TRIVIA: Conductor-operated OPO-type buses

[AY1975]

In the 1970s and '80s, London Transport occasionally used buses designed for one-person operation (Fleetlines, Metrobuses, Titans, Olympians etc) on conductor-operated routes. This often used to happen on routes that were about to be converted to OPO shortly before the official changeover date, presumably to familiarise drivers with them who had only previously driven half-cab buses (Routemasters, RTs, etc).

In those days, London Metrobuses, Titans and Olympians had hinged signs beneath the front windscreen and on the driver's access gate opposite the front door that could be adjusted to say either "pay driver" or "pay conductor".

I also seem to recall that when Ken Livingstone first became Mayor of London in 2000, he planned to reintroduce conductors on some routes, even on OPO-type buses, but the idea was soon dropped as being impracticable.

Does anyone know of any other operators that have ever run OPO-type buses with conductors? A few current examples have been mentioned in my thread on things you used to see travelling by bus that you don't see today.

I know that Southern Vectis on the Isle of Wight still had conductors in the 1980s, and maybe even in the '90s.

At Weston Park Museum in Sheffield at the moment there's an exhibition of black & white photos of Sheffield in the 1980s. One of the photos shows a conductor on what looks like a Metrobus or Olympian in about 1983. I had no idea that Sheffield still had any crew-operated routes as late as that.

Some people think crew-operated OPO-type buses don't really work. What do you think?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also seem to recall that when Ken Livingstone first became Mayor of London in 2000, he planned to reintroduce conductors on some routes, even on OPO-type buses, but the idea was soon dropped as being impracticable.

It was implemented on at least one Stagecoach route that went down Oxford St - the 30 was it? It didn't work because people stopped at the driver to pay.

Realistically, Oyster rendered conductors redundant by taking revenue duties off the driver a different way.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In the 1970s and '80s, London Transport occasionally used buses designed for one-person operation (Fleetlines, Metrobuses, Titans, Olympians etc) on conductor-operated routes. This often used to happen on routes that were about to be converted to OPO shortly before the official changeover date, presumably to familiarise drivers with them who had only previously driven half-cab buses (Routemasters, RTs, etc).

In those days, London Metrobuses, Titans and Olympians had hinged signs beneath the front windscreen and on the driver's access gate opposite the front door that could be adjusted to say either "pay driver" or "pay conductor".

I also seem to recall that when Ken Livingstone first became Mayor of London in 2000, he planned to reintroduce conductors on some routes, even on OPO-type buses, but the idea was soon dropped as being impracticable.

Does anyone know of any other operators that have ever run OPO-type buses with conductors? A few current examples have been mentioned in my thread on things you used to see travelling by bus that you don't see today.

I know that Southern Vectis on the Isle of Wight still had conductors in the 1980s, and maybe even in the '90s.

At Weston Park Museum in Sheffield at the moment there's an exhibition of black & white photos of Sheffield in the 1980s. One of the photos shows a conductor on what looks like a Metrobus or Olympian in about 1983. I had no idea that Sheffield still had any crew-operated routes as late as that.

Some people think crew-operated OPO-type buses don't really work. What do you think?

Don’t they still have conductors on the Arbroath to Dundee routes?

I know that United Auto had conductors after their Lodekkas had gone. My local depot had them on REs until 1980 and they were still on the 263 Redcar to Middlesbrough route until deregulation in 1986 as the union at Redcar wouldn’t have OPO deckers!

 

[GusB]

McGills (Barrhead) were crew operated with mainly Leyland Nationals, and I believe A1 used conductors on certain routes.

 

[AY1975]

I would guess that some operators may have also trained their drivers as conductors so that a service could operate with a conductor if it was deemed to be beneficial: football or music festival specials, for example. At an event that attracts huge crowds, they could board the bus much more quickly either by having everyone get straight on, with the conductor then collecting the fares, or with the passengers forming two queues side by side with the driver dealing with the fares for one queue and the conductor with the other.

And of course, when they abolished conductors on a regular basis, any conductors who retrained as drivers could presumably still be used as conductors whenever such a service operated.

 

[Stan Drews]

Don’t they still have conductors on the Arbroath to Dundee routes?

Yes, the ‘Tayway’ service 73 between Ninewells Hospital and Arbroath via Dundee, Broughty Ferry and Monifieth is still crew operated during the day. It has been using standard OPO type DD buses for decades, through Olympians, Volvo B7TLS and now hybrid B5/E400MMCs
https://www.stagecoachbus.com/promos-and-offers/east-scotland/route-73-tayway

 

[Statto]

Liverpool corpy had crews on OPOs as did Wallasey, they were first generation Atlanteans.

 

[alangla]

McGills (Barrhead) were crew operated with mainly Leyland Nationals, and I believe A1 used conductors on certain routes.

