TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[TheGrandWazoo]

Stagecoach must have heard. Tredegar now has two Sunday services to Cardiff, two to Abergavennny and one to Merthyr Tydfil. I suppose it might qualify as the largest town without a useful Sunday bus service?

https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s...bles/Wales/August Changes/Route X4 Web A4.pdf

I didn't know that they'd introduced that

The view before was that Shrewsbury was the largest town without Sunday buses (but it has NatEx and rail) as does Yeovil

 

[WelshBuses93]

Hey all, I might sounds stupid for asking, but does anyone seem to know which services does each vehicle do on the T3 (Monday-Saturday) as I'm told they wait in Wrexham until the next service? Thanks :?

 

[Markdvdman]

Well it transpires Cross Hands currently served by services WEST to Carmarthen etc but not EAST. This is due to roadworks.

I did mention this to National Express and they said otherwise. Obviously, a more inteeligent person has explained after October, the services EAST will recommence.

Pretty poor eh?

I am assuming the 701 service then is likely never to resurface? Pretty sad that

 

[WelshBuses93]

http://cambrian-news.co.uk/article....ot+achievable’&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2016

 

[extendedpaul]

The T2 in question is not scheduled to leave Bronglais Hospital until 18.39 so will only reach the bus station by 18.40, when the T1 to Carmarthen departs, by early running. The two are about half a mile apart so one minute journey time appears unrealistic.

I understand the connection is usually made through a combination of early arrival/delayed departure but obviously cannot be relied on. Must be a solution somewhere. Possibly the 17.35 T2 leaving Dolgellau 5 minutes earlier at 17.30 and reducing connection time there from 9 minute to 4 ?

 

[WelshBuses93]

The other problem you have with the T2 is that in the event of the T3 running late, the services has to wait in Dolgellau Eldon Square for an additional 5 minutes after the scheduled departure so this could contribute to the missed connection with the T1.

 

[Bwsbro]

The best option would be to move the Afternoon & Evening T3 times back to :20 past the hour in Dolgellau. This would not only ensure connections with other Traws services, But also stop T2 buses having to wait 15 - 20 minutes at Dolgellau

 

[WelshBuses93]

That's exactly what I was thinking also.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I am assuming the 701 service then is likely never to resurface? Pretty sad that

The TivySide newspaper has reported that the Welsh Government are looking into restoring the service

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The TivySide newspaper has reported that the Welsh Government are looking into restoring the service

Slightly disingenuous in so far as unless they're talking of directly operated services, then the possibility of a business going under (as happened here) will always be a concern.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The TivySide newspaper has reported that the Welsh Government are looking into restoring the service

This article should raise more alarm bells than joy to anyone interested in or reliant upon bus services in Wales. The situation with the 701 does not bode well for when the WA gains powers over bus services.

Firstly, to correct the report Lewis Coaches didn't "stop the service" They went out of business! The collapse of Lewis's wasn't due to any problems with the service... in fact the service was highly profitable.
So why has no other operator taken the service on? WA interference is the short answer..

There were 2 main passenger groups that used the service- students and pensioners.

Under the rules of the concessionary pass scheme operators get a percentage of the average fare over the WHOLE of their operations. Whilst the 701 was run by Bryans Coaches this wasn't a problem as the 701 was the only service they ran, the average fare working out fairly high as it was calculated on only this one long distance service with relatively high average fare.

Once Lewis's took over the average fare still wasn't a problem as they had minimal other local services.

When Lewis's collapsed a number of other operators looked at taking over the service, but despite their pleas and those of Ceredigion council for a derogation from the rules of the scheme to allow the 701 to be considered as a stand alone operation, the WA refused, therefore making the service unable to be profitable.

Now TWO MONTHS later Carwyn Jones has the cheek to make a statement that the service is important and will be re-instated within weeks (presumably under WA control and on their terms).

If the WA thinks the service is so important why did they not do whatever was neccessary to ensure that the service continued without interuption (as Ceredigion did with the 585/588)?

