Trespass incidents

[Spandau]

There seem to be frequent instances of service disruption owing to “trespassers on the railway”.

Is anyone able to decode this for me? I can understand that if a disturbed person is threatening to jump in front of trains services will have to be halted. But if someone is witnessed dashing across the tracks does that automatically result in trains being stopped? I appreciate that if a person or persons is suspected of remaining near the tracks drivers may have to be cautioned, but is there sometimes over-caution in such circumstances?

 

[brassballs]

There seem to be frequent instances of service disruption owing to “trespassers on the railway”.

Is anyone able to decode this for me? I can understand that if a disturbed person is threatening to jump in front of trains services will have to be halted. But if someone is witnessed dashing across the tracks does that automatically result in trains being stopped? I appreciate that if a person or persons is suspected of remaining near the tracks drivers may have to be cautioned, but is there sometimes over-caution in such circumstances?

Tresspass = red button for me.

Ive done it and will DO it again!!!

Dont tresspass on the railway. Its that simple!!!

 

[dk1]

Certainly not here. If I just saw somebody cutting across as much as I disagree with it I see no reason to cause unnecessary disruption. By the time police or NR arrive they’ll probably be home in front of the television. I also don’t report railway photographers like some just because they are within a boundary fence say near a foot crossing yet well clear of the running line. As long as they raise an arm as many do I’m completely ok with it.

 

[brassballs]

Certainly not here. If I just saw somebody cutting across as much as I disagree with it I see no reason to cause unnecessary disruption. By the time police or NR arrive they’ll probably be home in front of the television.

100% agree but rule book states to hit the button. And I have and will continue too.

 

[dk1]

100% agree but rule book states to hit the button. And I have and will continue too.

I use my own common sense personally.

 

[brassballs]

I use my own common sense personally.

We agree to disagree brother or sister

 

[dk1]

We agree to disagree brother or sister

Brother & I concur.

 

[4F89]

Isn't the rulebook just guidelines anyway

 

[baz962]

I'm trying to find rulebook updates. I not long had a safety update day and we were told that we no longer had to red button . I am trying to remember , but I'm sure it was dependent on how near the person is and are they a danger .

 

[Eccles1983]

The rulebook does not state that you have to hit the red button.

It states that you must inform the signaller or ops control.

If an emergancy call was initiated everytime a trespasser was seen lineside then delays would be astronomical in many areas.

Quick call to the signaller, next train gets cautioned.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Certainly not here. If I just saw somebody cutting across as much as I disagree with it I see no reason to cause unnecessary disruption. By the time police or NR arrive they’ll probably be home in front of the television. I also don’t report railway photographers like some just because they are within a boundary fence say near a foot crossing yet well clear of the running line. As long as they raise an arm as many do I’m completely ok with it.

I can see what you're saying, especially the example of someone dashing across, rather than someone who doesn't really move away or someone appearing drunk walking home having just missed the train or something. A 'dasher' is more than likely using it as a (potentially regular) shortcut and as you say will be long gone by the time response arrives - probably before you've even stopped. My worry though is that once I've gone past, their shortcut may actually be continuing down the track behind me for a distance and they might not get out of the way of the next train in time. Or if it's a third-rail area, juice themselves. Now it may not get checked but if someone were to then review my forward-facing CCTV footage, as the last train over maybe minutes earlier, and finds the person clearly visible, then that's me potentially in a tricky situation! I can honestly understand your point of view, and I guess every area is different so the risk on a slow single track branch will be different to a quadrupled mainline, but for me I'm all for covering my back 'just in case'. If nothing else, it might get a hole in a fence repaired (albeit I guess if a regular shortcut, that may appear again soon after!).

 

[martin2345uk]

Rulebook doesn't specify how the signaller should be contacted - red button, yellow button... I would say yellow button at the very least, red button depending on the situation (multi track, linespeed, etc)?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Obviously depends on the particular incident and the location. Presumably drivers use the horn which is logged in the train's data box.

"Chancing it" by running across the train track is very different to say, a photographer standing too close, or where s)he isn't supposed to be

But then it's the driver's call at the time

 

[ComUtoR]

Obviously depends on the particular incident and the location. Presumably drivers use the horn which is logged in the train's data box.

"Chancing it" by running across the train track is very different to say, a photographer standing too close, or where s)he isn't supposed to be

But then it's the driver's call at the time

The situation is taken out of our hands. The rulebook is clear and states it must be reported.

I was a report every little thing person when I first started and then I switched to a more cautious and common sense approach. Now I've moved firmly back into the don't take chances camp. We just don't know what the entire situation is. Is that one person dashing across the track gonna come back ? Is there a group of them ? Will that photographer decide to move a little closer each time ?

