Trivia: Journeys that can be made between stations on one train without an official direct service

[xotGD]

Castleford and Glasshoughton to Featherstone, Streethouse and Wakey. Just stay on to Knottingley and back. Indeed, I have witnessed passengers being advised to do this, rather than bale at Monkhill, cross the bridge and fester.

 

[nw1]

An interesting one is Newbury to Manchester Piccadilly in 1982/83. That year, a morning commuter train to Paddington from the former then formed an IC service to the latter. (source: marshalling books from the BR Coaching Stock group on groups.io).

Or, on the same diagram, Newbury to Portsmouth Harbour via Paddington and Manchester Piccadilly - for that was where the coaching stock ended up.

Almost Weymouth-Portsmouth Harbour on some Sundays including today - if it weren't for a short ECS move where the train changes from one service to the other at, well, Cardiff Central. I'm sure there are have been/may still be similar services all the way to Brighton too, or changing services at Great Malvern.

Weymouth-Portsmouth Harbour and v.v. was possible via Waterloo too during the normal timetables in existence up to 2019. Happened as far back as the 442 days in the 90s, IIRC - basically as soon as 442s appeared on the Portsmouth Direct the possibility of interworking with Weymouths opened up.

Even before that there were some VEP diagrams which would work from Portsmouth to Waterloo and then form a Bournemouth '93' stopper, so Portsmouth to Bournemouth.

 

[JRT]

The North Bradford Electrics interwork at Leeds, so it's possible to do a through Kirkstall Forge —> Ilkley journey, however most tickets are not valid via Leeds!

 

[nw1]

I wonder what criteria they use to advertise something as through, if it's diagrammed that way?

Staying on the same line?
Not reversing?
Likely high number of through passengers?
Maximum wait time?
Consistent diagramming each hour, so you don't get a "messy" public timetable with through services some hours and not others?

In the 80s up to 1985/6, for example, the up Portsmouth-Waterloo '73/83' slow was booked 20 minute wait at Guildford, and for a time, from 1986/7 to 1988/9 IIRC, the down '73/83' was booked a massive 24 min wait there. Presumably these were advertised as through, as it was the same line, and the services worked through every off-peak hour so there was consistency.

By contrast, around 1989 the former '93' Waterloo-Bournemouth stopper was split at Southampton Central into two separate '93's, Waterloo-SOU and SOU-Wareham, with a long wait at SOU both ways. However this was NOT advertised as a through service. In some hours, the units didn't work through, but in some they did. So presumably in order to present a consistent pattern of service each hour, they didn't show ANY of them as through, even though in practice some of them (about half?) were.

 

[miklcct]

Almost Weymouth-Portsmouth Harbour on some Sundays including today - if it weren't for a short ECS move where the train changes from one service to the other at, well, Cardiff Central. I'm sure there are have been/may still be similar services all the way to Brighton too, or changing services at Great Malvern.

How is Cardiff Central en-route between Weymouth and Portsmouth?

Also, are there any 444s / 450s terminating at Southampton / Eastleigh on the mainline which will go to Portsmouth immediately afterwards?

 

[Dai Corner]

How is Cardiff Central en-route between Weymouth and Portsmouth?

Also, are there any 444s / 450s terminating at Southampton / Eastleigh on the mainline which will go to Portsmouth immediately afterwards?

The train works a Weymouth-Cardiff Central service followed by a Cardiff Central-Portsmouth Harbour one. Like many of the examples given passengers are detrained in between so a journey from Weymouth-Portsmouth without moving from your seat isn't possible.

 

[nw1]

How is Cardiff Central en-route between Weymouth and Portsmouth?

Presumably the diagram is such that a Weymouth-Cardiff then forms a Cardiff-Portsmouth.

How is Cardiff Central en-route between Weymouth and Portsmouth?

Also, are there any 444s / 450s terminating at Southampton / Eastleigh on the mainline which will go to Portsmouth immediately afterwards?

Not sure about now but in the normal timetables of the 2010s (certainly around 2013 or so) there was certainly an 8.450 in the late evening peak which went Waterloo-Southampton via Havant and then formed a semi-fast direct to Waterloo (the 2155, I think).

 

[faltskog36abba]

I boarded a 156 years ago from Manchester Victoria to Rochdale [via Oldham]. I was about to alight -When the guard changed the destination blind to [Blackpool North], As I had a day ranger -Back on I went to Bolton.

