Trivia: Journeys that go in and out of counties (read first post)

[GrimsbyPacer]

I think the question was clear that 1974 counties be used. In the case of Stockport it was a county in it's own right before Greater Manchester, hence Stockport County FC. Counties have always varied over time as originally northern Lancashire was part of Yorkshire and there were counties like Hullshire and Hexhamshire.
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Alternatively services between Scunthorpe and Lincoln commence in Yellerbelly county and terminate in Yellerbelly county, but pass through Sth Yorks and Nottinghamshire.

In which case Hull to Grimsby by train passes South Yorkshire.

The 1974 boundary puts Scunny in Humberside and it wasn't put back, I'm not suggesting that locals aren't also Yellowbellies as the term started in Cleethorpes.

 

[thenorthern]

A very small amount of the Settle and Carlisle line between Dent and Garsdale crosses into North Yorkshire despite both stations being in Cumbria.

Also the CrossCountry trains from Newcastle to Reading pass through Kingsbury in Warwickshire but don't stop then into the West Midlands then back into Warwickshire at Leamington Spa.

Also the 05:34 train from Shrewsbury to Rugeley Trent Valley goes through Codsall and Billbrook in Staffordshire then back to Staffordshire for the end of its journey.

Finally the Liverpool to Norwich trains operated by East Midlands Trains that call at intermediate stations run into Derbyshire at Chinley then into South Yorkshire at Chesterfield then back into Derbyshire for Chesterfield.

 

[High Dyke]

In which case Hull to Grimsby by train passes South Yorkshire.

The 1974 boundary puts Scunny in Humberside and it wasn't put back, I'm not suggesting that locals aren't also Yellowbellies as the term started in Cleethorpes.

Hull to Grimsby by train does pass through South Yorkshire (changing at Doncaster)

 

[40129]

Apologies for continuing this off topic diversion, but neither the above nor the earlier examples are quite as silly as Aberystwyth, which has an SY postcode, from a different country!

Beat me to it!

I know this is (slightly) off-topic but when I worked in the manual sorting section of SY sorting office, the sacks for SY10 (Oswestry) and SY23 (Aberystwyth) were adjacent to each other (goodness knows why). I lost count of the number of bundles of mail for Aberystwyth that ended up accidently going to Oswestry and vice versa!

 

[L&Y Robert]

Any train from Oxford or Bicester to Banbury will nip into Northamptonshire just south of Aynho Junction and leave it just north of King's Sutton

When I worked in Northampton, the County Planning Department included the station at Kings Sutton in THEIR Northamptonshire Transport Strategy, irrespective of the fact that anyone using said station would be going to/coming from somewhere not in Northamptonshire. It was referred to as being "In the Rural West",

And beyond that, "There be dragons"!

 

[Proud Salopian]

Once again I have my head in my hands and I draw a deep breath as I read another thread on the dear old internet where so many seem to get into such difficulties over counties!

Firstly, ignore postal addresses. Royal Mail are not in charge of counties. They were (note: WERE) part of addresses only to help post get to the correct sorting and delivery offices, especially in the days before postcodes were so widely used. The county used was that of the post town (which is why you had many examples of villages in county X but were addressed to county Y as their post town was in county Y) and the counties used sometimes did not change as counties in the real world did (most notably in 1974 and again in the mid-90s). Counties are no longer necessary in addresses - only the post town and post code are required by Royal Mail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_counties_of_the_United_Kingdom

Secondly, on "old" versus "new" - counties, boroughs, etc, have been changing boundaries and have been created and abolished for centuries. Obviously some have stood the test of time, others have come and gone, and some have returned from the dead. What makes life more complicated is that at the moment we have different systems of local government in place in each of the four parts of the UK.

