TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Rhydgaled]

this is a 12m Plaxton Panther, http://tellingsgoldenmiller.hostinguk.com/images/seat_plans/Coach Plan 49 Seats Center.GIF

There seems to be a seat in the doorway on that. And the obvious gaps on the low-floor bus seem to be the wheelchair and luggage spaces. Even the emergency exit door's new location (thanks to new regulations apparently) seems to have more impact than the wheel arches.

The wheelchair space on the Tempo seems to be the same size as the hole on the coach (I'm guessing that's either a toilet or a wheelchair space). Discounting the seat that seems to be in the doorway, the coach seems to have two rows of seats more than the Tempo. One of those rows is accounted for by the luggage racks on the Tempo. I can't figure out where the other extra row of seats comes from, are you sure that's a 12m coach plan not something slightly longer? It seems to map to the X1260 Tempo quite well, with the coach having one row of seats more due to lack of luggage racks on the coach. By the way this comparison is with the standard Tempo layout, and the legroom looks the same to me on the seat plans, so not quite good enough for a 2hr journey in my opinion.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There seems to be a seat in the doorway on that. And the obvious gaps on the low-floor bus seem to be the wheelchair and luggage spaces. Even the emergency exit door's new location (thanks to new regulations apparently) seems to have more impact than the wheel arches.

The wheelchair space on the Tempo seems to be the same size as the hole on the coach (I'm guessing that's either a toilet or a wheelchair space). Discounting the seat that seems to be in the doorway, the coach seems to have two rows of seats more than the Tempo. One of those rows is accounted for by the luggage racks on the Tempo. I can't figure out where the other extra row of seats comes from, are you sure that's a 12m coach plan not something slightly longer? It seems to map to the X1260 Tempo quite well, with the coach having one row of seats more due to lack of luggage racks on the coach. By the way this comparison is with the standard Tempo layout, and the legroom looks the same to me on the seat plans, so not quite good enough for a 2hr journey in my opinion.

Oooh my ribs.

A seat in the doorway?? Yep, there's another behind the steering wheel!! Could it be the courier/second driver seat??

Lack of luggage racks on the coach? Overhead? And underfloor lockers?

I'm beginning to think TL may be right. No one person can be so uninformed

 

[Rhydgaled]

A seat in the doorway?? Yep, there's another behind the steering wheel!!

The one behind the steering wheel doesn't get in the way of passengers trying to get on. That other seat may be a tip-up, but it looks like it would still be in the way when occupied.

Lack of luggage racks on the coach? Overhead?

Yes, overhead. I'm just pointing out that it if the Tempo had overhead racks instead of the ones it has, you might just squeese in an extra row of seats. In fact, at least one of the X40 Cardiff vehicles has overhead racks, but these are in addition to two large ground racks too. Depending on where you sit, those overhead racks on the Tempos can slightly intrude on the view out of the windows.

Maybe that's another reason I'm not a fan of coaches actually, the overhead luggage racks make them feel more cramped.

 

[topydre]

From Alun Williams' blog this morning (http://bronglais.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/funding-agreed-for-ceredigion-bus-routes.html):
"The Welsh Government has agreed to fund alternative contracts for the Ceredigion bus services due to be lost when Arriva pulls out on 21st December.

The routes involved are:
The 40 service from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen via Lampeter
The 50 service from Aberystwyth to Synod Inn
The announcement that £162,000 revenue funding will be made available to the end of June comes after several weeks of behind-the-scenes negotiations during which Ceredigion Council made a very strong case for the vital economic role the services play in Ceredigion.

The 40 and 50 services run on previously unsubsidised commercial routes and it was very difficult to see how the Council could be expected to take on their funding at a time when it is being asked to make huge savings in the next financial year due to grant money being lost from central government.

The news will be a great relief to the many people entirely dependent on these bus services to get to and from work who had been viewing the planned pull-out with trepidation. Transport Minister Edwina Hart has also pleased campaigners by saying that in future the routes will be regarded as nationally strategic.