The truth is that the WA has always been anti 701 seeing it as an interference in their plans for the reshaping of long distance services to their dogmatic ideas!

ps for those that have used the service, but still haven't worked out how I know such detail about the issues, My name is Rob and I was the main driver on the route for 6 years!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Slightly disingenuous in so far as unless they're talking of directly operated services, then the possibility of a business going under (as happened here) will always be a concern.

the problem of a business going under causing disruption to a service isn't an issue under the current legislation... the disruption to the 701 has been caused by political machinations not any inherent flaw in the legislation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This article should raise more alarm bells than joy to anyone interested in or reliant upon bus services in Wales. The situation with the 701 does not bode well for when the WA gains powers over bus services.

Firstly, to correct the report Lewis Coaches didn't "stop the service" They went out of business!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


the problem of a business going under causing disruption to a service isn't an issue under the current legislation... the disruption to the 701 has been caused by political machinations not any inherent flaw in the legislation.

Exactly what I was driving at. The service wasn't stopped and any business can go pop for a variety of reasons.

Agree with your view on Carwyn's lines. Again disingenuous!!

 

[Smuggler]

RE: WAG, That's disgusting to read Teflon; sorry if you lost your job.

 

[WelshBuses93]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37951655
Will now be part of the TrawsCymru network and will operate as the T1C.

 

[carlberry]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37951655
Will now be part of the TrawsCymru network and will operate as the T1C.

'Following the sudden closure of Lewis coaches'
SUDDEN, it was three months ago!!!

'critical services were continued with as little disruption as possible'
Three MONTHS. Some GHA services were covered in little more than three hours!

How does the WAG get away with such crap!!


A review after six months barely gives it enough time to attract back the passengers that have found other ways of doing the journey after which it can be cut back to Carmarthen for rail connections.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37951655
Will now be part of the TrawsCymru network and will operate as the T1C.

Economy and Infrastructure Secretary Ken Skates said he was "delighted" TrawsCymru was able to take on the "important route".

"Following the sudden closure of Lewis coaches, we've acted quickly with the local authority and others to ensure that critical services were continued with as little disruption as possible," he added

FOUR months to work out a replacement? strange use of the words I've highlighted... and I suppose that seeing as the WA seems to think it always knows best and has consistently said coaches are the wrong thing for long distance services this new "experimental" service will of course use bog standard service buses....

obviously just an exercise designed to doom to failure so the WA can say told you so

 

[Rhydgaled]

I suppose that seeing as the WA seems to think it always knows best and has consistently said coaches are the wrong thing for long distance services this new "experimental" service will of course use bog standard service buses....

It will be interesting to see whether the vehicles on the T1C are coaches or buses, and if the latter whether they will be 'bog standard' or something really special. I'm not sure WAG always were keen on using buses; prior to the 2010 consultation a slide-show appeared online showing coaches. I didn't, and still don't, think that coaches are appropriate for the services of the then TrawsCambria network, or the current TrawsCymru services. A limited-stop Aberystwyth to Cardiff service is a whole different kettle of fish, I hope that the planned T1C is exactly that, and doesn't replace existing journeys on the T1. If that is the case then I hope they will use coaches.

'Following the sudden closure of Lewis coaches'
SUDDEN, it was three months ago!!!

Was there much notice that Lewis was going to go out of business? If not, then the closure was sudden. What is not sudden is the Welsh Government's response.

That said, the GHA(T3)/Lewis(701) argument is not really comparing like-with-like. Had nobody arranged a replacement operator, much of the T3 route would presumably have been without any public transport. In comparison, the loss of the 701 added a change of vehicle and and possibly some time and higher fares to journeys between Aberystwyth and Cardiff, but it didn't make journeys impossible.

So, there was less need for urgency with the 701, but I agree with the comments that the WAG is spouting rubbish about acting quickly to replace the 701. Four months is NOT quickly.

Going back to the T3, have Lloyds taken on the double-deckers yet and if not what are they currently using?