 

[james60059]

Just before covid struck, the 12:50 train from Fishguard Harbour to Cardiff Central became a service to Ebbw Vale Town (usually a Class 150). Nowadays it goes into Cardiff Canton once it arrives at Cardiff Central

 

[mm333]

Pre-COVID, the 1723 Lincoln-Leeds service got into Leeds at 1946 and then became the 1949 to Ribblehead. Because it was under the 10 minute minimum connection time at Leeds, that wouldn't have been a valid connection for someone wanting to do, say, Saxilby to Settle

 

[D6975]

There's a Morecambe Leeds service that goes back up to Carlisle just 10 mins after arriving in Leeds. 16:38/16:48

 

[JRT]

But what journey would you want to do on this? Giggleswick to Settle is easily walkable in much less time.

There's a Morecambe Leeds service that goes back up to Carlisle just 10 mins after arriving in Leeds. 16:38/16:48

 

[swt_passenger]

Not sure about now but in the normal timetables of the 2010s (certainly around 2013 or so) there was certainly an 8.450 in the late evening peak which went Waterloo-Southampton via Havant and then formed a semi-fast direct to Waterloo (the 2155, I think).

Back just a few years (or maybe before 2015?) there was still that single Southampton to Portsmouth and return stopper operated by a 159 just after the morning peak, I think the 450 that replaced it at Southampton had come from somewhere in service, I’ll have to look at the old CWNs though.

Did that 159 itself initially arrive at Southampton as a passenger service from Basingstoke? I do remember around 2013/14, after the return trip on the Pompey stopper the 159 then joined onto the back of an ex-Romsey 158 in P3, and I think it therefore provided an unadvertised through service to Salisbury from all the stations between Portsmouth and Southampton. Later it ran as an ECS to Salisbury just behind the ex-Romsey train. But just a few years later all those fairly random 158/159 South Hants locals had been replaced by 450s.

 

[miklcct]

Presumably the diagram is such that a Weymouth-Cardiff then forms a Cardiff-Portsmouth.

This isn't a normal journey where passengers will take reasonably though. The Lymington - Pokesdown example I gave before is an example where it's the expected routing for a passenger using a through ticket, that an unofficial one-seat ride is given.

I'm more interested in journeys, listed in journey planners as the fastest requiring a "change" but being an unofficial direct service instead.

Not sure about now but in the normal timetables of the 2010s (certainly around 2013 or so) there was certainly an 8.450 in the late evening peak which went Waterloo-Southampton via Havant and then formed a semi-fast direct to Waterloo (the 2155, I think).

That train, departing 19:15 Waterloo as a deviation of the normal Portsmouth stopper pattern, now return to depot in the current timetable.

 

[nw1]

Back just a few years (or maybe before 2015?) there was still that single Southampton to Portsmouth and return stopper operated by a 159 just after the morning peak, I think the 450 that replaced it at Southampton had come from somewhere in service, I’ll have to look at the old CWNs though.

Did that 159 itself initially arrive at Southampton as a passenger service from Basingstoke? I do remember around 2013/14, after the return trip on the Pompey stopper the 159 then joined onto the back of an ex-Romsey 158 in P3, and I think it therefore provided an unadvertised through service to Salisbury from all the stations between Portsmouth and Southampton. Later it ran as an ECS to Salisbury just behind the ex-Romsey train. But just a few years later all those fairly random 158/169 South Hants locals had been replaced by 450s.

Yes, I remember that, I think it was the 1040 or so inbound arrival at Southampton?

I have the feeling the return working to Portsmouth was detached from a down Poole semi-fast, so probably the 0839 from Waterloo.

That doesn't seem so long ago, but maybe it's further back than I think. I'm sure the detached portion of the 0839 had by 2013 become a driver training run to Guildford via Havant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was the case that Ormskirk to Blackpool South was an unadvertised through service across Preston, but the other way not. However, this is no longer the case as an extra unit was added to the diagrams (to resolve poor punctuality, and because the unit was spare all day at Preston anyway), meaning the unit goes out of service at Preston now and lays over there for an hour or so.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, I remember that, I think it was the 1040 or so inbound arrival at Southampton?

I have the feeling the return working to Portsmouth was detached from a down Poole semi-fast, so probably the 0839 from Waterloo.

That doesn't seem so long ago, but maybe it's further back than I think. I'm sure the detached portion of the 0839 had by 2013 become a driver training run to Guildford via Havant.