Ceredigion Council will now proceed with the tendering arrangements for the routes.

The 585 service from Aberystwyth to Lampeter via Tregaron, which Arriva has announced it will pull out of on February 15th, is already subsidised by the council and new tenders for this will also be sought."

It looks a very good step forward

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The one behind the steering wheel doesn't get in the way of passengers trying to get on. That other seat may be a tip-up, but it looks like it would still be in the way when occupied.

Yes, overhead. I'm just pointing out that it if the Tempo had overhead racks instead of the ones it has, you might just squeese in an extra row of seats. In fact, at least one of the X40 Cardiff vehicles has overhead racks, but these are in addition to two large ground racks too. Depending on where you sit, those overhead racks on the Tempos can slightly intrude on the view out of the windows.

Maybe that's another reason I'm not a fan of coaches actually, the overhead luggage racks make them feel more cramped.

This is hilarious. Of course it's a tip up seat....have you ever got on a coach or bus with a fixed seat in the doorway? It's for those touring coaches and expresses with either a second driver and/or a courier. You don't have to have it and you wouldn't, so forget it.

As for an extra row of seats in a Tempo instead of luggage racks....don't you think that Optare might have thought of that?? The fact is that they've put luggage space there as it is difficult to use that space for seating!

I won't talk about aesthetics as that is a personal and subjective thing. However, you will get a better view from a coach (even with overhead racks) than a low floor bus simply by being higher up. Surely even that much is obvious??

 

[swifty]

There seems to be a seat in the doorway on that. And the obvious gaps on the low-floor bus seem to be the wheelchair and luggage spaces. Even the emergency exit door's new location (thanks to new regulations apparently) seems to have more impact than the wheel arches.

The wheelchair space on the Tempo seems to be the same size as the hole on the coach (I'm guessing that's either a toilet or a wheelchair space). Discounting the seat that seems to be in the doorway, the coach seems to have two rows of seats more than the Tempo. One of those rows is accounted for by the luggage racks on the Tempo. I can't figure out where the other extra row of seats comes from, are you sure that's a 12m coach plan not something slightly longer? It seems to map to the X1260 Tempo quite well, with the coach having one row of seats more due to lack of luggage racks on the coach. By the way this comparison is with the standard Tempo layout, and the legroom looks the same to me on the seat plans, so not quite good enough for a 2hr journey in my opinion.

I despair! You've taken those diagrams, which are not to scale, far to literally! Do you really think a coach would actually have that little legroom?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I despair! You've taken those diagrams, which are not to scale, far to literally! Do you really think a coach would actually have that little legroom?

Swifty - I know you're right but we're having to contend with someone who will grab onto any scintilla of information in order to phrase the question so that the answer is "Optare Tempo".

 

[Robertj21a]

Swifty - I know you're right but we're having to contend with someone who will grab onto any scintilla of information in order to phrase the question so that the answer is "Optare Tempo".

Surprised to find this thread still continuing - I gave up dealing with the Tempo-loving nonsense being spouted some time ago.

Wouldn't it be better to leave him alone in his own world ?

Robert

 

[quarella]

During my brief coach driving career in the early 1990s. 10.5m =45 seats, 11m 53 seats, 12m 57 seats. With a toilet and continental door the standard became 49 seats. Accommodating a lift and space for a wheelchair I would estimate taking out two rows.
Anthony263- Something is niggling at the back of my mind that a 15m coach had to be able take the same arc when turning as a 12m hence, rear wheel steering.
May I suggest Rhydegaled you try different seats as the pitch can vary. If you really cannot find a seat you can fit into in the rest of the bus/coach the middle one at the very back should solve your problem.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I despair! You've taken those diagrams, which are not to scale, far to literally! Do you really think a coach would actually have that little legroom?

They look to scale to me. And yes, I do think a coach would have that little legroom because every coach I've ever been on (admittedly very few) have had that little legroom.