 

[WelshBuses93]

Lloyds won't be taking the Scania's. They're currently using 5 dealer stock Enviro200's and one of 2 Enviro400 MMC's off the X28. They have the emergency tender until February, but chances are they might keep the contract.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

.That said, the GHA(T3)/Lewis(701) argument is not really comparing like-with-like... the loss of the 701 added a change of vehicle and and possibly some time and higher fares to journeys between Aberystwyth and Cardiff, but it didn't make journeys impossible.

To complete the full 701 journey since it was withdrawn involves more than 1 change of service...

for fare paying passengers the journey now is:

T1 Aberystwyth- Carmarthen (2 hrs 24 mins)
X11 Carmarthen-Llanelli- Swansea (90 mins)
X10 Swansea- Cardiff/ Cardiff Bay (75 mins)

a total journey time (without waiting for connections) of 5 hrs 9 mins... a significantly poorer journey time than that of the 701 (4hr 10 mins WITHOUT THE VAGUERIES OF CONNECTIONS) I would suggest that taking into account waiting for connections the journey would now take at least 6 1/2 hrs... making a day trip impossible...

of course for concessionary pass holders the journey will be even worse when they are refused travel on the X10 (as has already happened twice)... they will then have to use the X1 Swansea- Bridgend and X2 Bridgend- Cardiff adding over TWO hrs to the already impossible journey.

Therefore I do not see how the withdrawal of the 701 is different to the T3.

The fact is that the WA never wanted the 701 to be a success and were hoping that it would just die a quiet death after the collapse of Lewis's. They have been forced to act because of the outcry over the loss of this useful service... after all if they were ever serious about it they would have issued an emergency contract for the 701 to keep it going just as Ceredigion did with 585/ 588 services.

 

[adey2011]

Lloyds won't be taking the Scania's. They're currently using 5 dealer stock Enviro200's and one of 2 Enviro400 MMC's off the X28. They have the emergency tender until February, but chances are they might keep the contract.

The Traws-Cymru web site also states that Lloyds are operating the T3 until February, and I presume they would like to retain the service after that but they will need to provide vehicles compliant with the Traws-Cymru specification.

Whether Lloyds retain the service or the Council decide go out to tender, the successful operator who does carry on the service after February must surely be knowing sooner or later if they are to order 5 new vehicles in time for them to enter service on February 1st.

Any thoughts ?

 

[Rhydgaled]

for fare paying passengers the journey now is:

T1 Aberystwyth- Carmarthen (2 hrs 24 mins)
X11 Carmarthen-Llanelli- Swansea (90 mins)
X10 Swansea- Cardiff/ Cardiff Bay (75 mins)

a total journey time (without waiting for connections) of 5 hrs 9 mins... a significantly poorer journey time than that of the 701 (4hr 10 mins WITHOUT THE VAGUERIES OF CONNECTIONS) I would suggest that taking into account waiting for connections the journey would now take at least 6 1/2 hrs... making a day trip impossible...

So the journey by bus takes about two hours longer than the 701, I must admit that is worse than I had expected; however:

To complete the full 701 journey since it was withdrawn involves more than 1 change of service...

There was a reason I said "a change of vehicle" rather than "a change of bus". I wasn't sure whether or not you could do Aberystwyth-Cardiff with 1 change of bus, but you can change onto a train at Carmarthen and thus do it with just one change. Taking the daily 701 depature at 07:40 as a starting point, using the train times for Saturday, the journey today would be:

07:40 Aberystwyth-Carmarthen arr. 09:53 (T1)
10:04 Carmarthen-Cardiff arr. 11:48 (train to Manchester)
End-to-end journey time of 4hrs 8mins, much the same as the 701 and a similar arrival time in Cardiff, so a day-trip should still be possible too. To confirm, let's look at the return journey, starting with the 16:00 off Cardiff Central (again a similar time to the daily 701):

16:00 Cardiff-Carmarthen arr. 17:50 (Gloucester to Fishguard train)
18:09 Carmarthen-Aberystwyth arr. 20:33 (T1 and T5, a 2nd change is required here because the T1 at this time terminates at Aberaeron).
Journey time 4hrs 33min, about 15mins slower than the 701 but still alot better than the X10-X11 option.

