations, then replacing an existing service that is being withdrawn to avoid significant adverse passenger impact on a broadly similar timetable might be appropriate.

In this instance, you might have an operator that will step in to replace the daytime journeys on a like for like basis but doesn't want to do evenings/Sundays and the council might not want to/be able to fund tenders, or at least to the same level. Therefore, the registration to undertake the daytime services (broadly similar) may be waved through <56 days even though the whole timetable isn't copied in entirety.

As you've probably guessed, the rules are not absolute so as to give some discretion to VOSA/TCs, depending on circumstances.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Have overheard Richards Bros drivers twice now telling other passengers that the 40 will be taken up by Lloyds (of Machynlleth!) and Morris Travel of Carmarthen. I wonder how accurate the driver's intel is though.

 

[Bwsbro]

Have overheard Richards Bros drivers twice now telling other passengers that the 40 will be taken up by Lloyds (of Machynlleth!) and Morris Travel of Carmarthen. I wonder how accurate the driver's intel is though.

I heard that Lloyds are going to replace some of the services being withdrawn by Arriva, following a conversation between of Gha Coaches, Arriva Buses Wales-Dolgellau Depot and Lloyds Coaches in Dolgellau on Sunday.

 

[trawscymru27]

Right, based on operation by Lloyds Coaches and Morris Travel I have put together a possible timetable with a PVR of 5 (3 from Morris/an operator at the southern end and 2 from Lloyds/an operator at the northern end) for the 40 (re-numbered T1) service. I have used timings broadly similar to the existing ones and have put in rail connections using the current timetables.

Comments would be welcomed.

 

[adey2011]

Right, based on operation by Lloyds Coaches and Morris Travel I have put together a possible timetable with a PVR of 5 (3 from Morris/an operator at the southern end and 2 from Lloyds/an operator at the northern end) for the 40 (re-numbered T1) service. I have used timings broadly similar to the existing ones and have put in rail connections using the current timetables.

Comments would be welcomed.

Interesting, I hadn't considered Lloyds venturing south, my thinking was MWT might go for the 40 with Lloyds going for a joint service with GHA on the X94

 

[adey2011]

I would have thought Lloyds would have favoured a joint service with GHA on the X94 service with MWT going for the 40 service, interesting speculation though. No company has yet registered anything on VOSA which could indicate that the potential runners are hoping for tendered work rather than commercial. Indeed in this weeks Cambrian news Arriva have hinted heavily that they would consider a U turn for tendered contracts.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Right, based on operation by Lloyds Coaches and Morris Travel I have put together a possible timetable with a PVR of 5 (3 from Morris/an operator at the southern end and 2 from Lloyds/an operator at the northern end) for the 40 (re-numbered T1) service. I have used timings broadly similar to the existing ones and have put in rail connections using the current timetables.

Comments would be welcomed.

well done... we have an operator that is already running on those times... the 701... are you proposing that any new service should run an established commercial operator off the road using welsh government funding? this would be highly illegal... no subsidised service (whether subsidised by local councils, devolved government or national government) is allowed to directly compete with a commercial operation.

Also I would point out that the point to point timings you have used bear no resemblance to the current timings used by arriva, richards bros, or bryans coaches... timings that have been established through years of distilled experience.

on another note there are reports that arriva is reconsidering their position, saying they are willing to continue operating on condition that their contract is renegotiated...

2 problems with this....

1. By their own admission the services are commercial therefore there is no contract to renegotiate.

2. even if they were contracted services the only form of renegotiation the law allows for is for arriva to give notice on their contract and then for the councils concerned to put the services out to competitive tender.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Right, based on operation by Lloyds Coaches and Morris Travel I have put together a possible timetable with a PVR of 5 (3 from Morris/an operator at the southern end and 2 from Lloyds/an operator at the northern end) for the 40 (re-numbered T1) service. I have used timings broadly similar to the existing ones and have put in rail connections using the current timetables.