This is hilarious. Of course it's a tip up seat....have you ever got on a coach or bus with a fixed seat in the doorway?

Not thinking before posting again... I should have worded it more carefully to make it clear that I was wondering whether the diagram was mistaken or I had mistakenly interpreted it.

However, you will get a better view from a coach (even with overhead racks) than a low floor bus simply by being higher up. Surely even that much is obvious??

Yes, that much is obvious. The overhead racks just make it feel less spacious.

How much more you see from a higher vehicle depends on how high the banks/walls at the side of the road are though.

From Alun Williams' blog this morning (http://bronglais.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/funding-agreed-for-ceredigion-bus-routes.html):
"The Welsh Government has agreed to fund alternative contracts for the Ceredigion bus services due to be lost when Arriva pulls out on 21st December.

The routes involved are:
The 40 service from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen via Lampeter
The 50 service from Aberystwyth to Synod Inn
The announcement that £162,000 revenue funding will be made available to the end of June comes after several weeks of behind-the-scenes negotiations during which Ceredigion Council made a very strong case for the vital economic role the services play in Ceredigion.

The 40 and 50 services run on previously unsubsidised commercial routes and it was very difficult to see how the Council could be expected to take on their funding at a time when it is being asked to make huge savings in the next financial year due to grant money being lost from central government.

The news will be a great relief to the many people entirely dependent on these bus services to get to and from work who had been viewing the planned pull-out with trepidation. Transport Minister Edwina Hart has also pleased campaigners by saying that in future the routes will be regarded as nationally strategic.

Ceredigion Council will now proceed with the tendering arrangements for the routes.

The 585 service from Aberystwyth to Lampeter via Tregaron, which Arriva has announced it will pull out of on February 15th, is already subsidised by the council and new tenders for this will also be sought."

It looks a very good step forward

Sounds like the Ceredigion bus routes are safe for now, shame the same can't be said for Pembrokeshire's at the moment.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They look to scale to me. And yes, I do think a coach would have that little legroom because every coach I've ever been on (admittedly very few) have had that little legroom.

As we established some weeks ago, you can spec as many seats as you wish. If you put 43 seats in a vehicle that can easily accommodate 49, legroom won't be an issue.

[/QUOTE]How much more you see from a higher vehicle depends on how high the banks/walls at the side of the road are though.
[/QUOTE]

Have you really just written that? Really? Apart from a "stating the obvious", coaches will have better visibility as you're sat higher up.

I give up....a line like that sounds like a wind up. No one person can be so blinkered, or ill informed. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt but not much point in conversing with stuff like that :roll:

 

[Rhydgaled]

I give up....a line like that sounds like a wind up.

Sorry. It wasn't intended as a wind-up. I wrote what I did to try and explain our previous unhappy exchange about a double decker, it is of course obvious that being higher lets you see over more obstacles. I just don't seem able to express myself very well.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

They look to scale to me. And yes, I do think a coach would have that little legroom because every coach I've ever been on (admittedly very few) have had that little legroom.

Rhydgaled I will say this only once more.... go out and EXPERIENCE things for yourself before clogging up this thread with your uninformed nonsense..

it is SO obvious that the seat spacing of ANY vehicle is dependant on how long that vehicle is and how many seats you try to fit into it....

ALL coaches are cramped? REALLY? so if you are on a 12m coach fitted out for luxury touring with 32 seats it is just as cramped as a 12m coach fitted with 70 "3=2" seats for a school contract.

SERIOUSLY next time you see "Dinah" (UOJ 83) on the 701 why don't you get on it and ride a few stops... with only 32 seats, a fully fitted kitchen and toilet it will cure you of your damned insistance that anything other than an optare tempo is cramped... I'm sure if it was announced that trawscymru was going to convert to using rolls royce's you'd complain they just don't beat a tempo!

