Trivia:Intercity Routes which have more air travel than train travel

[route101]

I have always been amazed that in the 60's there were Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen flights. Does anyone have any more information on these, when did they finish?

Pretty sure there was flights from Dundee to Glasgow, Prestwick and Edinburgh too .
The Glasgow/ Edinburgh to Aberdeen flights lasted till late 90s if not early 2000s , they may have been going onto shetland or orkney .
More recently Edinburgh to Inverness lasted till around 4 years ago , im sure this used to go onto Kirkwall .
Edinburgh to Wick and Glasgow to Campbeltown is last intra mainland scottish flights .

 

[frodshamfella]

Liverpool to Isle of Man is a busy domestic air route, I don't know the figures, I realized it's a bit difficult by rail. : -)

 

[route:oxford]

Liverpool to Isle of Man is a busy domestic air route, I don't know the figures, I realized it's a bit difficult by rail. : -)

It's not even part of the UK (or Europe).

 

[Garmoran]

I have always been amazed that in the 60's there were Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen flights. Does anyone have any more information on these, when did they finish?

Were passengers allowed to fly just from Glasgow to Edinburgh? I know back in the 1980s some of the flights from the Netherlands to Newcastle used top stop at what was then Teesside International Airport en route but I am not sure if people were allowed to fly from Teesside to Newcastle only.

About 10 years ago I travelled on a scheduled summer service Glasgow-Edinburgh-Barcelona. We were scarcely off the ground before we landed at Edinburgh where we sat for ages while they solved some problem packing in airfreight. I can't remember the name of the company, think it had "Globe" or "Global" in it. They only operated the route for a couple of years. Pretty certain the Edinburgh stop was pick up only.

 

[takno]

About 10 years ago I travelled on a scheduled summer service Glasgow-Edinburgh-Barcelona. We were scarcely off the ground before we landed at Edinburgh where we sat for ages while they solved some problem packing in airfreight. I can't remember the name of the company, think it had "Globe" or "Global" in it. They only operated the route for a couple of years. Pretty certain the Edinburgh stop was pick up only.

I would guess that was flyglobespan. They only went bust 7 years ago, but I'd almost completely forgotten them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not even part of the UK (or Europe).

It's in a customs and border union with the UK though, so the flights are to all intents and purposes domestic.

 

[Garmoran]

I would guess that was flyglobespan.

Yes, that was them. Only company at the time to fly Glasgow/Edinburgh - Barcelona. Saved us quite a bit in air passenger duty, as we had 5 seats to pay for at that point in our lives.

 

[thenorthern]

Regarding the Isle of Man from what I understand flights between the United Kingdom, Channel Islands, Isle of Man and the Republic of Ireland are classed as domestic for all intents and purposes there is no requirement to show a passport to fly between any of them although Photo ID is required for any flight even if its a domestic flight where both airports are in the United Kingdom.

I know as well at East Midlands there is a "Domestic Channel Islands and Republic of Ireland" arrivals and "Domestic UK and Isle of Man" arrivals. From what I understand this is because with flights from the Republic of Ireland Leicestershire Police want to oversee the arriving passengers and with the Channel Islands because unlike the Isle of Man they aren't part of the EU VAT area and many people arrive over their duty free allowance.

One question though do more people use the Eurostar to get between London or Paris or fly?

 

[route:oxford]

Regarding the Isle of Man from what I understand flights between the United Kingdom, Channel Islands, Isle of Man and the Republic of Ireland are classed as domestic for all intents and purposes there is no requirement to show a passport to fly between any of them although Photo ID is required for any flight even if its a domestic flight where both airports are in the United Kingdom.

It may be policy of your airline not to carry passengers without photo ID on domestic flights...

I've been instructed to present photo ID when flying between Edinburgh or Glasgow and London Gatwick, London Heathrow, London City or London Oxford over the last 25 years (at least 300 flights) as often as I've been asked to present photo ID in order to travel East Coast or West Coast.

I don't fly Ryanair or Easyjet though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, BA don't require photo ID for domestics if not checking a bag. I half think they require *something* (possibly only a credit card) if you are checking a bag.

easyJet and Ryanair require it for revenue protection reasons[1], not any others. UK airport security have no interest in it, the process, unlike in the US, is not based on who you are. The boarding pass scan is simply to prevent security being clogged up with non-passengers going through to see people off, and the security agent who deals with you does not know who you are. Most people have their passport in their hands on entering security, but they will never be asked for it in the UK until the gate (or desk checkin if applicable).

[1] I still remain surprised that, to prevent resale, TOCs don't put names on at least Advance tickets and require ID of some kind.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

From my experience as well many flights from regional airports to London Heathrow are not people wanting to go to London but more just getting a connecting flight. Whenever I have done the Manchester to London Heathrow flight its been passengers getting a connecting flight at London Heathrow mostly to the United States.

I used to use connecting flights from Manchester to London but they became so unreliable and stress inducing that I now use National Express coaches. The train is unattractive due to peak hour fare issues, lack of luggage space and the lack of any direct bus or train service from Euston to Heathrow. Gatwick, Luton and Stansted are equally problematic.