So, a day trip to Cardiff from Aberystwyth is still possible, but using the train could make the trip quite a bit more expensive in terms of fare, and having to change is certainly an inconvinence (though perhaps prefrable to over 4hrs on what I assume are still fairly standard buses used on the T1).

Therefore I do not see how the withdrawal of the 701 is different to the T3.

Because the T1 is there so there is an alternative service, the journeys can still be made by bus and train. Although this may be less attractive to passengers due to the change of vehicle and probably higher fares, it does not make the journeys impossible by public transport.

if they were ever serious about it they would have issued an emergency contract for the 701 to keep it going just as Ceredigion did with 585/ 588 services.

I agree with that, if they saw a need for the service they should have acted much faster to keep the 701 going.

Lloyds won't be taking the Scania's. They're currently using 5 dealer stock Enviro200's and one of 2 Enviro400 MMC's off the X28. They have the emergency tender until February, but chances are they might keep the contract.

Thanks for the reply. Assuming the interiors of the double-deckers had TrawsCymru embrioded on the seats etc. that is a bit of a shame as it will be a bit wasteful with whoever takes them on having to reupholster the seats etc.

 

[Bwsbro]

The Traws Cymru T3 service is currently out to tender by Gwynedd Council. With the deadline for submissions being the 12th December.

The tender online is for the current T3 timetable operated by Lloyds Coaches

TrawsCymru specification vehicles are required for this service

3x Double Deckers
2x Single Deckers

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

There was a reason I said "a change of vehicle" rather than "a change of bus". I wasn't sure whether or not you could do Aberystwyth-Cardiff with 1 change of bus, but you can change onto a train at Carmarthen and thus do it with just one change. ...So, a day trip to Cardiff from Aberystwyth is still possible, but using the train could make the trip quite a bit more expensive in terms of fare...

Therein is the problem... around 50% of the customer base for the 701 were concessionary pass holders... of those users at least 75% would never use the 20/ X40 offerings from Arriva when they ran for the simple fact that they had to pay a fare, whereas travel on the 701 was free... do you really see them paying even more for a worse journey including an enforced change at Carmarthen... as has been said many times on this and other threads on this forum... people hate changing mid journey... especially when they are forced to do so.

In any case, when discussing the withdrawal of a popular bus/ coach service I do NOT see the relevence of the argument "well you can do it on the train instead". After all, I can't ever see anyone saying that the hrly train service between Merthyr Tydfil and Cardiff should be withdrawn "because there's a bus every 10 minutes".

Of course your argument is exactly what has been the WA argument all along... sod what the passenger wants, they'll get what we say they need. If you don't believe me on how passengers feel about enforced mode changes... just look at what happened on Tyneside when the 1985 Transport Act dismantled the PTA's transport policy.

 

[Marc]

i struggle with why a journey the distance of Aber to Cardiff should be free to anybody at the point of use.

if it can be supported with a modest fare then that demonstrates proper demand andn justification for it existing. if not, it is just pensioners using it as a free day out which is just demand for the sake of it.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

i struggle with why a journey the distance of Aber to Cardiff should be free to anybody at the point of use.

if it can be supported with a modest fare then that demonstrates proper demand andn justification for it existing. if not, it is just pensioners using it as a free day out which is just demand for the sake of it.

hmmm.... that comment smells of jealousy...

pensioners in general didn't use it as a free day out... many of the passengers used it to visit relatives, for onward connections to other parts of the UK etc... if you were on a low limited income like many pensioners are then you would be glad of a free service which allows you to get out more often and to have a higher quality of life.... believe it or not but £5 each way (which was Arriva's fare) is a huge chunk out of many pensioners budget.

