• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Trivia: How many countries with a land border with at least one other have no cross-border passenger rail service?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MarcVD

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2016
Messages
1,004
I don’t know whether this counts, but Afghanistan is served by a few rail heads from Uzbekistan (Termez to Mazar-i-Sharif) and Turkmenistan (Thorgundi and Aquina). Those lines are all freight only. There is also a line from Iran supposedly in construction for at least 10 years.

And then there are two lines from the extreme east of Uzbekistan to Jalal-Abad and Osh in Kirghizistan. Also freight only, and I don't know to which extent it is still in use.
It's not connected to the main Kirghiz network, which is just one line from the Kazhak border to their capital city Bishkek, plus a couple of spurs.

I think that in eastern Mongolia, there is a north-south line, hanging from the Russian transsib, that serves a huge mining complex. Completely disconnected from the main network of Mongolia, and freight only.

And just for the fun, there used to be a similar situation, albeit on a much smaller scale, between Belgium and France. There was a line heading south from Signeulx, a tiny station on the southernmost part of the Athus-Meuse line. It went to Gorcy, an even tinier village in France, to serve a metallurgical industry that had no connection with the French network. Never had any passenger service, and administratively, it was a real nightmare. I think it closed in the 70ies.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
2,690
Location
London
Haparanda - Tornio. Dual gauge track (4 rails) between those two cities. So theoretically each network could serve the station across the border. But that ceased long ago. Today, as far as I know, those two border towns are not even served domestically anymore. I think even the cross border freight traffic is closed since years. But the track was still there last time I looked with Google Earth.

Seasonal Finnish services do still run to Tornio - but they then "turn right" and head north up the line on the Finnish side of the border; Swedish trains no longer run as far as Haparanda. I remember making a connection there (a very long time ago), when it was possible.
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
2,690
Location
London
In 2016 we were steam-hauled up the long climb from Trieste to Villa Opicina via Aurisina and saw there were trains from Ljubljana crossing the border. The tram had just closed I think and we saw two of the cable tractors parked up. I wondered whether it had reopened but reopening no doubt delayed by Covid-19. The extension to Villa Opicina station was closed in 1938! Is there just no demand for a Ljubljana to Trieste service?

The regular Italy-Slovenia service used to run a long time back (in Cold War, pre-EU times!), but then disappeared for years (when I was last there, the only option was the historic tram up to the border area from Trieste). It did - finally - restart a couple of years or so back, but has since stopped again for reasons I haven't seen explained.

And frustratingly, there are also no through passenger services these days using the Italy-Slovenia link further north at Gorizia. That's more direct from elsewhere in Italy, to save going down to Trieste and looping from there; though admittedly not that convenient for speed if you're heading to Ljubljana, since I think it requires reversals at both the Italian and Slovenian Gorzia stations
 
Last edited:

jamesontheroad

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2009
Messages
2,032
Fairly sure passenger traffic doesn't go between Sweden and Finland. Know change in gauge makes it more difficult if it did.

Correct, currently no service. Norrtåg will resume passenger service from Luleå and Boden to Haparanda in 2021. The Finnish government has indicated that the line from Haparanda, over the bridge, to Tornio and Kemi, will be electrified in the near future.

Currently the Haparanda line is electrified, but the Finnish side is not. Future Norrtåg service will be provided by electric multiple units. The bridge has a box girder construction with very tight height clearance, so the electrification will not be simple.

I did the journey many years ago, and you had to change trains because of the gauge change; but I'm pretty sure the lines actually met at the station on one side (the Swedish side) of the border. Now they don't even do that (ie there's no station served by both countries' trains) - I believe the ones from the Finland side no longer cross the border (though there is the right track for them to do so) and on the Swedish side the passenger trains don't run at all on the last section to the border town on their side (Haparanda).

Haparanda - Tornio. Dual gauge track (4 rails) between those two cities. So theoretically each network could serve the station across the border. But that ceased long ago. Today, as far as I know, those two border towns are not even served domestically anymore. I think even the cross border freight traffic is closed since years. But the track was still there last time I looked with Google Earth.
Never heard of these towns, which are effectively joined together. Since Sweden and Finland are in different time zones, Haparanda is one hour behind Tornio, allowing a unique spectacle on New Year's Eve, when people can welcome in the new year twice. Since 2005 the cities have rebranded themselves as "Haparanda-Tornio" in Sweden, and "Tornio-Haparanda" in Finland.


Both Finnish and Swedish gauge tracks cross the bridge. In Finland the Swedish track goes as far as the disused Tornio station, now bypassed by VR night trains which stop at the newer Tornio-Itäinen halt on the north of town without the need to reverse.

In Sweden the Finnish tracks can be found serving the platform on the north side of Haparanda station building (and continue to the freight yard) while Swedish/European gauge serve the rest. The station (which is beautiful) is slated for renovation with a restored entrance at ground level, and stairs/elevator to platform level above where a heated waiting room will serve tracks on both sides. A youth club in the building has been given notice to vacate, although I don’t think work has started.
 