 

[johnnychips]

Try KLM from Manchester to Amsterdam. They fly almost everywhere you can from Heathrow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used to use connecting flights from Manchester to London but they became so unreliable and stress inducing that I now use National Express coaches. The train is unattractive due to peak hour fare issues, lack of luggage space and the lack of any direct bus or train service from Euston to Heathrow. Gatwick, Luton and Stansted are equally problematic.

Interesting that you find coaches more reliable - doesn't traffic put paid to this? Or do you travel the day before and stay over?

 

[Liam]

Why be amazed though?

Until 1990, when the Conservative Government delivered the "Open Skies" for Scotland policy (much to the fury of the SNP who claimed the policy was ''short-sighted, destructive, and anti-Scottish'' and Labour who claimed it "defies logic") all transatlantic flights from Scotland had to arrive and depart from Prestwick Airport. From 1990 onwards Scots were permitted to fly transatlantic from Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen. So passengers used internal domestic flights to get to and from the international airport.

Yes, the Prestwick link for transatlantic connections is understandable, but these flights were from Inchinnan/Renfrew. From what I gather, there was definately a Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen-Wick-Kirkwall-Sumburgh and Edinburgh-Glasgow-Benbecula-Stornoway. Suppose it made sense to only fly one plane from the Central Belt and Aberdeen to Wick and the Islands if it covered demand.

 

[frodshamfella]

It's not even part of the UK (or Europe).

Well if you want to be pernickety !!!

 

[dcsprior]

Yeah, BA don't require photo ID for domestics if not checking a bag. I half think they require *something* (possibly only a credit card) if you are checking a bag.

easyJet and Ryanair require it for revenue protection reasons[1], not any others. UK airport security have no interest in it, the process, unlike in the US, is not based on who you are. The boarding pass scan is simply to prevent security being clogged up with non-passengers going through to see people off, and the security agent who deals with you does not know who you are. Most people have their passport in their hands on entering security, but they will never be asked for it in the UK until the gate (or desk checkin if applicable).

Dunno about Ryanair, but easyJet only ask for ID if you have a checked bag.

[1] I still remain surprised that, to prevent resale, TOCs don't put names on at least Advance tickets and require ID of some kind.

Because some transfers of advance tickets are currently allowed - e.g. a company may buy an advance ticket for one of it's employees to travel before it knows which employee it'll be sending.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've always been asked for ID at the gate when boarding an easyJet flight.

 

[Starmill]

The fact that domestic air routes of less than 200 miles are viable for even a single flight is quite amazing - and it says something shocking about our attitude to sustainable transport. These flights are a huge waste of resources and cause of pollution and totally unnecessary carbon emissions.

I know the market demands them, but the market has failed.

*possible exception for some services to small islands which would otherwise only be accessible by ferry

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm taking bets on how long this farce will stay airborne.

Don’t bet against it. Might be significant freight uptake, as it’s between two Stobart airports and I assume the flight will be operated by Stobart Air as well.

 

[thenorthern]

Don’t bet against it. Might be significant freight uptake, as it’s between two Stobart airports and I assume the flight will be operated by Stobart Air as well.

Yes although Stobart Air don't operate flights on their own they are franchised with codeshare agreements involving Aer Lingus or FlyBe. I would expect it would be FlyBe but given that Dublin flights have been mentioned as well it could be either. Ryanair have previously shown interest in using Carlisle Airport.

Carlisle Airport has previously had a scheduled flights I think there have previously been flights to Glasgow, Leeds Bradford and several London Airports but none have lasted more than a couple of years. Carlisle itself isn't very big and it has very good rail and road links already. I don't think the new flights will last long though and I don't think Virgin Trains will be worried about competition.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

With KLM their city hopper flights from airports on the East Coast to Amsterdam Schiphol are a nice little earner, I know that the busiest routes from Southend, Norwich, Humberside and Teesside are all to Amesterdam Schiphol. Given KLM's choice of destinations from Schiphol its a way of getting people to use KLM as they can offer through tickets to most major countries in the world.

Back to the question though other than the extremely short services to Scottish Islands what is the shortest domestic flight in the UK between cities? I know there was once a Plymouth to Bristol flight back in 2006 but I can't think of any today.

I was at Newquay airport last week and a flight came in from Exeter.. Looked to be an Exeter to the Isles of Scilly with a stop off at Newquay...

 

[thenorthern]

Regarding airports its important to remember that there are probably less airports with scheduled flights in England now than there was 50 years ago although flight numbers have themselves increased dramatically since then. Many airports such as Barrow/Walney, Cambridge, Enniskillen and Shoreham previously had schedules flights and now don't and some airports such as Sunderland and Stoke-on-Trent airports have closed completely. I am told Stoke-on-Trent is the largest urban area without an airport serving the city.

 

[daodao]

I have always been amazed that in the 60's there were Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen flights. Does anyone have any more information on these, when did they finish?