 

[Rhydgaled]

ALL coaches are cramped? REALLY? so if you are on a 12m coach fitted out for luxury touring with 32 seats it is just as cramped as a 12m coach fitted with 70 "3=2" seats for a school contract.

Again I don't seem to have made myself clear.

Even with a space saving (of roughly one row of seats) from not having the wheel arches you are not magically going to be able to get more legroom AND more seats on a coach compared to a bus of exactly the same length.

With a coach and a Tempo of exactly the same length, it looks like you could have 1 extra row of seats OR some extra legroom on the coach, not both.

Yes, if you have fewer seats you can have more legroom, that is obvious. But, I reckon that arround 40 seats are needed (more if you don't have standing room in reserve) so you're going to need a longer vehicle. Personally, I think WAG were mistaken to order so many X1200 Tempos and so few X1260s.

A 12.6m coach with 41 seats (same as the X50 Tempos) would almost certainly have decent legroom, but if standing isn't allowed I'm not sure they would be appropriate for X50/TC5 and 40/TC1 for other reasons.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Again I don't seem to have made myself clear.

Even with a space saving (of roughly one row of seats) from not having the wheel arches you are not magically going to be able to get more legroom AND more seats on a coach compared to a bus of exactly the same length.

Christ on a bike. Stop being a fool on this.

That isn't what is being said. It is absolutely crystal clear that having 43 seats in a B9R (13m) will be more uniformly spread and have better legroom than a 12.6m Tempo that fits 41 seats. End of story.

You can even go up to 49 seats and it would still be as good as a Tempo in terms of legroom and that provides more capacity, better views, more luggage space (e.g. carriage of bicycles etc).

That is fact. When you've gone out, travelled about, experience something other than your narrow field of West Wales, then feel free to come back with some informed debate. Until such time as you do that, then not much point in you posting on this particular subject.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It is absolutely crystal clear that having 43 seats in a [13m coach] will be more uniformly spread and have better legroom than a 12.6m Tempo that fits 41 seats.

That I can agree with.

 

[Markdvdman]

I have used the 701 coach a few times and in the main, legroom is fine! National Express coaches have good legroom too.

The worst 'long-distance' public transport used to be the initial contract for Merthyr To Swansea when Stagecoach abandoned it. They were as bad as, if not worse than pacers! Not so bad now!

There is good and bad everywhere. Like today at Cadoxton. Going towards the Island was the 4 carriage 150, and coming towards me for Merthyr was a 2 car 143! Heaven and hell lol

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Again I don't seem to have made myself clear.

Even with a space saving (of roughly one row of seats) from not having the wheel arches you are not magically going to be able to get more legroom AND more seats on a coach compared to a bus of exactly the same length.

With a coach and a Tempo of exactly the same length, it looks like you could have 1 extra row of seats OR some extra legroom on the coach, not both.

Yes, if you have fewer seats you can have more legroom, that is obvious. But, I reckon that arround 40 seats are needed (more if you don't have standing room in reserve) so you're going to need a longer vehicle. Personally, I think WAG were mistaken to order so many X1200 Tempos and so few X1260s.

A 12.6m coach with 41 seats (same as the X50 Tempos) would almost certainly have decent legroom, but if standing isn't allowed I'm not sure they would be appropriate for X50/TC5 and 40/TC1 for other reasons.

ARE YOU FOR REAL? \Where oh where has ANYONE said you can get more legroom AND more seats... what we have ALL been saying is that a coach has more comfortable seats... better views.... better suited suspension....

it seems to me that you are absolutely determined to be blissfully ignorant of all facts presented to you.

I and others have repeatedly exhorted you to go out and experience the subject before posting your ill-informed nonsense... this (very good advice) you also seem determined to ignore.

I think it is about time you stopped posting on this thread and left the rest of us to have a serious grown up debate on the subject..

