TRIVIA: Are any services in violation of the Railway Regulation Act 1844? (specifically in speed)

[Roast Veg]

This regulation no longer applies, as more recent acts have redefined the rules for minimum service provision. Having said that...

The "Railway Regulation Act 1844" (source) defines a minimum provision of service as follows:

• One train with provision for carrying third-class passengers, should run on every line, every day, in each direction, stopping at every station.
• The fare should be 1d. per mile.
• Its average speed should not be less than 12 miles per hour (19 km/h).
• Third-class passengers should be protected from the weather and be provided with seats.

Now it's obvious to see that fares have increased somewhat, and the prevalence of skip-stop services mean that not all lines get a stopping service every day. One might argue that some stock does not protect against the weather, but the speed is an interesting point.

My question is thus: do any services not meet the requirement for reaching 12mph?

 

[matt_world2004]

I imagine the Hammersmith and city line between paddington and baker Street will struggle to reach 12 mph

 

[Gathursty]

Probably the Coryton branch or the Stourbridge Shuttle.

 

[SWT_USER]

This regulation no longer applies, as more recent acts have redefined the rules for minimum service provision. Having said that...

The "Railway Regulation Act 1844" (source) defines a minimum provision of service as follows:

• One train with provision for carrying third-class passengers, should run on every line, every day, in each direction, stopping at every station.
• The fare should be 1d. per mile.
• Its average speed should not be less than 12 miles per hour (19 km/h).
• Third-class passengers should be protected from the weather and be provided with seats.

Now it's obvious to see that fares have increased somewhat, and the prevalence of skip-stop services mean that not all lines get a stopping service every day. One might argue that some stock does not protect against the weather, but the speed is an interesting point.

My question is thus: do any services not meet the requirement for reaching 12mph?

First thing that came to mind when seeing this and without having checked was possibly the Greenford branch?

 

[yorkie]

This regulation no longer applies, as more recent acts have redefined the rules for minimum service provision. Having said that...

The "Railway Regulation Act 1844" (source) defines a minimum provision of service as follows:

• One train with provision for carrying third-class passengers, should run on every line, every day, in each direction, stopping at every station.
• The fare should be 1d. per mile.
• Its average speed should not be less than 12 miles per hour (19 km/h).
• Third-class passengers should be protected from the weather and be provided with seats.

Now it's obvious to see that fares have increased somewhat, and the prevalence of skip-stop services mean that not all lines get a stopping service every day. One might argue that some stock does not protect against the weather, but the speed is an interesting point.

My question is thus: do any services not meet the requirement for reaching 12mph?

Whitchurch to Coryton is half a mile and timetabled to take 5 minutes (ie. 6mph), if that counts.

That said, 4 minutes of that is really "recovery time" as it only takes 1 minute in the other direction!

There will be many similar examples.

Another way to measure the Coryton branch could be to measure the distance from Radyr to Coryton (1.3 miles direct, which is possible on foot) and measure that against the journey time of 40 minutes for an even slower speed of around 2mph, though that may be considered 'cheating' as the purpose of the train is really a Radyr to Cardiff and Cardiff to Coryton service that happens to join up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though it's on the other parts, not the speed:

Any of the non-daily Parlies like the Dentonian.

As it says every day, any line with no Sunday service. As people used to be more, not less, religious, I'm surprised the Regulation doesn't except Sundays!

 

[si404]

on every line, every day, in each direction, stopping at every station

This will be the killer.

Even without stuff like weekly service, there lots of places with skip-stop service that would need an all-stops one which they might not run.

I don't believe there's a train that stops at both Warrington West and Sankey.

There's also questions of what is a line and what are the stations at it. Do things like Carnforth's WCML platforms need to be closed to allow them not to be served on that line? Does there need to be a Chathill - Berwick service as they are adjacent stations on the same line?

 

[London Trains]

This regulation no longer applies, as more recent acts have redefined the rules for minimum service provision. Having said that...

The "Railway Regulation Act 1844" (source) defines a minimum provision of service as follows:

• One train with provision for carrying third-class passengers, should run on every line, every day, in each direction, stopping at every station.
• The fare should be 1d. per mile.
• Its average speed should not be less than 12 miles per hour (19 km/h).
• Third-class passengers should be protected from the weather and be provided with seats.

Now it's obvious to see that fares have increased somewhat, and the prevalence of skip-stop services mean that not all lines get a stopping service every day. One might argue that some stock does not protect against the weather, but the speed is an interesting point.