They were useful for passengers travelling to Aberdeen from English provincial airports from which there were at the time no direct flights. The services from Glasgow/Edinburgh to the Northern Isles used to stop at Inverness/Wick or Aberdeen and were operated by smaller planes (Heralds/Viscounts/Avro 748s). Some flights even went Renfrew-Turnhouse-Dyce and then onto Grimsetter &/or Sumburgh; I remember as a child in the 1960s suggesting to my father, who was travelling from M/c Ringway to Aberdeen for a conference, to change at Edinburgh rather than Glasgow (as advised by the BEA booking clerk), as it was quicker and was 1 less stop.

Pretty sure there were flights from Dundee to Glasgow, Prestwick and Edinburgh too.
The Glasgow/ Edinburgh to Aberdeen flights lasted till late 90s if not early 2000s , they may have been going onto shetland or orkney .
More recently Edinburgh to Inverness lasted till around 4 years ago , im sure this used to go onto Kirkwall .
Edinburgh to Wick and Glasgow to Campbeltown are the last intra-mainland Scottish flights .

There is also an Aberdeen to Wick flight.

 

[AlterEgo]

I used to use connecting flights from Manchester to London but they became so unreliable and stress inducing that I now use National Express coaches. The train is unattractive due to peak hour fare issues, lack of luggage space and the lack of any direct bus or train service from Euston to Heathrow. Gatwick, Luton and Stansted are equally problematic.

If you’re using a “connecting flight”, I’m assume you mean you’re actually connecting. If you are, then provided you booked on the same ticket, you’ll always be covered if you miss the connection. Not so if you take a coach.

Taking the coach over the plane in that scenario is probably the most stressful thing you could do!

 

[daodao]

If you’re using a “connecting flight”, I’m assume you mean you’re actually connecting. If you are, then provided you booked on the same ticket, you’ll always be covered if you miss the connection. Not so if you take a coach.

Taking the coach over the plane in that scenario is probably the most stressful thing you could do!

Many airlines are strictly "point-to-point", particularly the low cost ones. London (alias British) Airways who operate domestic services to Heathrow but have otherwise abandoned UK regional airports, will facilitate through ticketing/connections through their London hub. I presume that KLM do the same via Schiphol. However, through ticketing of this nature is probably now the exception rather than the rule within the UK and Europe.

 

[AlterEgo]

Many airlines are strictly "point-to-point", particularly the low cost ones. London (alias British) Airways who operate domestic services to Heathrow but have otherwise abandoned UK regional airports, will facilitate through ticketing/connections through their London hub. I presume that KLM do the same via Schiphol. However, through ticketing of this nature is probably now the exception rather than the rule within the UK and Europe.

Seeing as the poster said he was travelling from Manchester to London to connect, he must be flying with British Airways. No other airline operates that route. (Unless you count Flybe to Southend)

It’s always much better to book all on one ticket.

 

[racklam]

Many airlines are strictly "point-to-point", particularly the low cost ones. London (alias British) Airways who operate domestic services to Heathrow but have otherwise abandoned UK regional airports, will facilitate through ticketing/connections through their London hub. I presume that KLM do the same via Schiphol. However, through ticketing of this nature is probably now the exception rather than the rule within the UK and Europe.

It's very much the rule for legacy carriers - it's usually also much cheaper to book 2 flights on 1 ticket as opposed to 2 separate flights.

Even some of the low cost carriers are looking at starting to provide connections onto long-haul flights, such as Easyjet with Norwegian at Gatwick and Ryanair with Aer Lingus at Dublin.

 

[thenorthern]

Regarding Manchester to Heathrow I have always been amazed at how poor rail connections at at London Heathrow Airport compared to other major airports.

Birmingham Airport is obviously the best connected by rail as Birmingham International has direct rail links to a large number of parts of the country. Heathrow on the other hand is only connected to London Paddington and a single line on the London Underground. I would say Southampton Airport even has better rail links despite the fact that Southampton Airport has about 1/40 of the passengers.

In most European countries the main airport serving the country such as Paris Charles De Gaulle, Frankfurt, and Amsterdam Schiphol has a connection to the intercity rail network serving the country which is something London Heathrow lacks.

 

[Altnabreac]

There are a lot more flights between London and Edinburgh than trains. Nearly twice as many in fact. However there are many more seats on the trains. Air has about 70% of the air/rail market on that flow.

To answer the OPs exam question, pretty much every domestic flight route that has a competing rail link will see more passengers in the air than on the rails. The most likely exceptions are:

London - Manchester
London - Leeds
London - Newcastle
London - Exeter
London - Cardiff
London - Dundee

... and the last one of those hides the likelihood that most Dundee - London travellers will go to Edinburgh airport and fly.

There's possibly a few 'cross country' routes that see more rail than air passengers, but I can't think of any.

Manchester - Edinburgh (100,000pa by air) and Manchester - Glasgow (45,000pa by air) both seem likely to be cross country routes where rail has a higher share than air.

Birmingham to Edinburgh / Manchester numbers are both around 250,000 pa by air so probably air has the majority.

Can't think of many other contenders.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you mean Birmingham and Manchester to Edinburgh there?

There are no flights from Birmingham to Manchester.