Trivia: Elongated/Indirect Services

[Iskra]

Pre-May 2018 (Might have been before then) there was the Scunthorpe to Lincoln via Sheffield (Return journey went to Adwick). Made even worse by the fact that they called at both Retford and Doncaster - 20 minutes on the ECML, well over an hour via Sheffield.

Leeds to Lincoln via Barnsley and Sheffield nowadays is also a good contender, however, that and the prior service only exist to give Lincoln, Gainsborough, Retford, Worksop etc a direct service to Meadowhall.

Should have probably picked up on these ones myself!

Back in Virgin XC days, several services used to do Brum-Preston via Stoke and Piccadilly, another time consuming diversion.

I probably wouldn't have minded if it was in the days of proper trains...

 

[Whistler40145]

There are also a couple of Sunday early morning NE to SW services that go via both Leeds and Doncaster as the Newcastle to Reading services start a bit later in the day.

Do any XC services omit Leeds and go direct from Sheffield via Moorthorpe?

 

[Iskra]

I sometimes wonder why the Norwich services reverse at Sheffield and don’t go via Beighton Junction, obviously paths and route knowledge could be a problem

It's an interesting idea and has some merit, but I'm not sure it would be any faster. Although could be simpler operationally? But, then there would be more line to learn...

 

[duffield]

I sometimes wonder why the Norwich services reverse at Sheffield and don’t go via Beighton Junction, obviously paths and route knowledge could be a problem

It's about 4 miles further and takes in an additional major junction so depending on the relevant line speeds that would probably at least cancel out any advantage from not reversing.

I'm guessing route knowledge might be an issue - although there are regular London to Sheffield services (passenger and ECS) via Beighton, there don't appear to be any regular Liverpool - Norwich services using this route.

 

[NoMorePacers]

To add to Virgin XC, there was a service from Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh (departed New Street at 15:05) that went up to Glasgow Central, reversed and doubled back through Carstairs to get to Edinburgh. The 06:50 from Edinburgh to Birmingham did the same in reverse.

The 05:56 Manchester Airport - Edinburgh went via both Bolton and Wigan North Western.

 

[Dai Corner]

1P00 0520 Bristol Temple Meads - Cardiff Central via Bristol Parkway (rev).

In the normal timetable there's also a [somewhere]-Cheltenham-Bristol Parkway-Bristol Temple Meads-Cardiff Central I think.

 

[PHILIPE]

1P00 0520 Bristol Temple Meads - Cardiff Central via Bristol Parkway (rev).

In the normal timetable there's also a [somewhere]-Cheltenham-Bristol Parkway-Bristol Temple Meads-Cardiff Central I think.

The reverse of the 0700 Cardiff to Manchester

 

[LowLevel]

It's about 4 miles further and takes in an additional major junction so depending on the relevant line speeds that would probably at least cancel out any advantage from not reversing.

I'm guessing route knowledge might be an issue - although there are regular London to Sheffield services (passenger and ECS) via Beighton, there don't appear to be any regular Liverpool - Norwich services using this route.

1R50 0520 Nottingham to Liverpool and 1L20 2137 Liverpool to Nottingham are booked via Beighton most days of the week. It isn't a particularly unusual diversion. Route knowledge at EMR can be a bit curious on the Regional side - guards tend to sign most or all diversions whereas knowledge is more patchy amongst the drivers, primarily because of the longer time required for route learning. Thus it isn't uncommon when it comes to the pinch to find the guard signs the diversion but the driver doesn't. There has been a bit of a push to correct that recently.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Dinting to Hadfield normally deviates via Glossop (reverse)
Swansea to Pembroke Dock/Milford Haven/Fishguard normally deviates via Carmarthen (reverse)
CrossCountry to Southampton, etc. deviates from the West Curve and reverses at Reading
Peterborough-Lincoln services deviate via Sleaford
Various trains between Reading and Castle Cary/Taunton deviate via Westbury and/or Frome
Various trains between Bristol and Taunton deviate via Weston-super-Mare
Some Coastway services deviate via Littlehampton
Plenty of Calder Valley trains deviate via Halifax/Bradford

The real issue is whether allowing people to make intermediate journeys is more important than end-to-end speed.

 

[aliceh]

2019's South Western Railway summer Saturday service the long way round to Wareham was timetabled to complete the single journey from Waterloo in 4h 35, (dep. 0635, arr. 11.10), the direct fast train via Southampton is 2h 23.

 

[bunnahabhain]

In the December 2020 timetable there will be some Leicester to Peterborough via Nottingham and Lincoln Central services. That's a pretty hefty detour!

 

[Whistler40145]

In the December 2020 timetable there will be some Leicester to Peterborough via Nottingham and Lincoln Central services. That's a pretty hefty detour!

Sure is

 

[cactustwirly]

In the December 2020 timetable there will be some Leicester to Peterborough via Nottingham and Lincoln Central services. That's a pretty hefty detour!

Could be quite confusing as there are direct XC services to Peterborough from Leicester

 

[NoMorePacers]

Could be quite confusing as there are direct XC services to Peterborough from Leicester

Those EMR services would probably be advertised at Leicester as "Spalding" or wherever the last stop before Peterborough is, so people intending to travel from Leicester to Peterborough don't end up getting on said service which is much slower than the XC trains. Such arrangements already exist with Harrogate Loop trains at Leeds and York being advertised as being for Burley Park/Poppleton (and the Leeds-Bradford-Huddersfield stoppers as being for Bramley/Brighouse before they were cut back).

