Trivia: Fewest stations you'd need to visit to see all TOCs.

[D6975]

as a minimum you need:
- one in Scotland (or Carlisle)
- one on the southern part of the ECML between DON & KGX (for GC/HT)
- one in Merseyside
- Paddington (as you need HEX)
- one in c2c territory (Stratford appears to count, at least in the current normal WTT)
- one in Southeastern territory
- one in SWT territory

So, in theory, you might only need 7. However, I always end up with 1 TOC left over, so end up needing 8.

No, none of those seven can possibly give you ATW (at the moment anyway) so 8 is going to be the min. edit - forgot Chester, so might be possible.

 

[fairysdad]

I counted Stratford & International as one station (as they're the same building), though I suppose that's technically cheating.

They're not the same building, unless you count walking through Westfield, that is...

 

[jopsuk]

Even if you walk through Westfield they're not the one building- you've got to cross this plaza

 

[najaB]

Even if you walk through Westfield they're not the one building- you've got to cross this plaza

If the two Stratfords are the same building then Kings Cross-St Pancras must be too!

 

[greaterwest]

Oops, my bad then. I haven't been to Stratford in a very long time.

Looks like it is 8 for everything then.
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No, none of those seven can possibly give you ATW (at the moment anyway) so 8 is going to be the min. edit - forgot Chester, so might be possible.

Chester won't give you London Midland, and Liverpool LS won't give you ATW

 

[najaB]

Looks like it is 8 for everything then.

It's possible to get them all in seven, unless I've done something wrong: Edit - yes I did!

Doncaster
Hull Trains
Grand Central
East Midlands Trains

London Paddington
Great Western Railway
Heathrow Express*

Edinburgh
Scotrail
Caledonian Sleeper
TransPennine Express
Virgin Trains
CrossCountry
Virgin Trains East Coast

London Liverpool Street
TfL Rail
Abellio Greater Anglia
c2c
London Overground

Clapham Junction
Southeastern
South West Trains
Govia Thameslink Railway (Southern)

Chester
Northern
Merseyrail
Arriva Trains Wales

Smethwick
London Midland
Chiltern Railways

 

[mirodo]

Do any Southeastern services pass through Clapham Junction?

 

[najaB]

Do any Southeastern services pass through Clapham Junction?

Damnit! Southern, not Southeastern! I had found an 'odd' Southeastern station earlier though...
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So back to eight because of Heathrow Express.

 

[yorkie]

I counted Stratford & International as one station (as they're the same building), though I suppose that's technically cheating.

Well, if that counts, we have got to count Waterloo/Waterloo East!

I never thought of GTR as one train operating company, though they are I suppose.

They certainly are! But, in certain contexts, they try their best to hide it, for reasons that are best not discussed in this thread. Plenty of other threads discussing it though!

 

[BestWestern]

Or other routes in the country (there are no regional trains from anywhere in the South East, except Brighton, and that's only 2 trains per day)

Depends what you call South East, I suppose (since you mention Brighton I assume you aren't referring to the Southeastern TOC territory?)

Reading/Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton all have regular services provided by XC to Oxford, the Midlands and beyond, avoiding London. And of course, by the same token that Brighton has it's two regional services a day, Portsmouth has one every hour (both services also calling at Southampton). But with London just up the road, there isn't a great deal of need for long, slow cross-country journeys when one can almost certainly get there quicker via the capital.

 

[greaterwest]

Depends what you call South East, I suppose (since you mention Brighton I assume you aren't referring to the Southeastern TOC territory?)

Reading/Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton all have regular services provided by XC to Oxford, the Midlands and beyond, avoiding London. And of course, by the same token that Brighton has it's two regional services a day, Portsmouth has one every hour (both services also calling at Southampton). But with London just up the road, there isn't a great deal of need for long, slow cross-country journeys when one can almost certainly get there quicker via the capital.

My generalisation of the "South East" in that post was basically East of Portsmouth, really, as Portsmouth is the furthest South East that frequent regional services run.

You are right about the "quick" access to London from the South East though.
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Well, if that counts, we have got to count Waterloo/Waterloo East!

Indeed that thought crossed my mind, though I don't think it'll help much.

 

[najaB]

Indeed that thought crossed my mind, though I don't think it'll help much.

It does in that it allows you to get both South West Trains and the 'troublesome' Southeastern in one station.

 

[DarloRich]

can we cheat and call, say, Waterloo and Waterloo East or Kings Cross & St Pancras 1 station?
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the only one i cant get in under 7 is ( by cheating a little) is LM! HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

 

[najaB]

the only one i cant get in under 7 is ( by cheating a little) is LM!

Have you tried Bedford - lets you cross off EM, LM and TL?

 

[DarloRich]

Have you tried Bedford - lets you cross off EM, LM and TL?

no still 7. It is LM or Chiltern that messes things up

 

[Andyjs247]

no still 7. It is LM or Chiltern that messes things up

Smethwick Galton Bridge would give you LM, CH and AW but I still don't think it helps overall.