Talking specifically about England, we have two types of county in use right now: actual local government counties (these come in various guises) and the geographic or "ceremonial" counties. The two actually fit together - ceremonial counties are composed of one or more local government counties... the ONLY exception being Durham/North Yorkshire which divides the borough of Stockton-on-Tees along the River Tees. Two grey areas exist regarding counties: Greater London and the Isles of Scilly - they lie outside the local government county system, and in terms of ceremonial counties Greater London has two (the City of London, and then the 32 London boroughs as the other) whilst the Isles of Scilly are part of Cornwall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_and_non-metropolitan_counties_of_England

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_counties_of_England

Now, the thing is, all sorts of places are "counties" in a purely local government sense - all metropolitan counties, all non-metropolitan counties AND unitary authorities outside Berkshire (don't ask), Greater London, the Isles of Scilly and the metropolitan counties. Because of this, increasingly the geographic/ceremonial counties are used. They cover all of England and they more closely match the historic/traditional counties many relate to.

I'll give an example of all the above regarding the question of the thread and my county of Shropshire. If we're talking in terms of local government counties, then Telford & Wrekin (a unitary district - it was made a county in local government terms in 1998 to become 'unitary') cuts in between Shifnal and Shrewsbury on the Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury line. In geographic/ceremonial terms, this doesn't happen as Telford & Wrekin is part of Shropshire. This is of course what the vast majority of people in Shropshire consider correct - the idea that Telford & Wrekin is either a county in its own right or outside Shropshire is absurd. The only (presently functioning) railway line then which goes in and out of Shropshire is the HOWL, which enters Herefordshire once or twice (very briefly) between Hopton Heath and Bucknell.

Apologies for the lecture! But it does frustrate me how people just don't know (or think they know, but don't) about counties. And the endless arguments... especially involving the bloody Royal Mail..!

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

A very small amount of the Settle and Carlisle line between Dent and Garsdale crosses into North Yorkshire despite both stations being in Cumbria.

Also the CrossCountry trains from Newcastle to Reading pass through Kingsbury in Warwickshire but don't stop then into the West Midlands then back into Warwickshire at Leamington Spa.

Also the 05:34 train from Shrewsbury to Rugeley Trent Valley goes through Codsall and Billbrook in Staffordshire then back to Staffordshire for the end of its journey.

Finally the Liverpool to Norwich trains operated by East Midlands Trains that call at intermediate stations run into Derbyshire at Chinley then into South Yorkshire at Chesterfield then back into Derbyshire for Chesterfield.

Once again I have my head in my hands and I draw a deep breath as I read another thread on the dear old internet where so many seem to get into such difficulties over counties!

Firstly, ignore postal addresses. Royal Mail are not in charge of counties. They were (note: WERE) part of addresses only to help post get to the correct sorting and delivery offices, especially in the days before postcodes were so widely used. The county used was that of the post town (which is why you had many examples of villages in county X but were addressed to county Y as their post town was in county Y) and the counties used sometimes did not change as counties in the real world did (most notably in 1974 and again in the mid-90s). Counties are no longer necessary in addresses - only the post town and post code are required by Royal Mail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_counties_of_the_United_Kingdom

Secondly, on "old" versus "new" - counties, boroughs, etc, have been changing boundaries and have been created and abolished for centuries. Obviously some have stood the test of time, others have come and gone, and some have returned from the dead. What makes life more complicated is that at the moment we have different systems of local government in place in each of the four parts of the UK.

Talking specifically about England, we have two types of county in use right now: actual local government counties (these come in various guises) and the geographic or "ceremonial" counties. The two actually fit together - ceremonial counties are composed of one or more local government counties... the ONLY exception being Durham/North Yorkshire which divides the borough of Stockton-on-Tees along the River Tees. Two grey areas exist regarding counties: Greater London and the Isles of Scilly - they lie outside the local government county system, and in terms of ceremonial counties Greater London has two (the City of London, and then the 32 London boroughs as the other) whilst the Isles of Scilly are part of Cornwall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_and_non-metropolitan_counties_of_England

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_counties_of_England

Now, the thing is, all sorts of places are "counties" in a purely local government sense - all metropolitan counties, all non-metropolitan counties AND unitary authorities outside Berkshire (don't ask), Greater London, the Isles of Scilly and the metropolitan counties. Because of this, increasingly the geographic/ceremonial counties are used. They cover all of England and they more closely match the historic/traditional counties many relate to.