Comments would be welcomed.

Any chance you could translate the notes on your draft timetable into English please, particularly whatever it says regarding the X50/550 service?

Your southbound service is very similar to the one I came up with a while back, departing Aberystwyth at xx:35. However my northbound service was timed to arrive Aberystwyth at xx:15. That pattern is all well and good for the TC1, as it connects with rail services nicely. However, then I realised that if you maintain the 30-minute interval service between Aberystwyth and Aberaeron then the X50/50/550 service would have to depart Aberystwyth at xx:05. This would be abysmal since commuters from work/university finishing on the hour would not be able to get to the bus stop to catch it and anyone for Cardigan/New Quay would have a wait of nearly an hour if not more for a bus.

xx:15 and xx:45 departures from Aberystwyth, as now, would be better for commuters but I've been struggling to work out good arrival times which don't increase the PVR by having a bus wait arround for nearly an hour at one end or another.

Another idea I've had is to have an alternate-hours Aberaeron - Lampeter service via those villages that lost the X40 to try and pacify the complainers.

on another note there are reports that arriva is reconsidering their position, saying they are willing to continue operating on condition that their contract is renegotiated...

2 problems with this....

1. By their own admission the services are commercial therefore there is no contract to renegotiate.

2. even if they were contracted services the only form of renegotiation the law allows for is for arriva to give notice on their contract and then for the councils concerned to put the services out to competitive tender.

Maybe what they really mean is they are going to bid for the competitive tender. That said, with 'emergency measures' will there be a competitive tender?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

an emergency contract can only last for long enough for the competitive tender to be put out and for contracts to start... usually 3 months

 

[trawscymru27]

I appreciate the comments about the legalities of the service operation and I would in no way wish to see the loss of the 701 service; my thoughts were simply to create a timetable which would be attractive to passengers. Perhaps it is somewhat unrealistic given the economic climate... Could you suggest what is wrong with the timings I've used? I have based it on the current 40/40C timetable so I don't think there can be many issues.

'Gwelwch yr amserlen am gwasanaethau 550/X50 am mwy o siwrnau rhwng Aberaeron ac Aberystwyth' means 'see timetable for X50/550 services for more journeys between Aberaeron and Aberystwyth' (though I made a mistake on the timetable ).

 

[Rhydgaled]

my thoughts were simply to create a timetable which would be attractive to passengers. Perhaps it is somewhat unrealistic given the economic climate...

I think it is quite a good timetable in itself, and I would hope a service like that would be attractive to passengers. It is actually very similar to what I came up with, with services running 6am to 8pm as was orriginally claimed for TC1.

The problem is that having the TC1 depart Aberystwyth at xx:35 means the 550/X50/50 service(s) have to leave at xx:05 to keep a 30-minute interval to Aberaeron. xx:05 would not be an attractive depature time from Aberystwyth, and boosting the frequency to every 20mins to Aberaeron would probably increase the subsidy (given that Pembrokeshire's bus service network faces a Beeching axe in Spring 2014 I doubt that would be affordable).

I have based it on the current 40/40C timetable so I don't think there can be many issues.

No you haven't. The 40 leaves Aberystwyth at xx:45 currently, with the 50 departing at xx:15. If by timing you mean running time, I don't think much of the 40's punctiality at the moment so use a running time of 2hr 15mins on my TC1 timetable.

'Gwelwch yr amserlen am gwasanaethau 550/X50 am mwy o siwrnau rhwng Aberaeron ac Aberystwyth' means 'see timetable for X50/550 services for more journeys between Aberaeron and Aberystwyth' (though I made a mistake on the timetable ).

Thanks. Although we have no idea what form the 50/550/X50 will take in future. Currently X50/550 has very few journeys between Aberystwyth and Aberaeron anyway, but if Richards Bros get a share of the 50 I hope things will change in that regard.