 

[Dai Corner]

Dinting to Hadfield normally deviates via Glossop (reverse)
Swansea to Pembroke Dock/Milford Haven/Fishguard normally deviates via Carmarthen (reverse)
CrossCountry to Southampton, etc. deviates from the West Curve and reverses at Reading
Peterborough-Lincoln services deviate via Sleaford
Various trains between Reading and Castle Cary/Taunton deviate via Westbury and/or Frome
Various trains between Bristol and Taunton deviate via Weston-super-Mare
Some Coastway services deviate via Littlehampton
Plenty of Calder Valley trains deviate via Halifax/Bradford

The real issue is whether allowing people to make intermediate journeys is more important than end-to-end speed.

If we can count those, how about the Cardiff-Portsmouths and Gloucester-Weymouths which go into Temple Meads instead of using the Rhubarb Curve?

 

[Iskra]

Dinting to Hadfield normally deviates via Glossop (reverse)
Swansea to Pembroke Dock/Milford Haven/Fishguard normally deviates via Carmarthen (reverse)
CrossCountry to Southampton, etc. deviates from the West Curve and reverses at Reading
Peterborough-Lincoln services deviate via Sleaford
Various trains between Reading and Castle Cary/Taunton deviate via Westbury and/or Frome
Various trains between Bristol and Taunton deviate via Weston-super-Mare
Some Coastway services deviate via Littlehampton
Plenty of Calder Valley trains deviate via Halifax/Bradford

The real issue is whether allowing people to make intermediate journeys is more important than end-to-end speed.

There is no way to avoid Bradford Interchange station?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Via Brighouse.

 

[route101]

There's an afternoon Glasgow-Inverness that runs via Aberdeen, adds around 100 mins to the journey time.

XC run Glasgow to the South West via the ECML. Journey time Glasgow-Brum is approx. 6 hours compared with the approx. 4 hours on VT via the WCML. The VT Glasgow-Birmingham is itself an offender as it now continues to Euston, adding considerably to the Glasgow-Euston journey time compared to via the Trent Valley.

Its not that much longer via Brum , an hour or a bit less

 

[route101]

Back in Virgin XC days, several services used to do Brum-Preston via Stoke and Piccadilly, another time consuming diversion.

Aberdeen/ Glasgow to Bournemouths i think .

 

[Whistler40145]

I'm sure in the normal timetable, there's a XC service from Manchester Piccadilly that's routed via Styal, Crewe and Stoke-on-Trent to Stafford

 

[route101]

I'm sure in the normal timetable, there's a XC service from Manchester Piccadilly that's routed via Styal, Crewe and Stoke-on-Trent to Stafford

Suprised XC dont run more of their services via Crewe

 

[Whistler40145]

Suprised XC dont run more of their services via Crewe

Think it's just one train per day that goes via Styal and Alsager

 

[NoMorePacers]

Suprised XC dont run more of their services via Crewe

Likely because they serve more people by going via Stoke (Crewe-Manchester/Birmingham is already fairly well served, whereas XC were for a while the only operator to regularly run between Stoke and Birmingham).

 

[Iskra]

Via Brighouse.

That’s more an alternate route than a detour.

 

[PHILIPE]

Likely because they serve more people by going via Stoke (Crewe-Manchester/Birmingham is already fairly well served, whereas XC were for a while the only operator to regularly run between Stoke and Birmingham).

Nothing to do with XC. The DFT (or was it still SRA at the time) decided the boundaries.

 

[greyman42]

The 2200 kings Cross to York and the 2333 Kings Cross to Leeds both go via Knottingley (after Doncaster) for engineering/route knowledge.

 

[Halish Railway]

Do any XC services omit Leeds and go direct from Sheffield via Moorthorpe?

If we are talking about using the Dearne Valley line entirely (no stop at Leeds or Doncaster) then they do but only when trains have been diverted - It happened a couple of weeks ago when the Swinton to Doncaster route was shut. I'm unaware of any of any Edinburgh to Plymouth trains being diverted via that route - It might have happened during an overnight and early-morning possession of Leeds when the new OHLE portals were put into place to allow for platform 0 to be built, though they might have gone via Castleford and the Normanton lines.

 

[Web4160]

Redcar to Manchester Airport trains under the current key workers timetable and running via Wakefield Kirkgate and then the Calder Valley route

 

[splitfare]

IH98 Birmingham International to Manchester Piccadilly (Transport for Wales) via Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury, Chester and Warrington Bank Quay. Departs 2109 arrives Manchester 0025.
2138 Crosscountry service from Birmingham International arrives Manchester Piccadilly 2324 - journey time 1 hr 46 mins, one and a half hours faster than the elongated Transport for Wales service.

NB currently terminating at Chester under Key Workers Timetable.

 

[PHILIPE]

IH98 Birmingham International to Manchester Piccadilly (Transport for Wales) via Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury, Chester and Warrington Bank Quay. Departs 2109 arrives Manchester 0025.
2138 Crosscountry service from Birmingham International arrives Manchester Piccadilly 2324 - journey time 1 hr 46 mins, one and a half hours faster than the elongated Transport for Wales service.

NB currently terminating at Chester under Key Workers Timetable.

1H98 is one of these cases when a Birmingham to Chester and a Chester to Manchester become merged into one.