I'll give an example of all the above regarding the question of the thread and my county of Shropshire. If we're talking in terms of local government counties, then Telford & Wrekin (a unitary district - it was made a county in local government terms in 1998 to become 'unitary') cuts in between Shifnal and Shrewsbury on the Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury line. In geographic/ceremonial terms, this doesn't happen as Telford & Wrekin is part of Shropshire. This is of course what the vast majority of people in Shropshire consider correct - the idea that Telford & Wrekin is either a county in its own right or outside Shropshire is absurd. The only (presently functioning) railway line then which goes in and out of Shropshire is the HOWL, which enters Herefordshire once or twice (very briefly) between Hopton Heath and Bucknell.

Apologies for the lecture! But it does frustrate me how people just don't know (or think they know, but don't) about counties. And the endless arguments... especially involving the bloody Royal Mail..!

You forgot about Counties Corporate that used to exist! I knew all that aswell also ceremonial counties are officially called lieutenancies. Although unitary authorites can be counties like Northumberland and the Isle of Wright, I don't think Telford and Wrekin has county status. If a new unitary authority is made it is in the same county as it was unless county status is given. Wikipedia often makes mistakes. Otherwise why would East Riding of Yorkshire council be given county status but not North Lincolnshire when all unitary authorites have full local responsibillity. This is because of political oversight and messing with the local government system.

 

[oglord]

CLARIFICATION: Please only use modern boundaries, those used since 1974. Thank you.

There is no such thing as "modern boundaries" as used "since 1974".Taking Lancashire as an example there is the 1974 administrative Lancashire, then there is the 2014 administrative Lancashire, both of which are different and "used since 1974". Then there are "modern counties" such as "Blackburn with Darwen" which are nonsensical from a geographical point of view.

The only Lancashire that should be used in a geographical context is: http://wikishire.co.uk/map/#/centre=53.702,-2.579/zoom=9/base=outline

 

[LexyBoy]

The only Lancashire that should be used in a geographical context is: http://wikishire.co.uk/map/#/centre=53.702,-2.579/zoom=9/base=outline

Define "geographical context" - political? historial? physical?

Counties are by their nature administrative constructs, so the historic counties are not relevant in day-to-day use. Whilst some people living in Greater Manchester consider themselves Lancastrian, and some living in Richmond or Kingston would say they live in Surrey, very few would say Birmingham is in Warwickshire, Abingdon is in Berkshire, or Hoxton is in Middlesex.

If you're talking about past events, then use the county boundaries of the time. If you're talking about the present, use the ceremonial county boundaries (or unitary authority / borough boundaries depending what's most appropriate).

 

[Marton]

Anyway, not a train but the Sheffield Supertram does venture into Derbyshire for a hundred yards or so on the Halfway line, before coming back into South Yorkshire (or the "West Riding" for the benefit of Ash Bridge )

But that part of the WR was Derbyshire until the 1920s or 30s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Deerfold]

Travelling on the Great Western mainline from Reading towards Paddington you go from Maidenhead (Berkshire) - Taplow (Buckinghamshire) - Burnham (Berks) - Slough (Berks) - Langley (Berks) - Iver (Bucks) - West Drayton (LB Hillingdon, formerly Middlesex).

Burnham is in Bucks, specifically South Bucks (I used to live there - but my nearest station was Taplow)
Slough is a unitary authority within Berkshire as is Windsor and Maidenhead.

The trains do swap from Berks to Bucks and back again and back again.

Not sure if they've sorted it out yet, but when I lived in Burnham, the council offices for South Bucks were within Slough boundaries and the council offices for Slough were within Buckinghamshire.

I don't think I was unusal in going to the wrong council office the first time I needed to visit.

 

[Andyjs247]

Burnham is in Bucks, specifically South Bucks (I used to live there - but my nearest station was Taplow)
Slough is a unitary authority within Berkshire as is Windsor and Maidenhead.

The trains do swap from Berks to Bucks and back again and back again.

Not sure if they've sorted it out yet, but when I lived in Burnham, the council offices for South Bucks were within Slough boundaries and the council offices for Slough were within Buckinghamshire.

I don't think I was unusal in going to the wrong council office the first time I needed to visit.