 

[anthony263]

I have been having a look through a timetable I have from National Wlesh. Certainly there are some very interesting routes in it. I found a copy for services between Aberystywth and Cardiff.

In addition to the 701 there was also a service X52 which ran via Ammanford & Port Talbot with a journey time of just over 5 hours.

Back to todays Trawscymru network, I do hope Lloyds take this opportnity to expand and take over the Aberystywth to Carmarthen route. I have seen a few routes which have been given up by the big boys because it was unprofitable only for the local independant to make a sucess out of it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have been having a look through a timetable I have from National Wlesh. Certainly there are some very interesting routes in it. I found a copy for services between Aberystywth and Cardiff.

In addition to the 701 there was also a service X52 which ran via Ammanford & Port Talbot with a journey time of just over 5 hours.

Back to todays Trawscymru network, I do hope Lloyds take this opportnity to expand and take over the Aberystywth to Carmarthen route. I have seen a few routes which have been given up by the big boys because it was unprofitable only for the local independant to make a sucess out of it.

Got to remember that independents (whilst not having the purchasing power of big boys for fuel and the like) don't generally have the pensions liabilities that big firms do, and can run at lower margins.

The X52 was the successor to the Crosville S52 (in turn successor to Western Welsh 611). Service ran broadly Aber to Lampeter then Llanwrda, Llandeilo to Ammanford. The X52 was the successor in the 1980's and was extended to Swansea (though didn't recall PT). It was jointly operated by SWT and Crosville and the two journeys would meet at Pumpsaint and the drivers would swap vehicles. Hence Crosville would use the SWT vehicle during the day in Aber and then return it back on the evening run.

Vehicles used were Bristol RE coaches (Crosville) and some horrid Duple (bus shell) Bedfords with semi coach seats. Service lasted til de-reg in 1986 and then finally disappeared having withered on the vine for years.

In truth, the reason it went was the decline in the summer holiday trade from the valleys to Aber, allied to general declines in bus standards and poor timetabling. Also, the stretch from Lampeter to Llanwrda has virtually no population!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Back to todays Trawscymru network, I do hope Lloyds take this opportnity to expand and take over the Aberystywth to Carmarthen route. I have seen a few routes which have been given up by the big boys because it was unprofitable only for the local independant to make a sucess out of it.

I think it more likely that the 40/ 40C will be taken over by mid wales travel and morris travel... they are in a much better position geographically to do so... after all I can't see Lloyds running so much dead mileage to/ from machynllyth to operate the service... that would be sure to eat up any chance of profit.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think it more likely that the 40/ 40C will be taken over by mid wales travel and morris travel... they are in a much better position geographically to do so... after all I can't see Lloyds running so much dead mileage to/ from machynllyth

I agree, but the Richards Bros driver definately said Lloyds and Morris. Maybe he was mistaken, or maybe Lloyds are planning to take over Arriva's depot in Aberystwyth to save the dead mileage?

 

[anthony263]

It could be that lloyds will set up a small outstation perhaps in Aberystwyth or even perhaps at a site closer to Carmarthen. After all it would allow Lloyds to expand and go after contracts in other area's

 

[adey2011]

It could be that lloyds will set up a small outstation perhaps in Aberystwyth or even perhaps at a site closer to Carmarthen. After all it would allow Lloyds to expand and go after contracts in other area's

An interesting thought regarding Lloyds taking over the Aberystwyth depot, I was wondering whether they might consider taking over Dolgellau depot which would be ideal as a base for their current Dolgellau services and also if they have desires to share the X94 with GHA it would save a lot of dead mileage to and from Machynlleth, plus there will be drivers available once Arriva pull out. Whatever happens nobody is in a rush to show their hand and register with VOSA. Would it be feasible for Lloyds to operate the 40 as an extension of the T2 service, that is if it goes out to tender. The dead mileage though from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth is not a goer financially or operationally without a Southern out station.