 

[najaB]

Smethwick Galton Bridge would give you LM, CH and AW but I still don't think it helps overall.

Yeah, I used it in my best attempt so far but still needed seven.

Does anyone know if there's a list anywhere of which TOCs call (or pass) which stations? This might need some computer power to find an optimal solution.

 

[backontrack]

Best I could do:

Paddington (Heathrow Express, Great Western, Chiltern Railways)
Doncaster (Hull Trains, Grand Central, Virgin Trains EC, Northern, TransPennine Express, CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains)
Crewe (ATW, Virgin Trains WC, London Midland)
St Pancras (Southeastern, GTR, Eurostar)
Clapham Junction (Overground, South West Trains)
Glasgow Central (ScotRail, Caledonian Sleeper)
Stratford (c2c, Greater Anglia)
James Street (Merseyrail)

 

[HSTEd]

Scotrail causes me all sorts of problems because, unlike Caledonian Sleeper, you can't get them at Crewe any more.

 

[backontrack]

The main tripping point is the gap between Bristol and Gloucester. If ATW operated to Bristol, I could do it in 7. As it is, the only way of doing it in seven is by omitting the open access operators. Doncaster may seem like an important stop, but most of their TOCs are at Edinburgh Waverley. EMT operate to St Pancras (Southeastern) and Northern will be at the Merseyside station (Liverpool Lime St. or Chester). It's just Grand Central and Hull Trains that provide a stumbling block.

 

[pdeaves]

Does anyone know if there's a list anywhere of which TOCs call (or pass) which stations? This might need some computer power to find an optimal solution.

This may help http://www.barrydoe.co.uk/railmap33.pdf

Linked from here (it's an unconventional site where everything is in PDFs).

 

[najaB]

This may help.

Thanks. I was working with a similar map from National Rail. We'd need a list in a MySQL database or similar so that we could run a travelling salesman type algorithm.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Okay, thanks everyone!
So if I want to see all TOCs I'd need to visit 8 stations.
These lists you've made are great.

What's the best 8 though? St Pancras has Eurostar, and many other stations have metros etc. Could we get alot more train/tram companies to see while keeping the main requirements?

 

[ijmad]

On a related note, I was wondering if there was a comprehensive list of which TOCs call at which stations somewhere. I've been looking at the full operators map (warning: big) but it likely has some omissions here and there, plus having it as a data file would let me write a quick script to compute the optimal solution to the fewest stations problem!

 

[najaB]

On a related note...

Almost a duplicate of my post #52.

 

[endecotp]

travelling salesman type algorithm.

It's the Set Cover Problem.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_cover_problem

 

[najaB]

It's the Set Cover Problem.

Thanks - knew it was one of them, but it's been ages since my last CS course.

 

[ijmad]

Almost a duplicate of my post #52.

Hah, sorry, I'm a latecomer!
Maybe could do it by hand for just the 'big' stations and the 'interesting' stations where TOCs cross. It might be a less big problem than we think...

 

[DarloRich]

The main tripping point is the gap between Bristol and Gloucester. If ATW operated to Bristol, I could do it in 7. As it is, the only way of doing it in seven is by omitting the open access operators. Doncaster may seem like an important stop, but most of their TOCs are at Edinburgh Waverley. EMT operate to St Pancras (Southeastern) and Northern will be at the Merseyside station (Liverpool Lime St. or Chester). It's just Grand Central and Hull Trains that provide a stumbling block.

you can do all of the TOC's in 7 just not 6!

 

[Andyjs247]

you can do all of the TOC's in 7 just not 6!

IF the Halton Curve is opened and it then allows the Wales and Borders operator to serve Liverpool Lime Street then I think potentially it could be done with 6 stations (NB this is also provided that the conjoined Waterloo/Waterloo East can count as one station):

London Paddington

• Great Western Railway
• Heathrow Express
• Heathrow Connect
• Chiltern

London Waterloo/Waterloo East

• SWT
• Southeastern

London Liverpool Street

• Abellio Greater Anglia
• c2c
• London Overground
• TfL Rail

Liverpool South Parkway

• Arriva Trains Wales (potential new service via Halton Curve)
• London Midland
• Merseyrail
• Northern
• Virgin Trains
• East Midlands Trains
• TransPennine Express

Edinburgh Waverley

• Scotrail
• Caledonian Sleeper
• Virgin Trains East Coast
• Cross Country
• Virgin Trains
• TransPennine Express

Peterborough

• Govia Thameslink Railway
• Grand Central
• Hull Trains
• Virgin Trains East Coast
• Cross Country
• East Midlands Trains
• Abellio Greater Anglia

If Waterloo/Waterloo East can't be counted as one, then its 7 stations - I would substitute St Pancras and Clapham Junction instead of WAT (which then allows you to include Eurostar plus the former Southern, Gatwick Express and Thameslink to give all 4 flavours of GTR)