After a few high profile trespass incidents on my part of the network the strict rulebook approach really is the most logical. Trespass incidents should be investigated to see how they happened and help to prevent them in the future. There may have also been a criminal act that took place. My very very near miss turned out to be someone who recently killed someone.

Big Red or a the Yellow button is debatable and dependent on whats happening. Drivers decisions here need to be supported and discussion over which option is healthy and benefical to us all.

 

[Red Devil]

Yellow button for me,not stopping every train in the immediate are for one scrote taking a short cut.

 

[Skoodle]

I was once approaching a signal at danger, then noticed there were two trespassers who had climbed up the signal gantry. I used the yellow button, but before the signaller could answer, they had climbed down and started across all four DC tracks. So that was a red button for me. Every situation is different.

 

[172007]

Tbh if its a person painting the rear of their fence with preservative or, trimming their hedge or replacing a fence and it's a sensible distance from running lines / top of an embankment I use my common sense. Can't start pressing the red button for every person who adds stuff to their compost bin, pile of grass clippings...... the lost is endless.

 

[eldomtom2]

There are legal requirements regarding the safety of trespassers, though not neatly codified ones. If a train hits a trespasser in a situation where the train could have been stopped questions will be asked.

 

[Sleepy]

Seems to be an increase in idiots deciding to get to the desired platform by crossing tracks instead of using footbridge/subway - near misses with trains coming other way becoming too frequent !!

 

[185143]

I think I've twice witnessed a trespass incident while waiting for a train. On the first, two blokes decided to run across the tracks infront of our train. It was a request stop on the Cumbrian Coast which, fortunately I guess, had been requested. They boarded, for the driver to soon emerge from the cab and make his feelings clear and for the guard to appear and tell them in no uncertain terms that they weren't travelling.

The other was two kids at Littleborough. No trains were in the area and it was a good five minutes until the Manchester train was due, so there was no need for urgency. They'd also been smoking on the platform and were clearly far too young to do so. Someone mentioned it to the conductor who went up and kicked them off.

I was onboard a train recently where a few kids boarded and sat at a table behind me. The guard came through to sell them tickets and mentioned that the driver had said one of them had been sat with their legs dangling off the platform edge. He then went onto explain that this was a) idiotic and b) would at the very least result in them being refused travel if he knew which one of them it was, but as he didn't they were all allowed travel. That's a slightly different issue though, is that dealt with in the same manner as someone physically on the track or line side?

 

[Stigy]

If someone dashed across the tracks taking a shortcut and it’s obvious that was their intention, I’d not hit the red button but stop and inform the signaller as protocol dictates. I don’t see a point in stopping all trains unless there’s an immediate danger to life. If I wasn’t sure of their intentions, I’d 100% make an emergency call.

During training it was always drummed in to us that it’s very much our call, but that we’d never be criticised for pressing the red button if it subsequently emerged it wasn’t wholly necessary.

 

[LAX54]

We agree to disagree brother or sister

Maybe Urgent over REC ? The Signalman will stop and caution on a report of anyone trackside, but is normally one each way, and if they have gone, normal working, if reported as still there, caution will remain, the Driver, nor Signalman will not not know if the person is 'vulnerable' or not. MOM will attend as a matter of course to check fences etc

Isn't the rulebook just guidelines anyway

It is, not all eventualities or conditions are covered by the RB

 

[Highlandspring]

Maybe Urgent over REC ? The Signalman will stop and caution on a report of anyone trackside, but is normally one each way, and if they have gone, normal working, if reported as still there, caution will remain, the Driver, nor Signalman will not not know if the person is 'vulnerable' or not. MOM will attend as a matter of course to check fences etc

Where I am the MOM is generally only requested to carry out a fencing check for reports of young children trespassing (i.e. younger than mid-teens) or for repeat locations. A one off incident of an adult taking a short cut or whatever is usually a caution one each way - or until they’ve gone - and report to BTP job. In my experience REC calls for trespassers are reasonably rare and usually only made for people who are staggering about under the influence, who clearly have suicidal intentions or for young children. Most other trespass reports come via an ordinary or urgent call.

 

[172007]

Where I am the MOM is generally only requested to carry out a fencing check for reports of young children trespassing (i.e. younger than mid-teens) or for repeat locations. A one off incident of an adult taking a short cut or whatever is usually a caution one each way - or until they’ve gone - and report to BTP job. In my experience REC calls for trespassers are reasonably rare and usually only made for people who are staggering about under the influence, who clearly have suicidal intentions or for young children. Most other trespass reports come via an ordinary or urgent call.

What do you do when it's a property owner maintaining their boundary, I.e. clipping a hedge, painting / replacing a fence? Not talking about next to the cess but a sensible distance away; trespass nonetheless.

Are gates in people's fences, compost bins etc flagged up As many appear decades old.