I don't like being rude but I will say this to all other members who might read this post:

IF ANYONE SEES ANOTHER POST ON THIS SUBJECT FROM RHYDGALED PLEASE IGNORE HIM AND LEAVE HIM IN HIS SELF IMPOSED IGNORANCE OF THIS SUBJECT!

Seriously I really am fed up of seeing posts asking ridiculous questions that can be answered with primary school maths and geometry.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Where oh where has ANYONE said you can get more legroom AND more seats...

Maybe they didn't, but I did get the impression that some were exaggerating the difference between bus and coach in terms of seats you can fit in the same length, assuming the same legroom. It looks to me like a coach can get one row of seats extra compared to a bus of equal length with equal legroom, thanks to the coach not having wheel arches to contend with.

what we have ALL been saying is that a coach has more comfortable seats...

Quite possibly. There is certainly room for improvment on the seats found on the TrawsCambria Tempos (the TrawsCymru Tempos might be a different story, I haven't had a ride on any of them).

better views.... better suited suspension....

I agree with the both of those. I don't think I have ever even given the impression that I disagree with the second.

it seems to me that you are absolutely determined to be blissfully ignorant of all facts presented to you.

I am not ignoring the facts presented. I overlaid the seat plan of the coach somebody posted with the seat plan of a Tempo and conceeded that the coach gains an extra row of seats.

I and others have repeatedly exhorted you to go out and experience the subject before posting your ill-informed nonsense... this (very good advice) you also seem determined to ignore.

I have not ignored it. I looked to see if there was a 20 or 701 between Aberaeron and Aberystwyth at a time I could fairly easily incorporate into my regular journey. There wasn't. If an opportunity presents itself in future then maybe I'll give it a go.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I have not ignored it. I looked to see if there was a 20 or 701 between Aberaeron and Aberystwyth at a time I could fairly easily incorporate into my regular journey. There wasn't. If an opportunity presents itself in future then maybe I'll give it a go.

this proves my point about you so succinctly....you can't find a journey on 20/701 between aberaeron and aberystwyth that you can incorporate into your regular journey?

why not take the mind shattering option of using one of your days off to go on an adventure to somewhere else.... let's say swansea or if you're feeling really brave... cardiff... THEN you will have an informed opinion to air on this forum!

and that really is the final word I have to say on any post from you until such time as you take that advice.

 

[Rhydgaled]

this proves my point about you so succinctly....you can't find a journey on 20/701 between aberaeron and aberystwyth that you can incorporate into your regular journey?

why not take the mind shattering option of using one of your days off to go on an adventure to somewhere else.... let's say swansea or if you're feeling really brave... cardiff... THEN you will have an informed opinion to air on this forum!

At present I do not have any whole days off. Last day of term is 13th December, and even then I'm not sure if I'll be able to spare a day for 'adventures'.

Back when I did have days off, I have gone on 'adventures' but my 'adventures' tend to be by rail. Some photos from my trips, along with local photos, are available online.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

At present I do not have any whole days off. Last day of term is 13th December, and even then I'm not sure if I'll be able to spare a day for 'adventures'.

Back when I did have days off, I have gone on 'adventures' but my 'adventures' tend to be by rail. Some photos from my trips, along with local photos, are available online.

Not one day? Not even a Saturday? You can't manage to find half a day in your busy schedule to do this?

461 1310 Cardigan to Carmarthen 1436
701 1520 Carmarthen to Aberaeron 1637
X50 1645 Aberaeron to Cardigan 1731

I'm sure that if you want to be able to talk with any sort of credibility, then you'll find half a day or people will doubtless begin to doubt your integrity. After all, people with families and full time jobs manage to get out?

 

[Rhydgaled]

A Richards Bros driver today was saying that the Arriva depot has to stay operational (with 6 or 8 drivers) for the council-contracted Lampeter service.

I thought it odd that, being stuck the overhead of the depot, Arriva would cancel the 40 and 50 in December, rather than keep them going to maximise revenue until Feburary when they could axe the lot in one go and close the depot. The driver then said something about a tender running out for the 40/50.