The current McGills used to advertise “conductor on board” on the destination screens of their Citaro artics in the peaks on the 38, not sure if they still do though

 

[carlberry]

In the 1970s and '80s, London Transport occasionally used buses designed for one-person operation (Fleetlines, Metrobuses, Titans, Olympians etc) on conductor-operated routes. This often used to happen on routes that were about to be converted to OPO shortly before the official changeover date, presumably to familiarise drivers with them who had only previously driven half-cab buses (Routemasters, RTs, etc).

Large numbers of the Fleetlines were designed to only be crew operated (the DM class) as they were going onto central London routes.

 

[dazzler]

When First York were operating the number 4 route with FTR buses with conductors (after the original on-board ticket machines had been seen to be unusable), the Sunday, and some evening, services were operated by standard single deckers - still with conductors selling tickets. This was roughly 2007 to 2014(ish!).

 

[AndyW33]

In the 70s the use of OPO equipped vehicles with conductors was pretty widespread. Often it would be because some of the buses to convert a route to OPO had arrived at the depot, but not yet enough of them to change everything over, so the conductors remained. Then there would also be drivers who were still to go through OPO training in readiness for a route conversion and so could only work with a conductor. Apart from hard-core enthusiasts, two-person crews would use OPO equipped vehicles otherwise standing idle if they could. Most crews preferred an evening on a VR to an evening on a Lodekka for example.
And of course there were the ad-hoc arrangements made by duty inspectors to cover bus breakdowns, ticket machine failures, and shortage of OPO trained drivers.

 

[higthomas]

I would guess that some operators may have also trained their drivers as conductors so that a service could operate with a conductor if it was deemed to be beneficial: football or music festival specials, for example. At an event that attracts huge crowds, they could board the bus much more quickly either by having everyone get straight on, with the conductor then collecting the fares, or with the passengers forming two queues side by side with the driver dealing with the fares for one queue and the conductor with the other.

And of course, when they abolished conductors on a regular basis, any conductors who retrained as drivers could presumably still be used as conductors whenever such a service operated.

Why on earth does it have conductors in 2019? Stagecoach aren't ones to do things for sentimental reasons.

 

[Mwanesh]

Why on earth does it have conductors in 2019? Stagecoach aren't ones to do things for sentimental reasons.

Its busy at all times.Its a business case for it.I used it once when i visited.

 

[sannox]

The current McGills used to advertise “conductor on board” on the destination screens of their Citaro artics in the peaks on the 38, not sure if they still do though

Stopped now. Was good, reduced dwell times a lot but cost probably didn't add up.

 

[philthetube]

Burnley and Pendle did on the 50/51 for a long time using Bristol VR'S When that route went opo they agreed no redundancys with the unions and the crews who would/could not go opo went onto the rosta and operated all routes/duties'

If a crew driver went off sick it was not uncommon for a conductor to be working with a opo driver.

 

[Sprinter153]

Chaloners of Wrexham who operated the 23 route to Summerhill prior to being taken over by GHA Coaches used a conductor on a Mercedes minibus as seen here (courtesy of Ron on Flickr). The conductor was actually the wife of the driver, with Chaloners being a one bus family business.

 

[GusB]

When I think about it, I recall there being conductors on the Eastern Scottish service that went from Coatbridge into Glasgow (216? - probably originated in Airdrie, but not 100%'sure). At that point it was Fleetlines, but I'd imagine that it would have been Lodekkas not long before.

 

[Busaholic]

In the 1970s and '80s, London Transport occasionally used buses designed for one-person operation (Fleetlines, Metrobuses, Titans, Olympians etc) on conductor-operated routes. This often used to happen on routes that were about to be converted to OPO shortly before the official changeover date, presumably to familiarise drivers with them who had only previously driven half-cab buses (Routemasters, RTs, etc).

In those days, London Metrobuses, Titans and Olympians had hinged signs beneath the front windscreen and on the driver's access gate opposite the front door that could be adjusted to say either "pay driver" or "pay conductor".

I also seem to recall that when Ken Livingstone first became Mayor of London in 2000, he planned to reintroduce conductors on some routes, even on OPO-type buses, but the idea was soon dropped as being impracticable.



Some people think crew-operated OPO-type buses don't really work. What do you think?

The London situation was very complicated, and it would take hours to explain it in complete detail even for someone with all the numerous facts and dates to hand, which I certainly don't!

Crew operated, doored buses in Central London preceded the legalisation that allowed opo of double deckers. London Transport purchased 50 Leyland Atlanteanfor trial operation (with 8 Daimler Fleetlines for their Country Area.) Some entered service on the 76 route from Tottenham garage in 1975, later joined by the unique rear-engined Routemaster FRM1, with crew operation. Later, others went on to the 24 from Chalk Farm, where they were compared with Routemaster RML operation, which continued (fuel consumption was 15 % more on the Atlantean, by the way!). A couple of years or so later some of the country Fleetlines were transferred to Highgate to work the 271 alongside some Atlanteans. I'll leave that side of the story there, but ALL were crew operated.