My question is thus: do any services not meet the requirement for reaching 12mph?

You could say all services don't comply, since third class does not exist anymore!

 

[Mojo]

You could say all services don't comply, since third class does not exist anymore!

AIUI, when railway services moved to two classes it was actually second class that was abolished, and third class becoming second (later standard class).

 

[Bletchleyite]

AIUI, when railway services moved to two classes it was actually second class that was abolished, and third class becoming second (later standard class).

Indeed - Standard is "son of 3rd".

 

[Roast Veg]

I imagine the Hammersmith and city line between paddington and baker Street will struggle to reach 12 mph

Though the Underground obviously did not exist at the time, I think it might be exempt from this challenge!

Whitchurch to Coryton is half a mile and timetabled to take 5 minutes (ie. 6mph), if that counts.

That said, 4 minutes of that is really "recovery time" as it only takes 1 minute in the other direction!

There will be many similar examples.

Another way to measure the Coryton branch could be to measure the distance from Radyr to Coryton (1.3 miles direct, which is possible on foot) and measure that against the journey time of 40 minutes for an even slower speed of around 2mph, though that may be considered 'cheating' as the purpose of the train is really a Radyr to Cardiff and Cardiff to Coryton service that happens to join up.

I have a strong suspicion that the "mph" of the service refers to the train's physical speed along the line as a maxima, rather than averaged.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

There were a couple of horse-drawn services - the Fintona tram in Ireland - and another in the Carlisle area that would have been very unlikely to have managed an average of 12mph; I think they may have had some sort of grandfather rights or maybe the Act didn't cover such oddities.

 

[3141]

AIUI, when railway services moved to two classes it was actually second class that was abolished, and third class becoming second (later standard class).

There was a long period after second class was abolished when the two remaining classes were first and third. From memory it was 1956 when third class was renamed standard class. I wonder if it was to meet the requirement of the 1844 Act that third was retained for so long after second was abolished.

 

[HLE]

Ah that's why the Pacers lasted so long! Third class provision!

 

[jopsuk]

Second class started to be abolished in 1875 by the Midland Railway, was more or less wiped out at most companies before World War 1, but limped on, finally on just Southern Railway boat trains until 1948 (or 1956, according to other sources?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah that's why the Pacers lasted so long! Third class provision!

If we followed Indian Railways' approach, we'd probably consider 2+1 to be 1st, 2+2 2nd and 3+2 3rd. They have a large number of quite well-defined classes of travel, but each train tends only to have 3 or 4 of them at most.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

There was a long period after second class was abolished when the two remaining classes were first and third. From memory it was 1956 when third class was renamed standard class. I wonder if it was to meet the requirement of the 1844 Act that third was retained for so long after second was abolished.

Three classes of accommodation were retained on SR boat-trains to Dover and Folkestone, to allow through fares to continental destinations to be offered. European railways finally abandoned three classes in 1956, allowing BR to reclassify third as second. There was even a special build of MK1s for these boat-trains.

My offering for a low-speed railway is the Gunnislake branch - Calstock to Gunnislake average speed is a stately 11 mph, due to the sharp curvature, steep gradient and two open level-crossings. I believe this is the last remaining line on the national network built under the Light Railway Act?

 

[kieron]

Whitchurch to Coryton is half a mile and timetabled to take 5 minutes (ie. 6mph), if that counts.

The Act talks in terms of trunk, branch and junction lines. I don't think the track between Whitchurch and Coryton was considered to be any of those, so the speed of trains over that section would not be taken into account. You could take the line to be Heath-Coryton, though. Going by the passenger timetable, the fastest northbound trains for this section average 12.5mph.

I don't think any of the other branches people have mentioned in the thread are any slower.

As it says every day, any line with no Sunday service. As people used to be more, not less, religious, I'm surprised the Regulation doesn't except Sundays!

The Act itself says "every Week Day, except Christmas Day and Good Friday (such Exception not to extend to Scotland)", so Sunday services aren't the issue. The Act does say that any railway which runs on Sundays has to provide a parliamentary train then, but this can skip stations which don't open on Sundays.

There were a couple of horse-drawn services - the Fintona tram in Ireland - and another in the Carlisle area that would have been very unlikely to have managed an average of 12mph; I think they may have had some sort of grandfather rights or maybe the Act didn't cover such oddities.