I reminded him that 40 and 50 were commertial, and he seemed to suggest that the council now had powers to force a tender on a commertial route. I'm guessing I misunderstood, but can anyone explain what he could have meant?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A Richards Bros driver today was saying that the Arriva depot has to stay operational (with 6 or 8 drivers) for the council-contracted Lampeter service.

I thought it odd that, being stuck the overhead of the depot, Arriva would cancel the 40 and 50 in December, rather than keep them going to maximise revenue until Feburary when they could axe the lot in one go and close the depot. The driver then said something about a tender running out for the 40/50.

I reminded him that 40 and 50 were commertial, and he seemed to suggest that the council now had powers to force a tender on a commertial route. I'm guessing I misunderstood, but can anyone explain what he could have meant?

They may well be keeping two buses outbased in Aber until February; a similar thing happened when Arriva closed their Stokesley depot and for another 6-8 weeks, two MPDs were retained for the Stokesley to Northallerton service as it was tendered. They just kept them in the shed but no maintenance was undertaken on them (though to be fair, it was close enough to other depots).

I'm not aware of any powers to force an operator to run a commercial route other than the statutory notice period that Arriva have complied with. However, it might be that an emergency tender has been issued and that Arriva are the lucky recipient.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm not aware of any powers to force an operator to run a commercial route other than the statutory notice period that Arriva have complied with. However, it might be that an emergency tender has been issued and that Arriva are the lucky recipient.

I wasn't expecting Arriva to be forced to continue running commertially, I'm just a bit supprised that they have chosen to cancel the commertial services before they are able to shut the depot.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I wasn't expecting Arriva to be forced to continue running commertially, I'm just a bit supprised that they have chosen to cancel the commertial services before they are able to shut the depot.

You said "I reminded him that 40 and 50 were commertial, and he seemed to suggest that the council now had powers to force a tender on a commertial route.

I'm guessing I misunderstood, but can anyone explain what he could have meant?"

I was responding to your question about the drivers' suggestion

 

[Rhydgaled]

You said "I reminded him that 40 and 50 were commertial, and he seemed to suggest that the council now had powers to force a tender on a commertial route.

I'm guessing I misunderstood, but can anyone explain what he could have meant?"

I was responding to your question about the drivers' suggestion

Right, sorry. Seemed like he was suggesting that the council could prevent Arriva (or anyone else) operating a route commertially now. That can't be correct can it?

 

[swifty]

He probably means that now Arriva have given notice on the routes the council are able to tender for replacement services.

 

[Rhydgaled]

He probably means that now Arriva have given notice on the routes the council are able to tender for replacement services.

That would make sense, but doesn't explain why Arriva want to cancel the 40 and 50 before they are able to close the depot.

The only logical explanation I can think of is that I am incorrect in thinking that:

Running the depot, 585, 40 and 50 is more profitable (or less loss-making) than the running just the depot and 585​

I guess that would make sense if, as TheGrandWazoo suggests may happen, they stop maintaining the remaining vehicles after dropping the 40, 50 and 20.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That would make sense, but doesn't explain why Arriva want to cancel the 40 and 50 before they are able to close the depot.

The only logical explanation I can think of is that I am incorrect in thinking that:

Running the depot, 585, 40 and 50 is more profitable (or less loss-making) than the running just the depot and 585​

I guess that would make sense if, as TheGrandWazoo suggests may happen, they stop maintaining the remaining vehicles after dropping the 40, 50 and 20.

If you think about it....

The depot is losing money. Don't know how much but let's say £2k a week.

Close down the operation save the 585 which they are legally obliged to operate until Feb. Employ 5/6 drivers plus one fitter and have reduce the losses to £500 a week - they save £12k worth of losses.

Don't know the actual figures but if the 40/50 is losing money anyway, running them for another two months isn't a great result (esp the two quietest months of the year for travel)