Another odd one I've remembered is that in about 2017/18 or so there was a morning peak stopper from Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton and back operated by a 444. It left Southampton for Portsmouth Harbour around 0750, and then formed a Waterloo service from Portsmouth Harbour. So I think given the ability to double back at the harbour that would have effectively provided an unadvertised through service?

 

[nw1]

Another odd one I've remembered is that in about 2017/18 or so there was a morning peak stopper from Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton and back operated by a 444. It left Southampton for Portsmouth Harbour around 0750, and then formed a Waterloo service from Portsmouth Harbour. So I think given the ability to double back at the harbour that would have effectively provided an unadvertised through service?

Yes, perhaps. I do know that interworking of the Southampton-Portsmouth and Portsmouth-Eastleigh (and onwards) services was commonplace in the slam-door era, as the timings fit. From 1997 (perhaps earlier) to 2004 the Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh and Portsmouth-Southampton generally interworked, and in the DEMU era, the equivalent services also interworked. I think (not sure), in the first year of electrification in 1990/91 they interworked too. However in 1991/92 they used Greyhound CIGs for the Waterloo-Fareham-Portsmouth and the two services were separated, much as today - as the use of Greyhound CIGs on the Solent stoppers was presumably considered a waste.

Presumably the reason they don't interwork now (even though the timings still fit) is that it would involve several 444 workings on the Portsmouth-Southampton stoppers, which could not be accommodated on the platforms. By contrast in the electric slam-door days everything was 4-car and in diesel days everything was 3-car.

 

[jamesst]

Monday to Friday only the 0731/0801 Ellesmere Port to Liverpool services continue onwards to Chester arriving at 0856/0926 respectively. This means you can travel direct from Ellesmere Port to Chester!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Monday to Friday only the 0731/0801 Ellesmere Port to Liverpool services continue onwards to Chester arriving at 0856/0926 respectively. This means you can travel direct from Ellesmere Port to Chester!

Think the 0717 Ellesmere Port to Chester (via Liverpool) working also does so, arriving Chester at 0839.

P.S. Aren't these advertised though as through Ellesmere Port -> Chester workings, i.e. they are actually official direct services?

P.P.S. With a £4.60 Anytime Day Single (route via Hooton) could you legitimately stay on one of these three (?) trains into Liverpool and then out to Chester, rather than be obliged to interchange at Hooton?

 

[Watershed]

Think the 0717 Ellesmere Port to Chester (via Liverpool) working also does so, arriving Chester at 0839.

P.S. Aren't these advertised though as through Ellesmere Port -> Chester workings, i.e. they are actually official direct services?

Yes, these are all advertised through workings. I don't think any Merseyrail services other than those going to/from ECS change headcodes in the tunnel. That's likely just down to practicality - it would require be the driver to re-register with the new headcode on the GSM-R, thus increasing dwell times and introducing the risk of a train failing to re-register, thus causing delays.

P.P.S. With a £4.60 Anytime Day Single (route via Hooton) could you legitimately stay on one of these three (?) trains into Liverpool and then out to Chester, rather than be obliged to interchange at Hooton?

Yes, that would be fine. The chance of a check onboard is pretty low anyway, but you would be able to obtain an itinerary, should you desire. You wouldn't be able to break your journey in Liverpool though.

 

[507020]

P.P.S. With a £4.60 Anytime Day Single (route via Hooton) could you legitimately stay on one of these three (?) trains into Liverpool and then out to Chester, rather than be obliged to interchange at Hooton?

It is more than £5.60, but a Merseyrail day saver may be better, given that you couldn’t be questioned for travelling to Liverpool and back.

Yes, these are all advertised through workings. I don't think any Merseyrail services other than those going to/from ECS change headcodes in the tunnel. That's likely just down to practicality - it would require be the driver to re-register with the new headcode on the GSM-R, thus increasing dwell times and introducing the risk of a train failing to re-register, thus causing delays.

Reversing Northern Line services (Ormskirk and Kirby) change headcodes in the tunnel section, but not going round the loop. That reminds me that in one of the now gone Covid-era timetables, Ormskirk and Kirkby services interworked so you could effectively have got a through train from Ormskirk to Kirkby via Liverpool Central, which on a low frequency service may have been faster (or no slower) than waiting at Sandhills. There was also briefly Ormskirk - Hunts Cross with Southport services terminating in the tunnel.

 

[D6975]

But what journey would you want to do on this? Giggleswick to Settle is easily walkable in much less time.

Read the O/P, no mention of why you would want to do it, only is it possible to do it.