A few years later LT announced that a version of the Fleetline was going to be the new standard double decker, the DMS class, dubbed 'The Londoner' (the name didn't stick): they were to continue the policy of one-manning routes where it was deemed feasible, but now with double deckers. They started in January 1971 with two routes. The buses weren't the unalloyed palliative hoped for, but they kept on coming, so, as LT weren't yet ready in the main to convert genuinely central London routes to opo, they entered service as crew vehicles on routes like the 16 and 149 replacing Routemasters. Some of the Routemasters in turn re-converted DMS opo routes to crew Routemaster, but that's another story!

A bit later, LT ordered 164 Scania Metropolitans and they all entered service at S.E.London garages Peckham and New Cross on the very busy and intensive routes 36 group and 53. They were probably the fastest buses ever in London service, frighteningly so in the hands of the wrong driver. Again, they replaced Routemasters, but no-one tried to pay the driver on these!

I'll leave the history bit and come back to the practicality of running such buses as crew ones: my perception is that it wasn't ideal for either passengers or crew - I certainly witnessed a punch-up between driver and conductor on a 24 once, and that route in particular seemed unsuited to their operation. On the Routemaster and its predecessors the conductor had his/her own space, but no such consideration on the doored buses.

 

[Springs Branch]

Large numbers of the Fleetlines were designed to only be crew operated (the DM class) as they were going onto central London routes.

Was London Transport unique in maintaining separate versions of rear-engine double-deckers for either OPO or crew operation?

As far as I’m aware, every other operator who had acquired the early rear-engined buses (i.e. Atlanteans & Fleetlines) before these were approved for double-deck OPO operation pretty quickly modified them with driver ticket machine mountings, cash handling facilities etc. so that every vehicle was capable of OPO operation, even if the bus might be regularly sent on the road with a conductor.

Were there any other crew-only versions of Atlanteans or Fleetlines outside London?

 

[neilmc]

Working as a conductor in Leeds on the Middleton-Moortown group of routes in 1974/75, we had rear-platform buses for the most part at first, but Fleetlines and Atlanteans became more and more common. All the rear-platform buses had gone by the end of 1976 but crew operation remained until 1986, so that was ten years of OPO-style buses exclusively on crew routes in Leeds. All the Fleetlines and Atlanteans were OPO enabled but the oldest ones, Fleetlines 101-110 and Atlanteans 331-340 soon reverted to exclusive crew use. The problem I had as a conductor was with the newer dual-door buses - in training school we were told that it was the conductor's responsibility to "ring away" from the central door as passengers exited, but drivers told me very firmly to stick to collecting fares and they would manage the doors, as of course they did when working OPO. This was all very well but any conductor working one of these buses could well be blamed for a passenger accident at the middle doors.

I think every operator in West Yorkshire would use "OPO-type buses" on crew use as the bus replacement programs ran faster than route conversion to OPO.

 

[Ken H]

Working as a conductor in Leeds on the Middleton-Moortown group of routes in 1974/75, we had rear-platform buses for the most part at first, but Fleetlines and Atlanteans became more and more common. All the rear-platform buses had gone by the end of 1976 but crew operation remained until 1986, so that was ten years of OPO-style buses exclusively on crew routes in Leeds. All the Fleetlines and Atlanteans were OPO enabled but the oldest ones, Fleetlines 101-110 and Atlanteans 331-340 soon reverted to exclusive crew use. The problem I had as a conductor was with the newer dual-door buses - in training school we were told that it was the conductor's responsibility to "ring away" from the central door as passengers exited, but drivers told me very firmly to stick to collecting fares and they would manage the doors, as of course they did when working OPO. This was all very well but any conductor working one of these buses could well be blamed for a passenger accident at the middle doors.

I think every operator in West Yorkshire would use "OPO-type buses" on crew use as the bus replacement programs ran faster than route conversion to OPO.

i remember in Leeds they thought OPO meant separate entry and exit doors. Do they got 2 door double deckers for that.
They had front engined buses they later converted to OPO. But I think the 2/3/20/21 route was late converting as it was so busy.

Wonder if we met? frequently used the 2/3/20 from the King Lane stop in the 60's/70's. Remember passing the burning Leeds market in 1975 on top of a bus. think it was diverted Eastgate, St Peters St, New York St.