Burnham station is in Slough though. I agree it sounds a bit strange to say Burnham and Berkshire together - Burnham, Bucks sounds better.

 

[Deerfold]

Burnham station is in Slough though. I agree it sounds a bit strange to say Burnham and Berkshire together - Burnham, Bucks sounds better.

So it is, I'd forgotten that - though it's quite close. Of course Burnham itself is in Bucks.

Wonder if it's worth starting a new trivia question about how many stations are not in the same county as the city/town/village they ostensibly serve.

 

[LWB]

I'm a Yorkshireman - your type isn't welcome in this thread.

I don't see the point in this - why should the game be needlessly outdated? You wanted clarification, and I'll give it to you.
No to the 1974 rule. Current counties, please!

Totally disagree| And that's coming from a born and bred Yorkshireman who married a Lancashire lass from Ulverston and who still lives in Lancashire 'over the sands'. Cumbria has as much bearing to us as Humberside had to the folks in the East Riding.

 

[Chris M]

Wonder if it's worth starting a new trivia question about how many stations are not in the same county as the city/town/village they ostensibly serve.

The prime example of this is Knighton. The station is in England (Shropshire) but serves Knighton in Wales (Powys).

 

[Deerfold]

Stockport is in Greater Manchester. By your logic, Saddleworth is still in Yorkshire.

And they wouldn't be alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddleworth_White_Rose_Society

http://whiterose.saddleworth.net/stillpart.htm

I have a couple of friends who live together in Uppermill. One is adamant that Saddleworth is in Yorkshire, the other that it is in Lancashire. Neither will admit it is in Greater Manchester.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's funny how often people's views on traditional/modern counties correlate with the interpretation that places their house in an area sounding more pleasant.

 

[thenorthern]

The amount of people as well who think Burton upon Trent is in the East Midlands because it has a DE postcode and it also must be in Derbyshire for the same reason. They forget that Tamworth has a B postcode Lichfield has a WS postcode and Wombourne has a WV postcode and they are all in Staffordshire.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The amount of people as well who think Burton upon Trent is in the East Midlands because it has a DE postcode and it also must be in Derbyshire for the same reason. They forget that Tamworth has a B postcode Lichfield has a WS postcode and Wombourne has a WV postcode and they are all in Staffordshire.

Most people in Burton have a Derbyshire background. People there speak with a Derbyshire accent and is surrounded by Derbyshire on 2 sides. BBC Radio Derby also covers the town and Derby and Swadlincote are the closest towns. The postcode doesn't mean anything as the postal county on the post will not be Derbyshire.

 

[Proud Salopian]

You forgot about Counties Corporate that used to exist!

I didn't "forget" I just didn't write about them as they have nothing to do with modern-day local government or ceremonial counties.

Although unitary authorites can be counties like Northumberland and the Isle of Wright, I don't think Telford and Wrekin has county status. If a new unitary authority is made it is in the same county as it was unless county status is given. Wikipedia often makes mistakes. Otherwise why would East Riding of Yorkshire council be given county status but not North Lincolnshire when all unitary authorites have full local responsibillity. This is because of political oversight and messing with the local government system.

No, you misunderstand what most unitary authorities are - they are either a county that has also become a district (such as Northumberland) or a district that has also become a county (such as Telford & Wrekin).

Telford and Wrekin was made a non-metropolitan county in 1998 (it was prior to that a non-metropolitan district only). It was also later granted borough status, which is what most people describe it as (ie "the borough of Telford and Wrekin"). This is quite common with districts that have become unitary authorities - they are granted borough status (if they didn't already have such status). It results in quite a neat system in many ceremonial counties, such as Cheshire, which now consists of four boroughs.

The exceptions are the following unitary authorities: metropolitan boroughs, the districts of Berkshire, the Isles of Scilly and the Boroughs and City of London. None of these are counties (except that the City of London is a ceremonial county).

You seem to be confusing ceremonial counties and local government counties - East Riding of Yorkshire is a ceremonial county and consists of two unitary authorities (both of which are a non-metropolitan district and a non-metropolitan county combined) namely East Riding of Yorkshire, and Kingston-upon-Hull.