 

[Tester]

Pwllheli dep 1537, Machynlleth 1755/1801, Aberystwyth 1827/1831, Borth arr 1845. Nothing artificial about this one - it's the best available itinerary!

The three trains are shown separately in the timetable, but the traincrew happily advised at the outset to stay on the train for the entire journey.

What surprised me was that I wasn't the only one doing it!

 

[jamesst]

Think the 0717 Ellesmere Port to Chester (via Liverpool) working also does so, arriving Chester at 0839.

P.S. Aren't these advertised though as through Ellesmere Port -> Chester workings, i.e. they are actually official direct services?

P.P.S. With a £4.60 Anytime Day Single (route via Hooton) could you legitimately stay on one of these three (?) trains into Liverpool and then out to Chester, rather than be obliged to interchange at Hooton?

Sort of. The headcode remains the same. However the internal and platform display screens will only advertise the inbound services (like all over Loop bound services) as final destination Liverpool Central.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Sort of. The headcode remains the same. However the internal and platform display screens will only advertise the inbound services (like all over Loop bound services) as final destination Liverpool Central.

Can quite understand why such trains would have 'Liverpool Central' as their advertised destination on their way towards Birkenhead/Liverpool, as from most intermediate stations on the line in from Ellesmere Port beyond Little Sutton, the quickest journey opportunities for Chester would probably be by travelling from opposite (Southbound) platforms; clearly, however, for these three particular morning trains in question, Liverpool Central is not their final destination.

 

[AY City]

Yes, that would be fine. The chance of a check onboard is pretty low anyway, but you would be able to obtain an itinerary, should you desire. You wouldn't be able to break your journey in Liverpool though.

I wouldn't want to try it regardless, but is this due to not being allowed to break one's journey if using the direct train rule or another restriction?

 

[Springs Branch]

Think the 0717 Ellesmere Port to Chester (via Liverpool) working also does so, arriving Chester at 0839.

P.S. Aren't these advertised though as through Ellesmere Port -> Chester workings, i.e. they are actually official direct services?

P.P.S. With a £4.60 Anytime Day Single (route via Hooton) could you legitimately stay on one of these three (?) trains into Liverpool and then out to Chester, rather than be obliged to interchange at Hooton?

Speaking of Chester, ticket validity & 'going the long way around' reminded me of the situation that comes up from time to time, depending on timetable revisions, when Northern link their Southport - Wigan - Manchester - Northwich - Chester services.

In the past these trains were advertised in timetables, destination blinds etc. as running Southport - Chester. But you couldn't legitimately travel end-to-end on them without some combination of split tickets.

Certainly, there's no problem buying one ticket for a journey between Southport and Chester - but they get around Condition 13.1.1 of National Rail Conditions of Carriage ("valid on any direct train between the station(s) shown on your Ticket") by restricting all such tickets to "via Birkenhead" and not offering "Any Permitted" fares.

Not sure what happened if some well-meaning Chester resident had been for a day out in Southport, went through the barriers at SOP on the way home and saw a waiting train with "Chester" on the destination blind. Not only a long and scenic ride home (probably on a Pacer the last time this might have happened), but a hefty excess ticket too!

 

[Watershed]

I wouldn't want to try it regardless, but is this due to not being allowed to break one's journey if using the direct train rule or another restriction?

Yes - it's not permitted under any other rule, so you are reliant on the direct trains rule:

Your ticket ... will be valid on any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket

Whilst there's an argument to say that as long the trains you take run direct between your origin and destination, then it's fine to break your journey, but I don't think this is the intention of the clause.

Accordingly, if the matter were to proceed to Court, I would not be confident of success. Whereas taking a direct train from A to B without changing is unambiguously OK, and indeed you'll get journey planners to validate this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do think that Southport-Chester example is silly, but more that there should have been "route Manchester" tickets for it rather than creating a stack of anomalies by making very cheap Merseyrail tickets valid via Manchester. It is largely avoided now by most Merseyrail journeys being on zonal tickets rather than point to point ones, I suppose, but a fare really should exist for any and all direct journeys that can be made.

I doubt very many people did it by accident, if anyone at all - people know what a Merseyrail train looks like* and many locals of that area see other trains as a bit mythical and complicated.

* Give or take the period of about 5 years when a Merseytravel branded 150/2 could have shown up, though in my observation those mostly didn't appear there, Regional Railways or GMPTE branded units were more commonly observed.