Some people on here would have us making a Rec call every time a person emptied their grass clippings onto the railway through their handy little gate.

 

[norbitonflyer]

A one off incident of an adult taking a short cut or whatever is usually a caution one each way -.

Is there a time limit on that? On a quiet line the next train could be several hours away, or even the next day.

 

[lineclear]

Is there a time limit on that? On a quiet line the next train could be several hours away, or even the next day.

Any references to 'one each way' or similar are based on unofficial practice and do not reflect how trespass incidents should always be dealt with. According to the rule book, 'You must continue to tell each driver to proceed at caution until you [the signaller, not control] are sure the line is again clear or that trespassers are no longer in danger from passing trains.' This could mean that no trains are cautioned, or that trains are cautioned until staff on site confirm the line is clear after a thorough search, or anything in between, depending on the situation.

 

[Highlandspring]

What do you do when it's a property owner maintaining their boundary, I.e. clipping a hedge, painting / replacing a fence? Not talking about next to the cess but a sensible distance away; trespass nonetheless.

Are gates in people's fences, compost bins etc flagged up As many appear decades old.

Lineside neighbours cutting hedges and cleaning windows etc.. is a regularly occurring problem and these do almost always require a visit from the MOM to sort out. Often they’ll involve handymen, gardeners or builders engaged by the householder and they can sometimes be a bit shirty when instructed to leave the railway. Secret gates etc.. are followed up through the local teams and BTP but these can often be difficult to resolve as there’s frequently dispute about exact land boundaries etc and it can get acrimonious and involve lawyers.

Is there a time limit on that? On a quiet line the next train could be several hours away, or even the next day.

The caution will remain in place until the line is reported clear, whether that’s by a train tomorrow or a member of staff physically checking. Often when a trespasser is reported during overnight engineering work the engineers on site will be asked to check rather than the first train in the morning.

Any references to 'one each way' or similar are based on unofficial practice and do not reflect how trespass incidents should always be dealt with. According to the rule book, 'You must continue to tell each driver to proceed at caution until you [the signaller, not control] are sure the line is again clear or that trespassers are no longer in danger from passing trains.' This could mean that no trains are cautioned, or that trains are cautioned until staff on site confirm the line is clear after a thorough search, or anything in between, depending on the situation.

Yes indeed sorry, it’s Control shorthand for getting the next train(s) to check it out and continuing to caution until the line is reported clear. Typically with a shortcutter or golf ball retriever on a double track railway this will involve cautioning one train in each direction because they’ll be long gone by the time that happens. As you say the signaller is responsible for maintaining the caution until they have definite information that the trespasser has left the railway. Just as an aside back when I was a signaller I once had a big argument with an incident controller who tried to tell me to advise drivers to ‘keep a sharp lookout at linespeed’ but not actually caution them for a report of a trespasser. Either you instruct a driver to proceed at caution or you don’t, there’s no inbetween in the rule book.

 

[Gloster]

Not a trespasser, but I once had an argument with Control after a report that a power line was hanging down over the line. This was on a Sunday and it took a while to root out someone to check it. Just before the first train to enter the section reached my box, I got a call from Control to say that the civil police had looked at it and it was OK to run at full line speed. I dug my toes in and said that I would caution trains until somebody from the railway had checked. Control were, to put it mildly, unhappy about this (all the intermediate boxes were switched out so the section was about seventeen miles), but I cautioned the train and the driver reported at the next box. The cable was just above the top of the train, but as it was only just caught up in a tree it could have been blown down by a passing train. It was sorted out fairly quickly as the power people had already been called.

 

[nanstallon]

In days of not so old, we didn't seem to have nearly as many interruptions of service due to trespassers. But I'm sure that there were just as many trespassers. Perhaps the British have an obsession about trespass, ever since poor old Huskisson got run over and killed on opening day of the Liverpool and Manchester Rly in 1830. On the Continent, lines are often not even fenced. It may be that Mr Common Sense departed these shores a little while ago. I don't condone trespassing, but it shouldn't disrupt operations except obviously if someone is about to jump under a train.

 

[dk1]

In days of not so old, we didn't seem to have nearly as many interruptions of service due to trespassers. But I'm sure that there were just as many trespassers. Perhaps the British have an obsession about trespass, ever since poor old Huskisson got run over and killed on opening day of the Liverpool and Manchester Rly in 1830. On the Continent, lines are often not even fenced. It may be that Mr Common Sense departed these shores a little while ago. I don't condone trespassing, but it shouldn't disrupt operations except obviously if someone is about to jump under a train.

It’s also much easier for a driver to pass a message on these days with GSMR. Before it NRN was next to hopeless at times, only RETB/CSR had a good reception. Most wouldn’t specifically stop to jump down to a SPT unless it was serious.