Last edited:

jamesontheroad

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2009
Messages
2,032
Quick PS to the above, about Haparanda. There have been a couple of relatively recent special excursions, called drömtåget (the dream train), where Swedish and/or Finnish trains have made it to Haparanda.

In 2017, a VR DMU crossed the border, but the Swedish train that had intended to meet it broke down. Video of the VR train arriving on the northern Finnish-gauge platform at Haparanda station are here:


In 2016, a Norrtåg EMU also made it to Haparanda, but there is no footage of an equivalent VR train meeting it. Maybe that was its turn to break down. In this video, the Norrtåg train arrives at the southernmost platform, i.e. not the platform immediately adjacent to the south side of the station, but the furthest track to the south, This is where the last scheduled SJ trains used to stop when the station building was decommissioned. Future services intend to use either side of the island platform that has the station on it, so both can access heated waiting rooms, etc.

 

Calthrop

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2015
Messages
3,295
In an instance of this phenomenon which I find interesting and rather poignant: the subject country is Myanmar (Burma). The country has an extensive (and growing) metre-gauge rail system; but no physical rail links of any kind, with any other land. A fairly obvious ploy would seem to be, to link Myanmar by rail with neighbouring Thailand: which has an extensive rail system, also metre-gauge, with connections into Peninsular Malaysia and (in eras when things are going well) into Cambodia. This has, however, not come about; except once, in pretty much the most ephemerally brief circumstances imaginable. This involved the infamous "Death Railway" of World War II: its construction -- causing horrendous privation and loss of life in respect of the forced labourers used for the project -- being primarily for the military ends of the Japanese occupiers of the region at the time; linking the Thai rail system, with the extreme southern end of the then Burmese ditto. As I understand things, the line was completed and, very briefly, trains ran on it throughout; but Allied bombing almost immediately put it out of commission for good -- it never served any worthwhile purpose for the Japanese.

Had things in this part of the world taken a different course shortly post-WWII, one reckons that the Burma -- Thailand rail link could -- with its being "built and there" -- have been put to positive peacetime use. I gather, though, that: largely owing to Burma, after gaining independence from Britain in in 1948, choosing essentially to become for many decades a "hermit nation", with minimal dealings with the rest of the world -- there was no strong initiative to put the international rail link back into commission. Things thus ended up with the Japanese-built line being retained as a branch-line of the Thai rail system, as far up toward the Thailand / Burma border, as Nam Tok; the line further north-westward was, in both countries, abandoned and in time dismantled. The resultant gap is of a little under 200 km. in distance; it would seem that given the will: restoration of this, and long-term linking of Thailand's and Myanmar's rail systems, would be perfectly feasible.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,352
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
As ever the US has a disjointed approach. There are multiple services across the northern border between NY and Toronto, Seattle & Vancouver , and there are further plans to expand to Toronto out of Chicago which may or may not come to fruition.

Other than freight there's nothing on the southern border. As far as I'm aware the last time any US - Mexico passenger service operated was a regular excursion run by a railroad museum in southern California but that ended in 2009 after a border tunnel collapse. Nothing since.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,179
As ever the US has a disjointed approach. There are multiple services across the northern border between NY and Toronto, Seattle & Vancouver , and there are further plans to expand to Toronto out of Chicago which may or may not come to fruition.

Other than freight there's nothing on the southern border. As far as I'm aware the last time any US - Mexico passenger service operated was a regular excursion run by a railroad museum in southern California but that ended in 2009 after a border tunnel collapse. Nothing since.

There are 3 lines with passenger service (one daily train each way for each of them) over the US/Canada border (NY-Montreal, NY-Toronto and Seattle-Vancouver). The border is 6416 km, so a crossing at an average of 2138km [1328 miles].

I guess the illegal immigration/smuggling problems on the Mexican border would put through passenger train service in the too difficult box?
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,352
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
There are 3 lines with passenger service (one daily train each way for each of them) over the US/Canada border (NY-Montreal, NY-Toronto and Seattle-Vancouver). The border is 6416 km, so a crossing at an average of 2138km [1328 miles].

I guess the illegal immigration/smuggling problems on the Mexican border would put through passenger train service in the too difficult box?

There are definite commuter flows (think San Diego - TJ or border cities like Laredo or El Paso) that could benefit from cross border services. But yes, I do believe that 'too difficult' box is where any vague notions end up.
 

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
2,907
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
Israel does not have any cross border line with their adjacent countries. Lines to Lebanon and Syria were destroyed during the independence war, the line to Egypt during the 6 days war. Israel still uses a few Egyptian locos that were captured before this destruction. There never was a line to Jordan, but there are talks about one.
While there was no direct line from Palestine to Jordan, the narrow gauge Hedjaz Railway Jezreel Valley line from Haifa to Der'a provided connections to Amman as well as Damascus up to June 1946, when a key viaduct between Samakh and al-Hamma over the River Yarmuk was blown up by the Palmach (the elite commandos of the Zionist Haganah), forcing closure of the line as a through route. Many years later, the section west of the River Jordan from Haifa to Beit She'an has been re-opened as a standard gauge line, but I do not expect that neighbouring Arab states will ever establish rail links with what they refer to as the Zionist entity.
 