 

[SCH117X]

Nottingham City Transport retained conductors in its Clifton Estate via Trent Bridge services despite using OPO vehicles as it was run jointly with South Notts. The use of conductors was reduced in the early 1980s when the 61A, which by then was solely operated by NCT was withdrawn, and replaced by a peak period only 61. IIRC subsequently the use of conductors was abandoned by NCT when their workings of the 68 had a slight route change and became a 69. All of these services are long gone with the only direct service today via Trent Bridge being the "South Notts" branded NCT 1 route along the main road past the Estate, and the only direct service onto the Estate being the 48 via Clifton Bridge.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

OK Motor Services retained conductors on their Bishop Auckland to Newcastle service until purchased by Go Ahead in 1995.

 

[Ken H]

Nottingham City Transport retained conductors in its Clifton Estate via Trent Bridge services despite using OPO vehicles as it was run jointly with South Notts. The use of conductors was reduced in the early 1980s when the 61A, which by then was solely operated by NCT was withdrawn, and replaced by a peak period only 61. IIRC subsequently the use of conductors was abandoned by NCT when their workings of the 68 had a slight route change and became a 69. All of these services are long gone with the only direct service today via Trent Bridge being the "South Notts" branded NCT 1 route along the main road past the Estate, and the only direct service onto the Estate being the 48 via Clifton Bridge.

Whats with South notts? It seems to have 1 route. Why not just make it NCT? or is it because it goes out of county (to luffbruff)

 

[Springs Branch]

In the Wigan area, Greater Manchester Transport had managed to retire all its half-cab vehicles by the early 1980s and had mostly converted to OPO. But there were a handful of local Wigan routes which retained conductors on OPO buses, not because these were particularly busy, rather on account of the bus needing to make a reversing manoeuvre at the outer terminus.

The reversal (usually around a street corner on a housing estate) was supervised by the conductor, who was issued with a whistle to signal the driver when safe to start. This observation was meant to be made with the conductor standing on the pavement watching the back of the bus, but on rainy days it was often achieved through the lower deck rear window.

My grandparents lived close to such a terminus and I remember visits in school summer holidays being punctuated by a shrill whistle every fifteen or twenty minutes.

Some examples of routes where conductors lingered were the 624 to Bottling Wood, 629 to Abbey Lakes, and not forgetting the good old 608 to the Bleachworks. Also I think ex-Lancashire United service 38 from Manchester along the A6 to Westhoughton and Hindley stayed crew operated longer than might be expected because buses terminating at Hindley did a quick fill-in trip out and back to Leyland Park Estate during their layover which required one of those awkward reversals.

Eventually the council got around to installing mini-roundabouts or turning circles, and after deregulation in 1986 many short local routes originally inherited from Wigan Corporation were linked into longer routes or went over to minibuses, so the need for buses to reverse around corners was eliminated along with the last conductors.

In central Manchester, Selnec and GMT’s All Night buses were all worked by two-person crews, often using newish OPO vehicles – firstly GMT Standards, later Metrobuses and sometimes Leyland Titans. 100% conductor operation on Night Services continued long after all regular daytime routes in Manchester had gone to OPO, presumably due to union pressure.

 

[Deerfold]

Whats with South notts? It seems to have 1 route. Why not just make it NCT? or is it because it goes out of county (to luffbruff)

Historically South Notts didn't operate much else except Nottingham - Loughborough (though frequencies have been higher than today) until the Clifton Estate was built. NCT have severely reduced the variety of services to Clifton since the tram started (and then increased its frequency).

In the mid 90s South Notts were just running the 1, 48 (to Clifton) and a handful of trips on the 2 and 2A from Nottingham to Gotham and villages in that area but off the 1 route.

In 2014 NCT did drop the name, but brought it back in 2015, just for the 1.

 

[Deerfold]

Halifax Joint Committee started running services in the Halifax area (running as far as Todmorden, Bradford and Leeds) in 1995, initially with vintage buses - the first route used 1 bus every 90 minutes between Halifax and Hebden Bridge on a Sunday. However, as it expanded, they increasingly ran ex-London OPO buses. For a while they continued to run with conductors - these were very popular with passengers, and was a point in their favour when they entered bus wars with First, with First backing down on a surprising number of routes. However presumably the finances didn't work well and conductors disappeared. Most of the routes passed to Centrebus (now Yorkshire Tiger) in 2010 with the few they kept being withdrawn.

 

[randyrippley]

Lancaster City Transport purchased a batch of ex-Salford Atlanteans in the late 1970's, which were run interchangeably with their existing fleet. As a result they were used with conductors for a few years until the rear-entrance buses were eliminated in the early 1980's

 

[Eyersey468]

EYMS used conductors on some routes in the early to mid 90s, I remember them sometimes being on Beverley bus station around that time. Also Southern Vectis used conductors on Newport bus station sometimes into the mid 2000s

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

EYMS used conductors on some routes in the early to mid 90s, I remember them sometimes being on Beverley bus station around that time. Also Southern Vectis used conductors on Newport bus station sometimes into the mid 2000s

EY did have Routemasters on the 56/56A but can’t remember anything else