Wikipedia is actually very accurate in these matters - it might however take patience to get to grips with it all fully.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I
Telford and Wrekin was made a non-metropolitan county in 1998 (it was prior to that a non-metropolitan district only). It was also later granted borough status, which is what most people describe it as (ie "the borough of Telford and Wrekin"). This is quite common with districts that have become unitary authorities - they are granted borough status (if they didn't already have such status). It results in quite a neat system in many ceremonial counties, such as Cheshire, which now consists of four boroughs.

The exceptions are the following unitary authorities: metropolitan boroughs, the districts of Berkshire, the Isles of Scilly and the Boroughs and City of London. None of these are counties (except that the City of London is a ceremonial county).

You seem to be confusing ceremonial counties and local government counties - East Riding of Yorkshire is a ceremonial county and consists of two unitary authorities (both of which are a non-metropolitan district and a non-metropolitan county combined) namely East Riding of Yorkshire, and Kingston-upon-Hull.

Wikipedia is actually very accurate in these matters - it might however take patience to get to grips with it all fully.

So you are saying that Grimsby's county is North East Lincolnshire rather than Humberside or Lincolnshire? The area has borough status, does that make it a modern day county borough?

 

[rmt4ever]

Im sure there used to be a once a day or something LT service, which departed Barking (sidings) went around the circle and back up to Barking before terminating in the bay road. So it would have left Essex, into London, then back into Essex on the same journey.

 

[dgl]

A similar situation happens in uplyme which is essentially a continuation of Lyme Regis. All houses have DT postcodes and Dorset written on letters but it is officially in Devon.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I thought I'd found one at Brandon, in Suffolk, however as OpenStreetMap shows, the Norfolk / Suffolk county border sneaks around the railway station to exclude it from this category.

Heading east towards Norwich, trains leave Cambridgeshire and enter Suffolk just east of Shippea Hill. The line enters Norfolk about 1km west of Brandon station, re-enters Suffolk for about 100m before crossing the A1065 and re-entering Norfolk for Brandon station itself. All but a slice of Brandon is in Suffolk.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The amount of people as well who think Burton upon Trent is in the East Midlands because it has a DE postcode and it also must be in Derbyshire for the same reason. They forget that Tamworth has a B postcode Lichfield has a WS postcode and Wombourne has a WV postcode and they are all in Staffordshire.

Buxton, of course, is in Derbyshire, but comes under the SK17 postcode :roll:

 

[unlevel42]

Please, do we need any more postcode discrepancies?

There are hundreds and hundreds of them and as has been said they never were intended to reflect county boundaries.

 

[stut]

And Glencoe has a Paisley postcode...

Half of Scotland has a Paisley postcode! As a Buddy, I like to think of this as some kind of imperialism...

 

[backontrack]

Are we talking the same county for departure and arrival stations? That's the way i interpreted the posting by the OP. If so their example doesn't work because the train starts in Cambridgeshire and ends in Lincolnshire.

No, it doesn't have to start and end in the same county, if it's a longer journey.

Any journey that travels out of one county, into another, and back into the first one counts.

Services that exit one county, travel through more than one other county and back into the original county are allowed too.

This is why my example works. The train travels out of Lincolnshire, into Rutland and back into Lincolnshire. The stations at each end don't have to be in any of the counties. As long as the line exits one county, enters another, and eventually re-enters the original county, it works.

Counties and authorities are the ones used since 1974.

Hopefully, we're now all appropriately 'backontrack'.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

Using the pre-1190 boundaries, the York-Blackpool service starts in Yorkshire, enters Cheshire somewhere near Todmorden, then re-enters Yorkshire just South of Preston.

However, as Blackpool didn't exist in 1190, I presume the service would be CAPED (or possibly PINED) at Preston

The #59 bus from Manchester to Rushcroft technically passes through both Bury and Rochdale on its way to Oldham.

 

[Wyvern]

There are no regular passenger trains at the southern end of the Erewash Valley any more, but if say, you travelled from Nottingham to Chesterfield, you would join at Trowell and cross the Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire border several times by the time you got to Langley Mill.