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
2,907
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
There are definite commuter flows (think San Diego - TJ or border cities like Laredo or El Paso) that could benefit from cross border services. But yes, I do believe that 'too difficult' box is where any vague notions end up.
There used to be an international streetcar service between El Paso and Ciudad Juarez which closed in the early 1970s; 6 of the streetcars used on that line have been restored and now run on a heritage route within central El Paso, but I don't envisage they will ever cross the Rio Grande again.
 

MarcVD

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2016
Messages
1,004
While there was no direct line from Palestine to Jordan, the narrow gauge Hedjaz Railway Jezreel Valley line from Haifa to Der'a provided connections to Amman as well as Damascus up to June 1946, when a key viaduct between Samakh and al-Hamma over the River Yarmuk was blown up by the Palmach (the elite commandos of the Zionist Haganah), forcing closure of the line as a through route. Many years later, the section west of the River Jordan from Haifa to Beit She'an has been re-opened as a standard gauge line, but I do not expect that neighbouring Arab states will ever establish rail links with what they refer to as the Zionist entity.

I was in Israel in 2015, have seen the line from Haifa to Beit Shean still in construction, and tried to follow the remains of the line to Syria, seeing and photographing those dynamited bridges along the way, until I saw signs warning me that the terrain was mined. Then I turned back. Later on I visited the Israel railways museum in Haifa (a must see if you are in the area), talked to a museum official who, when I told him that I was belgian, gave me a picture of the first israeli diesel loco, still in test on belgian rails, less than a mile away from where I lived when I was child. It's him who told me that there were talks between Israel and Jordan to extend the line from Beit Shean to Amman, for the goods traffic that currently goes by truck between Jordan and the port of Haifa.
 

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
2,907
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
.... It's him who told me there were talks between Israel and Jordan to extend the line from Beit Shean to Amman, for the goods traffic that currently goes by truck between Jordan and the port of Haifa.
While surreptitious road transport may take place on this route, presumably as a consequence of the Syrian civil war and troubles in Beirut, it can cease at a moment's notice should the political mood require a cessation of even de facto inter-state relations. Building of such a railway would require crossing of the deep River Jordan rift valley and would be a massive infrastructure project. It would be a public declaration of a long-term relationship with a state regarded by Arabs as a cancer at the heart of the Levant, so is very unlikely to happen. It would also be extremely vulnerable to terrorist action, as demonstrated by the Palmach in June 1946 in the "Night of the Bridges".
 

JonasB

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2016
Messages
921
Location
Sweden
Haparanda - Tornio. Dual gauge track (4 rails) between those two cities. So theoretically each network could serve the station across the border. But that ceased long ago. Today, as far as I know, those two border towns are not even served domestically anymore. I think even the cross border freight traffic is closed since years. But the track was still there last time I looked with Google Earth.

There are still freight trains to Haparanda, and while I'm not sure what their actual destination is, I guess most of it crosses the border (but to be honest, that can be done by lorry as well). Here is a short cabride from last winter by a freight train driver (he also has a full cabride of the line in daylight on his channel for those who are interested in watching 2 hours of snow):


There have been talks about extending the standard gauge track a bit on the Finnish side as well, but so far it has only been talks.

Correct, currently no service. Norrtåg will resume passenger service from Luleå and Boden to Haparanda in 2021. The Finnish government has indicated that the line from Haparanda, over the bridge, to Tornio and Kemi, will be electrified in the near future.

Currently the Haparanda line is electrified, but the Finnish side is not. Future Norrtåg service will be provided by electric multiple units. The bridge has a box girder construction with very tight height clearance, so the electrification will not be simple.

The Haparanda line was upgraded around 8 years ago. The western part was electrified and the track was upgraded and the eastern part replaced by a brand new line, built for 250 km/h. It is rather embarrassing that it has taken 8 years for passenger trains to return, but now the plan is as mentioned to start a new Luleå to Haparanda service in april next year which will reduce the travel time with about 45 minutes to around 1:45. And this time it's for real, a station is being built in Kalix and Norrtåg have acquired a couple of used EMUs for the traffic.

In 2016, a Norrtåg EMU also made it to Haparanda, but there is no footage of an equivalent VR train meeting it. Maybe that was its turn to break down. In this video, the Norrtåg train arrives at the southernmost platform, i.e. not the platform immediately adjacent to the south side of the station, but the furthest track to the south, This is where the last scheduled SJ trains used to stop when the station building was decommissioned. Future services intend to use either side of the island platform that has the station on it, so both can access heated waiting rooms, etc.

The last scheduled passenger trains to Haparanda were Tågkompaniet's passenger trains to Haparanda. In the summer of 2000 they operated a passenger train between Luleå and Haparanda to connect with the night trains to Stockholm. Those where probably the last loco hauled diesel passenger trains in Sweden (a photo of the train can be found on this site) but where not a big success so they only lasted one season. Before that, the regular trains were replaced by buses in 1992 if I'm not mistaken.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top