 

[Markdvdman]

Therein is the problem... around 50% of the customer base for the 701 were concessionary pass holders... of those users at least 75% would never use the 20/ X40 offerings from Arriva when they ran for the simple fact that they had to pay a fare, whereas travel on the 701 was free... do you really see them paying even more for a worse journey including an enforced change at Carmarthen... as has been said many times on this and other threads on this forum... people hate changing mid journey... especially when they are forced to do so.

In any case, when discussing the withdrawal of a popular bus/ coach service I do NOT see the relevence of the argument "well you can do it on the train instead". After all, I can't ever see anyone saying that the hrly train service between Merthyr Tydfil and Cardiff should be withdrawn "because there's a bus every 10 minutes".

Of course your argument is exactly what has been the WA argument all along... sod what the passenger wants, they'll get what we say they need. If you don't believe me on how passengers feel about enforced mode changes... just look at what happened on Tyneside when the 1985 Transport Act dismantled the PTA's transport policy.

I agree with everything barring the Merthyr - Cardiff rail service is every 30 mins (2 hourly Sundays).

The poster complaining of free journeys is having a laugh! Most pensioners worked hard and deserve to enjoy their retirement! I paid to use the 701 quite regularly, and NEVER begrudge a pensioner having a free journey! Long may it continue!

 

[extendedpaul]

i struggle with why a journey the distance of Aber to Cardiff should be free to anybody at the point of use.

if it can be supported with a modest fare then that demonstrates proper demand andn justification for it existing. if not, it is just pensioners using it as a free day out which is just demand for the sake of it.

In Scotland there are bus and coach routes longer than Aberystwyth to Cardiff which are free to people over 60 all day every day.

I know a couple in their late 70s on just their state pensions who regularly travel on the Citylink /Gold services from Perth as far as Aberdeen or Inverness for a day out. Would you deny them that pleasure ?

 

[Marc]

In Scotland there are bus and coach routes longer than Aberystwyth to Cardiff which are free to people over 60 all day every day.

I know a couple in their late 70s on just their state pensions who regularly travel on the Citylink /Gold services from Perth as far as Aberdeen or Inverness for a day out. Would you deny them that pleasure ?

i struggle to understand why that should be offered as a free journey. local bus travel is one thing, but journeys over 100 miles such as aber to cardiff? there is nobody who needs to travel that far to access basic amenities.

the logical conclusion of this approach would be that all NatEx / Megabus routes become free to concessionary pass holders without any need for prior booking. why should pensioners in perth be allowd to travel to inverness when those from manchester can't travel to london for free?

i have no objection in principle to free bus travel to those who are entitled, but these scenarios strike me as being abuse of the system. the funding for 100+ mile journeys would pay for more than a dozen local journeys.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In Scotland there are bus and coach routes longer than Aberystwyth to Cardiff which are free to people over 60 all day every day.

I know a couple in their late 70s on just their state pensions who regularly travel on the Citylink /Gold services from Perth as far as Aberdeen or Inverness for a day out. Would you deny them that pleasure ?

Not wishing to appear mean spirited but there's a great many things that it would be lovely to do. Remember that pensioners have

• Free prescriptions
• Free TV licenses (for over 75s)
• Free travel on local bus services
• A triple lock on their pensions that means that even if inflation is low and earnings growth is low, they are guaranteed a minimum 2.5% increase in pensions

We have massive problems in funding the current service network and especially the concessionary schemes. In fact, in some counties, there are entire communities that are falling off the public transport map and that affects all ages.

In that context, reigning in the pleasure trips would be something that I find unpalatable but perhaps the lesser of the evils.

 

[extendedpaul]

I cannot disagree with the points in the two previous posts but to bring this back on topic I wonder if the TrawsCymru network would survive if free travel concessions were withdrawn or curtailed ?

From my observations only about one in four passengers pays a fare or uses a paid ticket of any kind. Not just on long distance routes but certainly in the valleys around Caerphilly on local buses too.