I can't see any mention in the Act of the type of traction used, so I assume they would be covered. That said, the Act only actually starts to cover a railway if the company was incorporated in the same parliamentary session as the 1844 Act or later, or if the company obtained an extension or amendment of its powers then. Even then, the Act gives the Board of Trade the right to relax any of the requirements for a parliamentary train except for the price per mile.

There's a timetable for the Ffestiniog Railway from before steam here. If the distance to the quarry was 12 miles, this gives an average speed of just over 2mph going uphill, and just under 8mph going down. The original passenger carriage was described as being for "tourists", so they may not have been too concerned about practical issues such as speed.

 

[Taunton]

• Third-class passengers should be protected from the weather and be provided with seats.

This is surely the one that has gone by the board. I can't see it being repealed. And yet modern stock actually makes a virtue of standing capacity over seats.

 

[Bedpan]

There was a long period after second class was abolished when the two remaining classes were first and third. From memory it was 1956 when third class was renamed standard class. I wonder if it was to meet the requirement of the 1844 Act that third was retained for so long after second was abolished.

I (just) remember the two classes being first and third, probably because my Dad and others would still have referred to it as third fir some time after it had been renamed, a bit like people refer to "British Rail" even today. But I think that third class was renamed second class, and it was some years before second class was renamed standard class. can anybody remember when this would have been?

 

[Dave W]

Probably the Coryton branch or the Stourbridge Shuttle.

Stour Town branch is booked 3 minutes for the 62 chain journey (per RTT) - I make that 15.5mph. The afflictions mentioned by Sir Felix Pole that the Gunnislake branch suffers are absent and, whilst a steep gradient, it's hardly Everest.

A flywheel-assisted 139 is more than capable of fighting its way up there (I'd actually be interested to know if it's got redundancy to get up the bank without the flywheel system enabled, alas that is off topic...)

 

[hexagon789]

I (just) remember the two classes being first and third, probably because my Dad and others would still have referred to it as third fir some time after it had been renamed, a bit like people refer to "British Rail" even today. But I think that third class was renamed second class, and it was some years before second class was renamed standard class. can anybody remember when this would have been?

Second Class was rebranded as Standard from the 11th May 1987, presumably concurrent with the timetable change.

 

[norbitonflyer]

But I think that third class was renamed second class [in 1956], and it was some years before second class was renamed standard class. can anybody remember when this would have been?

1987, I believe. My grandmother, who died that year aged 90, still called it Third Class.

The spending power of 1d in 1844 is approximately 43p now. Quite a lot of modern fares cost more than that per mile, especially over short distances.

 

[hexagon789]

The spending power of 1d in 1844 is approximately 43p now. Quite a lot of modern fares cost more than that per mile, especially over short distances.

Does that account for the fact that a pre-decimal penny is half a decimalised one? (1d = 0.5p)

 

[Roast Veg]

I make it more like 53p (£1 in 1844 = £128.01 in 2019, divide by 240).

 

[norbitonflyer]

Does that account for the fact that a pre-decimal penny is half a decimalised one? (1d = 0.5p)

Actually near 0.42p (1p=2.4d)

Different inflation calculators give different results - the one I used gave a multiplier of about 103 (hence 8/6d, or 43p) others seem to be in the range 125 - 130

 

[PG]

• Third-class passengers should be protected from the weather and be provided with seats.

This is surely the one that has gone by the board. I can't see it being repealed. And yet modern stock actually makes a virtue of standing capacity over seats.

Ah but does it specify that all passengers be provided with seats?

 

[hexagon789]

Actually near 0.42p (1p=2.4d)

Different inflation calculators give different results - the one I used gave a multiplier of about 103 (hence 8/6d, or 43p) others seem to be in the range 125 - 130

Yes, but you can't pay in fractions like that, so it was rounded to a decimalised halfpenny.

 

[3141]

I (just) remember the two classes being first and third, probably because my Dad and others would still have referred to it as third fir some time after it had been renamed, a bit like people refer to "British Rail" even today. But I think that third class was renamed second class, and it was some years before second class was renamed standard class. can anybody remember when this would have been?

I think you're right, and I'd mis-remembered that there was two steps from third class to standard class. Thanks for the correction.

 

[si404]

Different inflation calculators give different results - the one I used gave a multiplier of about 103 (hence 8/6d, or 43p)

Surely a multiplier of 103 would give 8s 7d?

The 43p is right though - 8*5 = 40, 7/12 * 5 = 35/12 = 2.92 (2 decimal places) and thus 103d is 42.92p which rounds to 43p.